CBE 95: Crunch Time

[Dpauley23]

Kush77 wrote:

Fred wrote:

Just noticed that Sam talked about the Kemp question in his last mailbag:
How close were the Pippen for Kemp in 1995 deal

 

[Dpauley23]

Kush77 wrote:

Fred wrote:

Just noticed that Sam talked about the Kemp question in his last mailbag:
How close were the Pippen for Kemp in 1995 deal happening or the Pippen for T-mac and Van Horn deal in 1998? I still believe we 3 peat from 1996-1998 with Kemp over Pippen. Regarding 1998 I believe we still can win with both Van Horn and T-mac (although he wasn't great at the time). - Larry A. Barron

Sam: Never know, eh. The Pippen deal in 1994 was done for Kemp. The Bulls were convinced Jordan wasn’t coming back and relations with Horace Grant had gone bad. Kemp was a huge star at the time. But the Supersonics fans were so upset—it’s hard to believe this happened—that when word leaked of the deal they so flooded the team with objections because Pippen from his playoff walkout in 1994 was viewed as such a bad guy, way worse than Kemp, they didn’t want him on the team. Seattle had agreed and backed out. Kemp, of course, went downhill eventually with paternity cases and huge weight issues. The Bulls got Rodman as the final piece. I’m not sure what would have occurred, but Kemp still was great when the Bulls played Seattle in the 1996 Finals. And there was some hook in there that would have enabled the Bulls to get Eddie Jones in the draft. That should have been enough to replace Pippen and keep winning. As for Pippen and McGrady, Reinsdorf killed that deal. Krause wanted to begin the makeover, and if he had maybe the Bulls wouldn’t have fallen so far and so quickly after 1998. He was set on drafting McGrady, who was quickly great in Toronto as in that era he also was a great defender. I don’t recall all the details, but Van Horn was a pretty good player and that would have been the time to deal Pippen in retrospect, especially the way he sat out the first half of the 1997-98 season because he had surgery late because he was mad at the team and wanted a few months off. But Reinsdorf wanted to keep the team together to go for the championship and overruled the proposal. In 1998, I’m certain, he would have again. And did. I know all the stuff Krause said, but I also know Jordan was told if he returned for the 1998-99 season the franchise would bring back all the players and Jordan could have the coach he wanted. Jordan did not want to play anymore then no matter what revisionist history you hear.

Here's aan article from the non-trade of Pippen and Kemp.

On a side not, look at the author - J.A. Adande. Did he work for the Sun-Times? I don't recall that. Or did he just cover this deal or the draft and wrote something for the Sun-Times

Bulls Spring No Surprises - Pippen Trade Fizzles - Simpkins Team's Top Pick
Chicago Sun-Times - Thursday, June 30, 1994
Author: J. A. Adande

It seems hard to believe, but the biggest news to come out of NBA draft day was that Scottie Pippen still is a Bull.

There was a time that seemed to be one of the few safe assumptions in this summer of change for the team, but his status had come into doubt after a flurry of trade rumors this week. The strongest rumor had him going to Seattle with the Bulls' No. 21 draft pick in exchange for Shawn Kemp , Ricky Pierce and the Sonics' No. 11 pick.

That deal, or anything resembling it, was quashed yesterday and the Bulls wound up making 6-9 Providence forward Dickey Simpkins their top draft choice with the 21st selection. By drafting a power forward - their second in a row after picking Corie Blount last year - the Bulls gave another indication they don't like their chances of re-signing Horace Grant and aren't high on Scott Williams, another Bulls free-agent power forward.

The Bulls chose unheralded Kris Bruton of Benedict College in the second round.

Whose idea was the Pippen trade and who called it off? That depends on whether you believe Bulls general manager Jerry Krause or Seattle coach George Karl.

"We were really surprised when Chicago brought the deal to us," Karl said. "We thought about it and now we can move on."

"First of all, we did not seek to trade Scottie Pippen ," said Krause, contrary to the statements of several NBA general managers this week. "We listened to offers that we would for any great player. We had to be overwhelmed to make a deal. We were not overwhelmed. We decided not to trade Scottie Pippen ."

Asked when the trade died, Karl wasn't specific.

"It died sometime today," he said.

The expectations and subsequent letdown might have had something to do with the chaotic situation of Seattle's front office. Karl and Wally Walker, a former Seattle player and broadcaster who was brought in to serve as an adviser, were making the decisions.

Pippen seemed to make sense for Seattle. At 28, he is a perfect fit for Karl's aggressive defensive style and fast-break attack.

But any deal reportedly had to have the approval of Seattle owner Barry Ackerly, and he might have been dissuaded by the unpopularity of the proposed trade among the Seattle fans.

Walker said the trade talks won't resurface. "I feel pretty safe in saying that it's dead, and I will stand by that," he said.

"We were more listeners than active pursuers. The trade ultimately was called off because of Shawn. There was some back-and-forth - but when you cut through all of that, we wanted him to be here."

So, the Bulls have Pippen , already moody throughout the season and sure to be unhappy about reports he was being shopped around the league. They also have to contend with Pippen 's unfavorable reaction when the Bulls renegotiate Toni Kukoc's salary.

Krause said Pippen and Kukoc can co-exist and that he still fits in their plans despite several negative incidents this past season.

"We feel Scottie Pippen is a great player," said Krause, who also called him a "class act."

"We want him in Chicago. . . . Scottie Pippen is a Bull and we're happy with that."

Krause also denied taking a power forward when the team has obvious needs at shooting guard showed they don't think they can sign Grant.

"What that indicates is we believe he's the best player on the board and we didn't like any of the shooting guards on the board," Krause said.

Adande worked for the Sun Times for two years covering the Bulls and Illinois football

 

[Kush77]

I never remember Adande covering the Bulls then. The only guys I remember were Jackson and Banks. Then the occasional article from Mariotti. You learn something new everyday.

 

[TheStig]

Seriously Pip would have only been finely good without MJ? BS Pippen would have been around where Grant Hill was as a player prior to injury. A perineal allstar and top 15 player. He wouldn't have been on a losing team, he could lead a team to the playoffs.

Furthermore Mark, I don't think I have heard someone flip flop their opinion nearly as much.

 

[houheffna]

Pippen had to be "molded" into the player he became...

Phil Jackson stated that Michael pretty much tutored Pippen early in his career and helped him to become the player that he was. If that is the case, I don't know if he would have been a perrenial allstar without him. But with the the help from Jordan, the greatest ever, Pippen became so good that it was said that Jordan once stated it was like playing with his twin, which is the highest compliment from the greatest player.

What is extraordinary is the love and respect Scottie's teammates have for him, would seperated him from someone like Manu is that he was totally capable of being "the man" athletically, he just didn't have the mental fortitude to handle that role. Though he showed tremendous skill in pre draft camps, he still had a hard time adjusting...assuming he would have been an allstar like Grant Hill who was a fantastic college player, without Jordan is a bit farfetched.

 

[reignman]

Diddy1122 wrote:

reignman wrote:

IMHO you underestimate how good a player Pippen was. He was one of the top tier players in the league for years, those with and without Jordan, surely higher rated than the borderline allstars you named in the podcast.

Pippen was a team player, sacrificing individual glory (stats) for team success. He never was a 30 PPG scorer, but never had (the chance) to develop his scoring abilities that far as the second option. He was a bulldog on D, being as clutch and committed as anybody. Sure, he almost never got to shoot that last shot, but that's because of his context (MJ's excellence), not a flaw of Pippen's.

I'm sure playing with Jordan influenced that development heavily, I'd even suspect that's the only way a superstar could stick on a team with MJ.

Nobody knows what Pip could have achieved without MJ, or vice versa. Or how MJ would have meshed with a premier low post scorer like Kemp. Throughout his career, Pippen was recognized and honored for his achievements, particularly on defense. There's no point in denying that.

People seem to have this idea that Pip would've been this amazing scorer without MJ. The fact is it's simply not true. Even at his best, 93-94 season without MJ, Pip was only a 22ppg scorer. Pip was an amazing all around player, best perimeter defender I've ever seen, & invented the point forward position. But he was not a real high volume scorer. That just wasn't his game & never really needed to be. There's no knocking Pip for all he's accomplished. I think everyone here considers him one of the all-time greats. However, playing since day 1 of your NBA career with the GOAT constantly pushing you & challenging you in pratice will get the best out of most players. I truly believe that if Pip was not around MJ from the beginning of his career, he would not have been as good as he was.

I also think that practicing with Jordan (not to forget others, like Harper as well) helped Pippen's development a lot. But, regarding the initial argument in the podcast, this should affect not Scottie's legacy at all. An average of 22 in a season isn't too shabby, that's usually good enough for the top 10. Few hall of famers averaged 30 in any sesason

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

What is extraordinary is the love and respect Scottie's teammates have for him

That's something that always gets overlooked about Pip because of the 1.8 seconds deal.

I interviewed Steve Kerr about 7 years ago when he was playing with S.A. and I asked him about Pip. I remember reading a quote from Steve Kerr, in one of those many books written about the Bulls, where he said Pippen was the best teammate he ever had. and I asked Kerr about it and if that was still true. He said 100% that Pippen was the best teammate he ever had. And Kerr was on the 94 team where the 1.8 seconds took place.

That was a stupid thing for Scottie to do, but despite it his teammates still loved him.

And what if Scottie didn't sit out? What if Pip went in as a decoy and threw the perfect inbounds pass to Kukoc instead of Pete Myers? Then people, like Fred, would bash him for shying away in crunch time. When in fact the reason he sat out was because he was pissed he wasn't getting the ball to try and win.

Not saying Pippen was justified. But he would get ripped in either situation by Pippen haters.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Pippen had to be "molded" into the player he became...

Phil Jackson stated that Michael pretty much tutored Pippen early in his career and helped him to become the player that he was. If that is the case, I don't know if he would have been a perrenial allstar without him. But with the the help from Jordan, the greatest ever, Pippen became so good that it was said that Jordan once stated it was like playing with his twin, which is the highest compliment from the greatest player.

What is extraordinary is the love and respect Scottie's teammates have for him, would seperated him from someone like Manu is that he was totally capable of being "the man" athletically, he just didn't have the mental fortitude to handle that role. Though he showed tremendous skill in pre draft camps, he still had a hard time adjusting...assuming he would have been an allstar like Grant Hill who was a fantastic college player, without Jordan is a bit farfetched.

Jordan certainly helped Pip out but I don't see any other member of that team regarded as a top 50 player. You make it seem like Pippen would be riding the bus if MJ hadn't come along. He was still a top 5 pick, he clearly had a lot of potential and skill. Making Pip into a borderline allstar like Mark said is a bit much.

 

[Fred]

Kush77 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

What is extraordinary is the love and respect Scottie's teammates have for him

That's something that always gets overlooked about Pip because of the 1.8 seconds deal.

I interviewed Steve Kerr about 7 years ago when he was playing with S.A. and I asked him about Pip. I remember reading a quote from Steve Kerr, in one of those many books written about the Bulls, where he said Pippen was the best teammate he ever had. and I asked Kerr about it and if that was still true. He said 100% that Pippen was the best teammate he ever had. And Kerr was on the 94 team where the 1.8 seconds took place.

That was a stupid thing for Scottie to do, but despite it his teammates still loved him.

And what if Scottie didn't sit out? What if Pip went in as a decoy and threw the perfect inbounds pass to Kukoc instead of Pete Myers? Then people, like Fred, would bash him for shying away in crunch time. When in fact the reason he sat out was because he was pissed he wasn't getting the ball to try and win.

Not saying Pippen was justified. But he would get ripped in either situation by Pippen haters.

This is absolutely not true. Kukoc hit several big shots during that regular season, and Pippen passed it to him several times. I always complimented Scottie on his nice passes to other players who could hit clutch shots...he recognized his limitations in the clutch, and he always did a great job giving up the ball. Phil understood this too, and that's why he asked Toni to take the last shot against the Knicks. Unfortunately for Pip, he disagreed with Phil's call and sat out the final seconds of a playoff game like a petulant 3 year old. Toni saved his career in Chicago, Jordan came back to give us 3 more titles, Pippen continued to complain about the contract he signed for another 4 full seasons, and the rest is history.

 

[Fred]

Fred wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

What is extraordinary is the love and respect Scottie's teammates have for him

That's something that always gets overlooked about Pip because of the 1.8 seconds deal.

I interviewed Steve Kerr about 7 years ago when he was playing with S.A. and I asked him about Pip. I remember reading a quote from Steve Kerr, in one of those many books written about the Bulls, where he said Pippen was the best teammate he ever had. and I asked Kerr about it and if that was still true. He said 100% that Pippen was the best teammate he ever had. And Kerr was on the 94 team where the 1.8 seconds took place.

That was a stupid thing for Scottie to do, but despite it his teammates still loved him.

And what if Scottie didn't sit out? What if Pip went in as a decoy and threw the perfect inbounds pass to Kukoc instead of Pete Myers? Then people, like Fred, would bash him for shying away in crunch time. When in fact the reason he sat out was because he was pissed he wasn't getting the ball to try and win.

Not saying Pippen was justified. But he would get ripped in either situation by Pippen haters.

This is absolutely not true. Kukoc hit several big shots during that regular season, and Pippen passed it to him several times. I always complimented Scottie on his nice passes to other players who could hit clutch shots...he recognized his limitations in the clutch, and he always did a great job giving up the ball. Phil understood this too, and that's why he asked Toni to take the last shot. Unfortunately for Pip, he disagreed with Phil's call and sat out the final seconds of a playoff game like a petulant 3 year old. Toni saved his career in Chicago, Jordan came back to give us 3 more titles, Pippen continued to complain about the contract he signed for another 4 full seasons, and the rest is history.

Here's one fantastic example of what I'm talking about from the 93-94 regular season in terms of Toni's clutchness in terms of last second shots. Check this beauty out...the infamous Reggie Miller bowing game. What this video doesn't show is Pippen bowing after Toni hits the shot. Great, great game. Laughed and loved every minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2-3WLtcI6s

 

[clonetrooper264]

Kukoc was a fantastic player, Pippen was a fantastic player. Both did their thing in different ways. Can't we leave it at that and appreciate what both guys have done for Chicago?

 

[Fred]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kukoc was a fantastic player, Pippen was a fantastic player. Both did their thing in different ways. Can't we leave it at that and appreciate what both guys have done for Chicago?

Absolutely. As long as we can throw Craig Hodges in there too.

 

[Dpauley23]

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kukoc was a fantastic player, Pippen was a fantastic player. Both did their thing in different ways. Can't we leave it at that and appreciate what both guys have done for Chicago?

Absolutely. As long as we can throw Craig Hodges in there too.

Why? He did nothing to help us win a title. For all his clutchness if he could of hit shots in the 90 playoffs we would of beaten Detriot

 

[Kush77]

Fred wrote:

This is absolutely not true. Kukoc hit several big shots during that regular season, and Pippen passed it to him several times. I always complimented Scottie on his nice passes to other players who could hit clutch shots...he recognized his limitations in the clutch, and he always did a great job giving up the ball. Phil understood this too, and that's why he asked Toni to take the last shot against the Knicks. Unfortunately for Pip, he disagreed with Phil's call and sat out the final seconds of a playoff game like a petulant 3 year old. Toni saved his career in Chicago, Jordan came back to give us 3 more titles, Pippen continued to complain about the contract he signed for another 4 full seasons, and the rest is history.

Pippen did pass it to him in that Youtube clip of the Indiana game. But no one gave him credit for the inbounds. that wasn't the headline the next day (not that it should have been) but no one was saying "oh Pip with the perfect inbounds." Maybe you were.

As for the Pippen bow, it wasn't in that game after Kukoc hit the game winner. Pippen bowed the next night after the Bulls won the 2nd of a home & home with the Pacers. So the Pippen bow, that was mocking Miller, was at Market Square Arena.

Kukoc hit 4 game winning shots that year.

The first was about a 30-foot 3 pointer at Milwaukee early in the season. Maybe the 10th game or so. The second was on Christmas vs Orlando. It wasn't a buzzer beater but there was about 3 seconds left on the clock for the Magic. Then there was the Indiana shot which was amazing, especially because it left Reggie Miller felling like a ******. And then there was the game-winner in the playoffs vs. New York.

As for Scottie complaining about his contract, I don't recall him doing any contract complaining during the 72-10 season. And people always rip him for that. Well, he had a case. But Bulls management like to be the strict business men so they decide to let a relationship with the second best player in franchise history deteriorate over money. that was Reinsdorf's choice, the Bulls still won and Pippen still played and delivered on the court. So why do people complaining about Scottie's complaining.

There have been FAR worse players who have accomplished FAR less and have complained about their contracts. Not sure why Pippen, who helped a team win 6 titles, gets crucified for it.

I remember a player - who has never won a title - complaining about his 12 million dollar contract because he had children to feed.

 

[houheffna]

Jordan certainly helped Pip out but I don't see any other member of that team regarded as a top 50 player. You make it seem like Pippen would be riding the bus if MJ hadn't come along. He was still a top 5 pick, he clearly had a lot of potential and skill. Making Pip into a borderline allstar like Mark said is a bit much.

To think that Scottie would have been as good without Jordan is far fetched, comparing him to Grant Hill is over the top also...I'm sorry, did Scottie make the allstar game his rookie year? Scottie was not the prospect Grant Hill was, Scottie developed his game, with some help. If Scottie wasn't with Jordan, he wouldn't have been as good a wing defender as he was, and he wouldn't have been on the dream team. Just sayin...

 

[Diddy1122]

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kukoc was a fantastic player, Pippen was a fantastic player. Both did their thing in different ways. Can't we leave it at that and appreciate what both guys have done for Chicago?

Absolutely. As long as we can throw Craig Hodges in there too.

I love Hodges too but I could not help but laugh when I heard you say he's higher than Pip in your all-time top 5 Bulls list. I love Ed Nealy, Cliff Levingston, & Bill Wenington too but none of them would be in my top 5, neither is Hodges.

I appreaciate the fact that Hodges was an amazing 3pt shooter, but just like Kush, I can't recall 1 instance in my 25 years of watching this team of him hitting an amazing clutch shot. However I do recall my boy Levingston assisting MJ on the "mid-air switch" layup during the '91 Finals. Where was Hodges on that play? :silly:

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Jordan certainly helped Pip out but I don't see any other member of that team regarded as a top 50 player. You make it seem like Pippen would be riding the bus if MJ hadn't come along. He was still a top 5 pick, he clearly had a lot of potential and skill. Making Pip into a borderline allstar like Mark said is a bit much.

To think that Scottie would have been as good without Jordan is far fetched, comparing him to Grant Hill is over the top also...I'm sorry, did Scottie make the allstar game his rookie year? Scottie was not the prospect Grant Hill was, Scottie developed his game, with some help. If Scottie wasn't with Jordan, he wouldn't have been as good a wing defender as he was, and he wouldn't have been on the dream team. Just sayin...

I'm a bit torn on this one. How good would Pip have been without MJ there?

It's hard to say. I know that he wouldn't of had the career he had if he had not went to Chicago and played with MJ and eventually have a great coach like Phil. Scottie was a type 5 pick but would be considered a project since he came from a NAIA school.

Lets say he gets drafted by the Clippers, or even stayed in Seattle, it's possible his career doesn't get off the ground.

 

[Shakes]

I think Fred said they were his favourite 5 Bulls, not the best 5.

 

[Fred]

Diddy1122 wrote:

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kukoc was a fantastic player, Pippen was a fantastic player. Both did their thing in different ways. Can't we leave it at that and appreciate what both guys have done for Chicago?

Absolutely. As long as we can throw Craig Hodges in there too.

I love Hodges too but I could not help but laugh when I heard you say he's higher than Pip in your all-time top 5 Bulls list. I love Ed Nealy, Cliff Levingston, & Bill Wenington too but none of them would be in my top 5, neither is Hodges.

I appreaciate the fact that Hodges was an amazing 3pt shooter, but just like Kush, I can't recall 1 instance in my 25 years of watching this team of him hitting an amazing clutch shot. However I do recall my boy Levingston assisting MJ on the "mid-air switch" layup during the '91 Finals. Where was Hodges on that play? :silly:

Of course I don't think that Hodges was better than Pippen. Mark asked me my personal favorite Bulls, and I'd put Scottie in the top 5, but I liked other players more, just because of the Pippen antics I've outlined. If I had to judge on performance, Scottie would be #2 behind Michael, although I think Rose will surpass him in the next few years. I have Hinrich #184, right behind Gene Banks.

 

[Shakes]

Fred wrote:

I have Hinrich #184, right behind Gene Banks.

Given that there have been 299 players to play for the Bulls, by your standards that's quite the Kirk love you're showing there. :laugh: