CBE 95: Crunch Time

Shakes

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To pick on another guy in the 50 greatest ... John Stockton's rookie year stats: 5.6 PPG, 5.1 assists, 18% from three. Starting out slow doesn't mean you need MJ to become a great player.
 

Kush77

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Shakes wrote:
To pick on another guy in the 50 greatest ... John Stockton's rookie year stats: 5.6 PPG, 5.1 assists, 18% from three. Starting out slow doesn't mean you need MJ to become a great player.

John Stockton wasn't a lottery pick, he was 16th, but I know what you mean. You could of considered Stockton a project too coming from Gonzaga. Gonzaga wasn't as well know in 1984 as it is now.
 

Kush77

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Bulls think they have a pippin of a pick in Pippen
Chicago Sun-Times - Tuesday, June 23, 1987
Author: Ray Sons


Jerry Krause's eyes opened wide and he gushed as a big-game hunter who had discovered "Big Foot" or the "Abominable Snowman," one of those critters glimpsed at a distance or known only by awesome footprints in Tibet, Nepal or Inner Mongolia, places you can't reach without riding a yak.

" Scottie Pippen is 6-7 1/2, 212 pounds, a 74-inch wingspan - which is unreal. We think he'll get bigger and stronger. He has grown eight inches in the last four years. For those who follow genetics, Scottie 's mother is 6 feet and weighs nearly 200 pounds."

To hear Krause talk, you'd think the Bulls had just trapped a pterodactyl, one of those angular winged reptiles that flew over the earth in the Jurassic Period, just before Wilt Chamberlain was found in the wilds of Philadelphia.

"He's got the long arms and the big hands and the big feet," Jerry enthused. "He's just starting to find out how good he can be. He's never seen an NBA game. He's from a town of 200 people."

If Krause weren't vice president/basketball operations for the Bulls, he'd likely be one of those scientists who know the best tar pit to find a jawbone of a Piltdown man with a 44-inch vertical leap. Maybe that's because Krause himself is built so low to the ground he can track a varmint without bending over.

When Krause first mentioned to his coach, Doug Collins, he was thinking of this Pippen of Central Arkansas as a possible No. 1 draft choice, Collins reacted with pardonable skepticism. Jerry "likes obscure people," Doug realized. But he reminded Jerry: "Remember, I gotta win."

Collins knew this was the same Krause who had dug up a Charles Oakley at Virginia Union, a Mike Brown at George Washington and a Mike Smrek at Canisius. That's real nice. But wouldn't it be safer to draft a guy Billy Packer has heard of?

It turns out Krause sent his assistant, Billy McKinney, to Conway, Ark., last January, where McKinney actually saw this Pippen playing in the Arkansas Intercollegiate Conference. McKinney marvelled at this specimen and his report fed Krause's imagination, which is always receptive to the exotic.

Pippen 's obscurity was well founded in both geography and physiology. He was the youngest of 12 children of Preston and Ethel Pippen of Hamburg, which actually has more than 3,000 inhabitants and is located in the southeastern corner of Arkansas. He was a 6-1, 135-pound point guard at Hamburg High School and no college recruited him. His high school coach talked Don Dyer, coach at Central Arkansas, into taking him as a student manager, since Dyer didn't have a scholarship to offer, and probably wouldn't have spent one on a kid so puny.

By the time Scottie showed up in Conway, he had grown to 6-3. A recruit from Louisiana dropped out of school, and Scottie got his scholarship and got to play. "By the end of his freshman year, he might have been the best player we had," says Arch Jones, Dyer's assistant. As a sophomore, this runt had grown to 6-5 and 160. He was 6-6 and 175 as a junior and led the league in scoring. He was 205 and 6-7 as a senior and all-America for the second time among the small schools in the NAIA.

"It's unbelievable," says Jones. "He's a complete player. He's kept his point-guard skills while growing like he has. In my opinion, he's not even close to reaching his potential."

I phoned his mom, Ethel, in Hamburg and verified she was 6 feet, as Krause had testified. Her husband, Preston, was 6-1 and all their kids were tall, Scottie the tallest. What about Scottie 's feet? Size 14, his mom said, supporting Krause's belief he could be a superstar if the rest of him grew to conform to his shoe size.

Preston Pippen worked in a paper mill until a stroke paralyzed his right side several years ago. Now he can't walk and his speech is affected. He and his wife couldn't afford to send the other kids to college. The fortune Scottie figures to make as a Bull will be a blessing.

Aside from Pippen 's physical dimensions, the best news is that he seems to fit the image Krause and Collins have sought for the Bulls. He has sterling character and work habits.

"Real personable and dependable," says Rex Lovell, athletic director at Central Arkansas. "He's quiet and well-mannered," says coach Jones, "a `yes sir, no sir' type. Very humble." His mom says he's always been a good boy, though she's had to spank him for sins so insignificant she can't remember them. Presumably, she spanked him before he got his full growth. "A fine young man," says his agent, Don Kessinger.

Yes, the agent is the same fellow who used to play shortstop for the Cubs and briefly managed the White Sox. Kessinger, who also played quite some basketball for the University of Mississippi, judges Pippen 's skills this way: "I think he is one of those rare guys, a 6-8 guard or small forward who has all the moves inside, and yet can go outside and shoot well. Those guys are hard to find."

Collins will use him at small forward. Krause sees him as competition for last year's No. 1 draftee, Brad Sellers, and Gene Banks.

Close on the heels of this discovery, Krause announced the reaquisition of Artis Gilmore, 7-2 and 255, from San Antonio. Gilmore will be 38 years old before the next season begins. Some of us suspected Gilmore was washed up when he left the Bulls five season ago, because you could time his progress down the floor with an hourglass. Of all things, Collins thinks Gilmore will help the Bulls convert to an up-tempo, running style. Maybe. But the other guys will have to do the running.

Some disinterested observers say the Bulls may have had the best draft in the league this time. "We did a helluva piece of work," said Krause.

Until we see the Bulls in training camp next fall, most of us have to take the new talent on faith. The only real authorities who can size up Krause's efforts on draft day are the few shoe salesmen who know the biggest feet in the smallest places.
 

houheffna

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Krause loves talking about players mothers, he loves big women!

Remember what he said about Elton Brand's mother...
 

houheffna

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To pick on another guy in the 50 greatest ... John Stockton's rookie year stats: 5.6 PPG, 5.1 assists, 18% from three. Starting out slow doesn't mean you need MJ to become a great player.

All players need tutelage at one point or another to become great. Pippen had Jordan, Pippen played similar to Jordan, it would only be right to assume that Jordan helped develop Pippen's game. Do you really think Pippen would be mentioned nearly as much as he is if he played with Shawn Kemp? I doubt it seriously. Someone would have taught Scottie the ropes in the NBA, however, I am not quite sure if they would have taught him what Jordan taught him, or would have had the credibility with Pip Jordan had, who at that point was arguably the best in the game. Plus Scottie sought out Jordan, not vice versa.
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:
I know AI got in through fan voting, but when Hill made the All-star team a few years back, he actually was having a good year.

I guess I can point to Scottie's rookie year stats. 7.9 ppg 46% FR 3.8 rebs 2 assists.

You'd typically expect more from a #5 pick, but Scottie was a project. A great athlete, but a project.

He continued to get better every year. Does that same progression happen without playing on a good team with the league's best player and a great coach in Jackson? I don't know if it does. I'm not saying I'm right, I just have doubt.
Hill had a good year the last year he made the allstar team but his stats were significantly down and a guy who just had those stats wouldn't make it for one year. His points were over 20 but his assists and rebounds were down. They are PP's numbers minus being on a competitor with two future hofs. I'd call them borderline all star numbers at best. Its a shame what happened to him, he could have went down as one of the top 50 and a bron lite.

Pippen was raw when he came out. I guess thats where the debate comes in of how much it helped being here. I certainly agree it did, MJ and the 6 titles built his legacy but I still think someone willing to put in the work necessary to get there (MJ didn't just mind melt him into what he is) would have been a perineal all star.
 

houheffna

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We are going from "great", to "perennial all star" to "very good" to "very solid"....
 

Shakes

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I'm not saying Jordan didn't help Pippen out, I'm just saying there's no way of knowing what Pippen would have become without Jordan, all we can do is judge Pippen on what he was.

Besides it seems a bit unfair to give MJ credit for guys that turned out well, unless he's going to also take the blame for the others. Stacey King was the 6th pick in the draft, is it on MJ for not being able to teach him to become an all-star?
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
We are going from "great", to "perennial all star" to "very good" to "very solid"....

Sorry, mental lapse, I changed it back to pernnial all star.
 

houheffna

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I'm not saying Jordan didn't help Pippen out, I'm just saying there's no way of knowing what Pippen would have become without Jordan, all we can do is judge Pippen on what he was.

Besides it seems a bit unfair to give MJ credit for guys that turned out well, unless he's going to also take the blame for the others. Stacey King was the 6th pick in the draft, is it on MJ for not being able to teach him to become an all-star?


Teaching young players how to thrive in the NBA was not Jordan's job, plus last I looked Jordan didn't play power forward or center. That's a dumb metaphor, that is like Joakhim Noah calling up Isiah to work on Noah's game. What is the piIf you read the quote from the book I put in here, Pippen sought out Jordan. Jordan was an arrogant, antisocial asshole with most of his teammates. Look, Krause wouldn't even draft shooting guards because Jordan would demoralize them and render them useless. Stacey King? He damn near hated Stacey King! And Stacey felt the same about him. Nobody said that Pippen was talentless, we are working with 2 facts here...Pippen had talent, and Jordan worked with him extensively early in his career. The rest is a bunch of jibberish that don't matter.


Sorry, mental lapse, I changed it back to pernnial all star.

You were just starting to make sense...
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
I'm not saying Jordan didn't help Pippen out, I'm just saying there's no way of knowing what Pippen would have become without Jordan, all we can do is judge Pippen on what he was.

Besides it seems a bit unfair to give MJ credit for guys that turned out well, unless he's going to also take the blame for the others. Stacey King was the 6th pick in the draft, is it on MJ for not being able to teach him to become an all-star?


Teaching young players how to thrive in the NBA was not Jordan's job, plus last I looked Jordan didn't play power forward or center. That's a dumb metaphor, that is like Joakhim Noah calling up Isiah to work on Noah's game. What is the piIf you read the quote from the book I put in here, Pippen sought out Jordan. Jordan was an arrogant, antisocial asshole with most of his teammates. Look, Krause wouldn't even draft shooting guards because Jordan would demoralize them and render them useless. Stacey King? He damn near hated Stacey King! And Stacey felt the same about him. Nobody said that Pippen was talentless, we are working with 2 facts here...Pippen had talent, and Jordan worked with him extensively early in his career. The rest is a bunch of jibberish that don't matter.


Sorry, mental lapse, I changed it back to pernnial all star.

You were just starting to make sense...

That proves my point. Pip was willing to do what he had to get better. Thats what great players do. Thats the drive that would have made him great. Most of what he would have lost on another team would have been the legacy. Maybe he wouldn't have had some of the knowledge but he certainly could learn a lot of it watching MJ. It wasn't MJ that came up to him and said do this and that. It was Pip who asked how can I get better?
 

Bullsman24

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Shakes wrote:
To pick on another guy in the 50 greatest ... John Stockton's rookie year stats: 5.6 PPG, 5.1 assists, 18% from three. Starting out slow doesn't mean you need MJ to become a great player.

well put it into perspective. kenny "sky" walker, the 5th pick in the '86 draft, had 10.6 ppg and 5.0 rpg in his rookie year and didn't end up being anywhere near as good, even if it was cuz of injury. he went to the university of kentucky, i mean honestly, the REASON that players go to big name colleges is get ready for the NBA.

as well, pippen grew SEVEN INCHES over the course of his college career, and still growing. just in that, he didn't know his body as well as other people typically know theirs because his body was brand new to him.
 

houheffna

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That proves my point. Pip was willing to do what he had to get better. Thats what great players do. Thats the drive that would have made him great. Most of what he would have lost on another team would have been the legacy. Maybe he wouldn't have had some of the knowledge but he certainly could learn a lot of it watching MJ. It wasn't MJ that came up to him and said do this and that. It was Pip who asked how can I get better?


So Pippen was ambitious, tremendous, nobody said Jordan put a gun to Pippen's head. Pippen asked, Jordan taught. So Jordan deserves no credit for teaching him? The point you are trying to make is pointless...the point I am trying to make is that Jordan deserves a lot of credit for helping to make him a great player, or very good, or whatever other adjectives you want to use to describe him that's all over the map. Furthermore, a lot of the accolades Pippen get now are because he played with Michael Jordan and he was the one constant with Jordan and Phil Jackson through 2 sets of 3 championships. Plain and simple.
 

Hendu0520

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Hou, I think you are forgetting the size of wing players back then. He could play both guard positions and his small forward spot. There weren't a lot of 6'7 3's that could handle the ball like he could and had the foot work defensively. I know Jordan didn't teach him to dribble better. Now the game is flooded with 6'7 wing guys with handle and quick defensive feet, but none are as good as him defensively still.

Yes Jordan would have still dominated in games against Pippen, but he would easily be the best to go up against him right?

The SG's back then were all 6'4 and 6'5 and Pippen could stay with all of them, and he would lock down PG's so another team could have made him into a Magic type player. We will never know. What if he was on a fastbreak team out west? I like the argument even though it doesn't matter because he was with Jordan. I just can't understand why that combonation of skill, size and drive wouldn't have translated into a great player no matter what in your eyes?
 

Hendu0520

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As far as coming out of college, no Pippen didn't go to the holy grail of schools like Grant Hill but he dominated the NAIA and was good enough to be drafted 5th. He was supposed to be good and I think he would have been. Maybe a notch below what he was with Jordan or a notch above we will never know.
 

houheffna

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Hou, I think you are forgetting the size of wing players back then. He could play both guard positions and his small forward spot. There weren't a lot of 6'7 3's that could handle the ball like he could and had the foot work defensively. I know Jordan didn't teach him to dribble better. Now the game is flooded with 6'7 wing guys with handle and quick defensive feet, but none are as good as him defensively still.

Yes Jordan would have still dominated in games against Pippen, but he would easily be the best to go up against him right?

The SG's back then were all 6'4 and 6'5 and Pippen could stay with all of them, and he would lock down PG's so another team could have made him into a Magic type player. We will never know. What if he was on a fastbreak team out west? I like the argument even though it doesn't matter because he was with Jordan. I just can't understand why that combonation of skill, size and drive wouldn't have translated into a great player no matter what in your eyes?

Pippen was a better ballhandler than Jordan. I am not forgetting the size of small forwards back then, he wasn't any bigger than others at that position. Bird, Dominique, James Worthy were all as tall, bigger guys at the time. Derrick McKey was a SF and he was damn near 7 feet tall. Toni Kukoc showed up in 1993 and he was known as a guy with similar skills offensively to Pippen. Pippen was an athlete, but he didn't come into the league with an NBA-ready game, it had to be honed and Jordan helped him, he knew he didn't have an NBA game yet. The potential was there, but the league has a graveyard full of wasted potential.

What ifs don't matter....that is not the point, what if he was with a fastbreak team out west, what if he was with Golden State...what if he was with the Sacramento Kings or the Clippers? The fact is he sought out Jordan and Jordan helped him. Now if you want to say Jordan helped him and didn't teach him anything, fine, show some proof of that, Phil Jackson said that Jordan "took him under his wing"...Pippen's offensive game needed refinement, defensively he needed to improve. I don't think Jordan spent 8 hours a day with him in a gym, but I do believe he helped Pippen out and taught him a lot about the NBA game, things Pippen didnt previously know, and that was a part of Pippen's development.

I believe without those championships, Pippen is considered a very good but not great player. The rings add a lot to his reputation. The rings and of course playing with the greatest ever. I don't think its the same as Ruth/Gehrig, Kobe/Shaq or anything on that level, I think Jordan was clearly the man and Pippen played the sidekick...willingly. Jordan would not have won those rings without Pippen, and maybe Jordan knew early on that Pippen could be instrumental in him winning rings, all the more reason to help Pippen out...
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
That proves my point. Pip was willing to do what he had to get better. Thats what great players do. Thats the drive that would have made him great. Most of what he would have lost on another team would have been the legacy. Maybe he wouldn't have had some of the knowledge but he certainly could learn a lot of it watching MJ. It wasn't MJ that came up to him and said do this and that. It was Pip who asked how can I get better?


So Pippen was ambitious, tremendous, nobody said Jordan put a gun to Pippen's head. Pippen asked, Jordan taught. So Jordan deserves no credit for teaching him? The point you are trying to make is pointless...the point I am trying to make is that Jordan deserves a lot of credit for helping to make him a great player, or very good, or whatever other adjectives you want to use to describe him that's all over the map. Furthermore, a lot of the accolades Pippen get now are because he played with Michael Jordan and he was the one constant with Jordan and Phil Jackson through 2 sets of 3 championships. Plain and simple.
I didn't say he deserves no credit. He does, working out with and against the goat of all time in practice is very benefical. Being able to win 6 rings with the goat and being part of the best team all time also helps his legacy but you can't take the skill, talent, athleticism, size and drive away from a guy because he played with mj. There are still 48 of the top 50 that haven't played with MJ and managed to carve out their own legacy. He probably isn't top 50 or have the legacy but he still would be a perineal all star. Playing with a guy like MJ certainly decreased his individual stats. Look at how much higher his usage was in 94 and his stats benefited.
 

Hendu0520

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Heff, Bird, Dominique and Worthy could not handle the ball or play defense like Point Guards! That is my point, look at the other players back then, Pippen revolutionized a position and now you see a more versitile 3 position where as back in the '80's the SF's were just skinny power forwards.

Also, Jordan was not the only person that could have a good influence on people. There are plenty of good mentors out there that could have helped a young Pippen along. You could take every top 50 guy put them in different situations and they might or might not have had the same career. Some situations are better than others. Not everyone is Jordan. What if Magic had gone to the Clippers? Shaq stayed in Orlando? T-Mac and Vincanity stayed together? What if Drexler went to the Knicks instead of Houston, does Ewing get a Chip?

I believe that there would have been more situations that Pippen would have been just as good, maybe not as many Championships but maybe even a better individual career than teams that he would have flopped on.
 

Shakes

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I want a 7 page thread about how Kevin McHale doesn't deserve to be in the top 50 because he played with Larry Bird. While you're at it, one about Sam Jones playing with Bill Russell. Not to mention Worthy with Kareem & Magic.

Point is Pippen is hardly the only guy on the list to benefit from good team mates enhancing their reputation by putting them on winning teams.
 

houheffna

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I want a 7 page thread about how Kevin McHale doesn't deserve to be in the top 50 because he played with Larry Bird. While you're at it, one about Sam Jones playing with Bill Russell. Not to mention Worthy with Kareem & Magic.

Point is Pippen is hardly the only guy on the list to benefit from good team mates enhancing their reputation by putting them on winning teams.


The point is, you don't get the point...

Michael helped Pippen with his game...his game!!!! Offense, defense? Ever heard of it? Damn, what is so hard about that? If the best player in the game is able to teach and show a player how he plays the game and that player starts to emulate him, and attains a certain level of success, then credit should be given. Whatever suppositions and examples you want to make up, the Pippen that we all remember was heavily influenced by Jordan and that is the way Pippen seemed to have wanted it. These other scenarios never happened so please spare me the lame rebuttals to what is fact. Jordan taught him many of the little things necessary to succeed in the NBA. He didn't make him a better athlete or anything like that, he helped to make Pippen a better basketball player...what the heck is so damn hard to understand about that?
 

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