CBE 95: Crunch Time

[clonetrooper264]

Shakes wrote:

Fred wrote:

I have Hinrich #184, right behind Gene Banks.

Given that there have been 299 players to play for the Bulls, by your standards that's quite the Kirk love you're showing there. :laugh:

Wow that high? Who are the 115 players below him? Pargo? Fizer? E-Rob? Whoever they are, they must really suck...

 

[Fred]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Fred wrote:

I have Hinrich #184, right behind Gene Banks.

Given that there have been 299 players to play for the Bulls, by your standards that's quite the Kirk love you're showing there. :laugh:

Wow that high? Who are the 115 players below him? Pargo? Fizer? E-Rob? Whoever they are, they must really suck...

Oh, I forgot about Fizer. Kirk's #185 then.

 

[Diddy1122]

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Fred wrote:

I have Hinrich #184, right behind Gene Banks.

Given that there have been 299 players to play for the Bulls, by your standards that's quite the Kirk love you're showing there. :laugh:

Wow that high? Who are the 115 players below him? Pargo? Fizer? E-Rob? Whoever they are, they must really suck...

Oh, I forgot about Fizer. Kirk's #185 then.

What about Arlington Heights own Dave Corzine? Is Lumber ranked higher than Kirk?

 

[Fred]

Diddy1122 wrote:

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Fred wrote:

I have Hinrich #184, right behind Gene Banks.

Given that there have been 299 players to play for the Bulls, by your standards that's quite the Kirk love you're showing there. :laugh:

Wow that high? Who are the 115 players below him? Pargo? Fizer? E-Rob? Whoever they are, they must really suck...

Oh, I forgot about Fizer. Kirk's #185 then.

What about Arlington Heights own Dave Corzine? Is Lumber ranked higher than Kirk?

No way. Kirk had a solid 06-07 season. Dave Corzine was a complete disaster every time he walked out on the court. He's a giant wart on the reputation of DePaul basketball.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Jordan certainly helped Pip out but I don't see any other member of that team regarded as a top 50 player. You make it seem like Pippen would be riding the bus if MJ hadn't come along. He was still a top 5 pick, he clearly had a lot of potential and skill. Making Pip into a borderline allstar like Mark said is a bit much.

To think that Scottie would have been as good without Jordan is far fetched, comparing him to Grant Hill is over the top also...I'm sorry, did Scottie make the allstar game his rookie year? Scottie was not the prospect Grant Hill was, Scottie developed his game, with some help. If Scottie wasn't with Jordan, he wouldn't have been as good a wing defender as he was, and he wouldn't have been on the dream team. Just sayin...

There is just no way of knowing what he would have developed into. All we have is the year without MJ and he certainly had a top 5 year. Its a big stretch to say that one of the best defenders of an era wouldn't have been a good defender without MJ.

 

[houheffna]

There is just no way of knowing what he would have developed into. All we have is the year without MJ and he certainly had a top 5 year. Its a big stretch to say that one of the best defenders of an era wouldn't have been a good defender without MJ.

To use the 93-94 season as evidence is destroys your argument. By that time he had played 6 seasons and won 3 championships with Jordan. And why is it that a former Defensive Player of the Year and all league defender considered the greatest ever by many at his position couldn't teach Pippen how to defend on the wing? That is not plausible to you?

He might have been a good defender? That corrupts your argument, he could have been a good defender, and a good player, that doesn't make him a perennial all star or a all league defender annually as he was for a while. I believe playing with Michael Jordan, the greatest ever in most opinions, next to him made him great. I do not at all believe he would have been a great player on that level without Jordan.

 

[Shakes]

And maybe if Jordan was on some other team Scottie would have been driven to work even harder to try to beat him. Maybe it wasn't Jordan who helped Scottie become the player he was, maybe he held him back by not allowing him to become the top banana. We'll never know.

 

[houheffna]

And maybe if Jordan was on some other team Scottie would have been driven to work even harder to try to beat him. Maybe it wasn't Jordan who helped Scottie become the player he was, maybe he held him back by not allowing him to become the top banana. We'll never know.

YOU dont know, I know what I saw. For a season and a half Scottie was the man, and he lost his damn mind! Jordan made him the great player that he was. Your hypothesis is the first I have ever heard of that. This is not Shaq and Kobe, that is not the same situation. Scottie fit best at what he did. Scottie had opportunities to prove he could be successful on his own...it didn't work.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

Seriously to argue what would have happened is pretty stupid to me.

What happened happened and I´m happy about the way it happened.

Pippen is the second best Bull of all time and if the best one helped him to reach that level so what? I mean isn´t the best player of a team supposed to make his teammates better? They also had by far the best coach. An other big plus for both of them!

I really don´t understand how you can argue 4 pages long about things that never happened?

 

[Fred]

Dpauley23 wrote:

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kukoc was a fantastic player, Pippen was a fantastic player. Both did their thing in different ways. Can't we leave it at that and appreciate what both guys have done for Chicago?

Absolutely. As long as we can throw Craig Hodges in there too.

Why? He did nothing to help us win a title. For all his clutchness if he could of hit shots in the 90 playoffs we would of beaten Detriot

He absolutely helped us to win a title. Again, we underestimate the importance of spacing. Just his presence on the court gave Jordan more room to drive. I can't wait to see what Rose will be like when we get some shooters for him. It's going to be incredible.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

And maybe if Jordan was on some other team Scottie would have been driven to work even harder to try to beat him. Maybe it wasn't Jordan who helped Scottie become the player he was, maybe he held him back by not allowing him to become the top banana. We'll never know.

Exactly, we have no way of knowing. Assuming he would be a bum isn't fair, he was a top 5 pick, clearly he had talent. All you can do is evaluate the product you have and that was a damn good player. Overexposing his clutch weakness and minimizing the fact that he was the most all around player in the league is just counterproductive.

 

[houheffna]

Exactly, we have no way of knowing. Assuming he would be a bum isn't fair, he was a top 5 pick, clearly he had talent. All you can do is evaluate the product you have and that was a damn good player. Overexposing his clutch weakness and minimizing the fact that he was the most all around player in the league is just counterproductive.

What Shakes said was exactly wrong, according to EVERYBODY who was there at the time.

Yeah, he was damn good, not great. That is the point, he became great because of Jordan. And who said he would have been a bum without Jordan? Without Jordan and those rings, nobody is talking about Pippen right now, point blank. The suggestion that Jordan held Pippen or anyone else back from being the best they could be is ludicrous. Its Jordan's fault that Pippen couldn't consistently shoot 70% from the free throw line? You gotta be kidding me...

To those who believe that Jordan held Pippen back, show me an example. What other players were hindered and flourished after leaving the Bulls with Jordan? Who are they?

 

[Hendu0520]

Wow some of this Pippen stuff is way off base. Pippen would have been awesome on another team, and my dream of seeing the best player ever suited to guard Jordan would have come true. That was the era of the Center, there were not a lot of great wing guys at the time anyway, so who would've been better? You think Mutumbo and Rodman aren't considered great? Even if Pippen couldn't score a point offensively he would have been an all star, and by the way he would have been a 20ppg guy.

To say Jordan made him is CRAZY! This What If arguement is hard enough without people saying they were there and Jordan definately made Pippen. That is a joke, why didn't he make all of the rest of the guys just as good as Pippen then?

1 year without Jordan, I think Pippen should have gotten MVP, he did get the all star MVP and if it weren't for Hue Hollins with the worst call in the History of the League, Pippen would have won a Chip without Jordan.

Pippen was and would have been way better than Grant Hill (career injuries), just because Hill was drafted high and made the all star team his rookie year doesn't mean anything. Pippen had a much longer and better career.

Oh and he would have been on a good Seattle team with Gary Payton, so maybe his defense would have been even better and the Sonics battle the Bulls 3 years straight in the NBA Finals.

Pippen would have been great no matter what, lol.

 

[houheffna]

Grant Hill's first 5 or 6 years were better than Pippen's first 5 years. Grant Hill came in as the franchise player, and played like it. No one said Jordan made Pippen, Pippen would have been good most likely. Jordan made Pippen great. Pippen used to get dunked on by Dominique Wilkins routinely in his early days, to assume he would have been as great defensively without Jordan's tutelage is over the top.

If you don't believe me, Phil Jackson stated the same thing, I have no reason to make that up. Without championship rings, without Jordan, Pippen is another very good player amongst many in NBA history. Playing with Jordan as his sidekick and winning with Jordan made him great. Pippen had an MVP season, Olajuwon did also, who was a better player and had a better year. To assume that Pippen would have beaten the Rockets is crazy. Did you see the first two games of that Knicks series they lost? Bulls were up double digits in both games if I am not mistaken, in New York! The Knicks came back both times. The Bulls lost because they didn't have a clutch player to win those games for them and they didn't have a shooting guard. Matter of fact, BJ was the one who hit the clutch shot in game 5 to give them the lead. To blame it on one foul call is asinine.

Pippen's game was refined by the time the trade with Seattle came around. You think Pippen would have been an allstar wing player with no offensive skill....you are kidding right? Pippen became a great defender because it was required of him. But Jordan had a lot to do with Pippen's development on both sides of the floor...I don't have to make that up, that is a fact. And it only makes sense.

 

[Hendu0520]

Pippen's draft rights were traded from Seattle, and I am pretty sure they had already selected him, but we got his pick from Seattle so the only assumption we can make is that he would have been a Sonic.

Oh so I am supposed to believe the King of Outrageous comments in Phil Jackson? Yah just like he said he hated Kobay and would never coach him again? Great Point he always tells the media the truth and never said things to get a rise out of people. Pippen would have been there with Robinson, Barkley, Dominique. He does get overhyped for being a champion but he was the greatest wing defender of all time, bar none! I don't know what you mean by just another good player? Does that mean Hall of Famer cause he would have been no matter what.

Also please tell me what would have happened if Hue Hollins doesn't make the phantom call? Bulls win one in New York which was where the Knicks made their comebacks because they had Home Court! not because the Bulls couldn't close. They didn't give up any leads at home. Then the Bulls would have held home court because the Knicks never had a chance of beating the Bulls at home. Only one game was close in Chicago, the other 2 were blowouts. If Hollins doesn't make that call, there was no game 7, and you know that. Just like when someone misses a FT down the stretch everyone tries to make him feel better by saying that there were so many other things that went wrong. Yah but if Hubert Davis doesn't get to shoot those FT's the Bulls win.

And why couldn't the Bulls beat the Rockets? They should have beat the Knicks who should have beat the Rockets and did take them to 7 games. So it isn't CRAZY to think they would have beaten the Rockets.

Remember they hype Gerald Wilkins got when he played against MJ? Imagine that same hype times 10 if Pippen were on another team, it would be the ultimate showdown that everyone would have watched. Pippen vs Jordan would have been great and he might have been more hyped if we would have had those battles.

 

[Hendu0520]

Just a year earlier Charles Smith couldn't make a layup that would have won the Knicks game 5 and probably the series. All of the old Knicks vs Bulls battles were about home court advantage. That year the Knicks had the home court and Smith got blocked 4 times to lose the home court advantage. Bulls fans know that won us the series and Knicks fans still blame Smith to this day.

 

[Bullsman24]

You know, that would be interesting, pippen and Shawn kemp...think that coulda won a championship?

 

[Hendu0520]

I don't know about a championship because of His Airness, but they would have been Jordan's biggest rivals and lose to him every year.

If they have Kemp and Pippen the Sonics might not have gotten to draft Payton. But Kemp and Pippen started off modestly their first couple of years so they might have still gotten him. With that 3 they would have made it tough on Jordan and Olden Polynice (the guy traded to the Sonics for Pippen, Seattle did pick Pippen and the Bulls picke Olden, lol)

 

[Diddy1122]

Fred wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kukoc was a fantastic player, Pippen was a fantastic player. Both did their thing in different ways. Can't we leave it at that and appreciate what both guys have done for Chicago?

Absolutely. As long as we can throw Craig Hodges in there too.

Why? He did nothing to help us win a title. For all his clutchness if he could of hit shots in the 90 playoffs we would of beaten Detriot

He absolutely helped us to win a title. Again, we underestimate the importance of spacing. Just his presence on the court gave Jordan more room to drive. I can't wait to see what Rose will be like when we get some shooters for him. It's going to be incredible.

I'm sorry Fred but you're just nuts here. I think you really over-estimate Hodges. I'll admit he was solid off the bench during the first title & was our best 3-pt shooter. But that title was all about MJ & Pip. They won us that title. Was Hodges 5ppg really that big of a difference? Not to mention they ran the triangle, which is all about spacing. Spacing was never an issue with the 90's Bulls because of this. That & the fact that MJ & Pip could break anyone down off the dribble. But if you're going to talk about spacing during the 1st 3-peat you should be talking about Pax & BJ, who actually played big minutes down the stretch & hit big shots during the playoffs.

Not trying to bash Hodges but I think you're making him out to be way more important to the titles than he really was.

 

[houheffna]

Just a year earlier Charles Smith couldn't make a layup that would have won the Knicks game 5 and probably the series. All of the old Knicks vs Bulls battles were about home court advantage. That year the Knicks had the home court and Smith got blocked 4 times to lose the home court advantage. Bulls fans know that won us the series and Knicks fans still blame Smith to this day.

Spoken like a true homer. You remember Pippen getting shafted, but you don't remember Charles Smith getting karate chopped? Knicks fans remember, I don't think they whine about it but they remember...and the Bulls did give up a lead at home...in game 3, when Kukoc saved Pippen's ass.

The Knicks were a better team that year, the Bulls had obvious holes in their lineup. So to assume the Bulls would have beaten the Rockets in a 7 game series is overboard.

This Pippen and Kemp stuff, is assuming that Pippen would have been as great away from the Bulls, you guys see it, I just don't see it.

Everytime Phil Jackson makes a quotable that craps on some of your theories, you attack Phil, he is arrogant, but why would he make this stuff up? Why? What sense does it make to just make up "Michael took Scottie under his wing"? Come'on Man! Y'all need to do better than that. Phil was there. I would rather believe his reality over other people's fantasies...