CBE 95: Crunch Time

houheffna

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Here is a quote from Michael Jordan: A Biography...

"By November 1987, Chicago began elevating to another level. Oakley blossomed as a power forward, Paxson emerged as a talented partner to Jordan, and Grant and Pippen gave the Bulls more depth. Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jumpshot, and defense and taught him mental toughness."


Hendu, Stig, others....your witness

I rest my case
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
Here is a quote from Michael Jordan: A Biography...

"By November 1987, Chicago began elevating to another level. Oakley blossomed as a power forward, Paxson emerged as a talented partner to Jordan, and Grant and Pippen gave the Bulls more depth. Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jumpshot, and defense and taught him mental toughness."


Hendu, Stig, others....your witness

I rest my case

That doesn't mean that other people couldn't have taught him anything. You make it seem like he'd be riding the bus if he hadn't met MJ. MJ works with guys on the bobcats in practice, none of them are anywhere near pip. Besides, no one doubted you that he worked with him, we doubt that he made pip into a top 50 player all time. You have to have skill and talent to get there, otherwise I would go work with MJ.
 

Shakes

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MJ certainly turned Kwame Brown into one hell of a player too. :laugh:

Personally I think the progress of the student says a lot more about the student than the teacher.
 

houheffna

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That doesn't mean that other people couldn't have taught him anything. You make it seem like he'd be riding the bus if he hadn't met MJ. MJ works with guys on the bobcats in practice, none of them are anywhere near pip. Besides, no one doubted you that he worked with him, we doubt that he made pip into a top 50 player all time. You have to have skill and talent to get there, otherwise I would go work with MJ.

You make it seem like Pippen was Lebron James....sorry....no. Pippen was not the chosen one.

if Pippen was on any other team, with any other player, and he had the same career...he would not be on the top 50 list. Pippen and Shawn Kemp? Pippen is not on the top 50. A lot of people already believe he is not a top 50 player. Dominique Wilkins was a glaring omission from that list. Its playing with Jordan and the 6 rings on a great team that stands out. If they were to redo the list, he might not make it. Scottie might not be top 5 at his position. I don't believe he is.

And this stuff about Pippen guarding Jordan....forget about it....Jordan would have done to Pippen what he did to everybody else...

MJ certainly turned Kwame Brown into one hell of a player too.

Personally I think the progress of the student says a lot more about the student than the teacher.

MJ doesn't like people! That is obvious...

As to your second statement about student/teacher...I guess that is why teachers are the most underappreciated people in the world...all the credit should go to the student...I totally disagree with that.
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:

You make it seem like Pippen was Lebron James....sorry....no. Pippen was not the chosen one.

if Pippen was on any other team, with any other player, and he had the same career...he would not be on the top 50 list. Pippen and Shawn Kemp? Pippen is not on the top 50. A lot of people already believe he is not a top 50 player. Dominique Wilkins was a glaring omission from that list. Its playing with Jordan and the 6 rings on a great team that stands out. If they were to redo the list, he might not make it. Scottie might not be top 5 at his position. I don't believe he is.

And this stuff about Pippen guarding Jordan....forget about it....Jordan would have done to Pippen what he did to everybody else...

Where did I ever compare him to Bron?

Please, where do you think Pippen would be without MJ? He may have gained knowledge but why wouldn't MJ use his secret Jedi mind powers to better his own basketball team? Clearly he should be able to duplicate the results in Charolette. Why isn't Gerald Henderson the next Pippen?
 

Kush77

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houheffna wrote:
Spoken like a true homer. You remember Pippen getting shafted, but you don't remember Charles Smith getting karate chopped? Knicks fans remember, I don't think they whine about it but they remember...and the Bulls did give up a lead at home...in game 3, when Kukoc saved Pippen's ass.

The Knicks were a better team that year, the Bulls had obvious holes in their lineup. So to assume the Bulls would have beaten the Rockets in a 7 game series is overboard.

I think the Charles Smith play was not a foul. there was not karate chop, the play was clean and Smith didn't get it done. The Hubert Davis play was questionable. The foul didn't affect the shot and it should have been a non call. And the NBA head of officials at the time, I think it was Darryl Garrison, came out after the playoffs and said that the call shouldn't have been made. I remember reading that in the Sun times. I'll try to look that up at work tomorrow.

And while I think the Bulls would have won Game 6 it wasn't a guarentee that they would have. We've seen so many teams win the Game 5 on the road only to lose Game 6 at home. Then lose Game 7. The Pacers, in the very next round, did that with the Knicks.

I do think the Bulls beat the Pacers in an ECF, but I've always said they would not have beaten the Rockets. The Bulls always had trouble with the Rockets in the regular season and I think they would have needed MJ to beat them in an NBA Finals.

And to me, I wouldn't have been mad. Getting to the NBA Finals without Jordan would have been an hell of an accomplishment. But Hue Hollins made his call.
 

Kush77

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I agree with Hou on the whole Pippen wouldn't have been as good without MJ issue.

I haven't read every post word for word but i've seen Grant Hill's name thrown out there.

Here is the difference between those two. Grant Hill was an all-american from a great college program that won titles. Hill was the main player on the Duke team that made it to the title game in 1994. Scottie Pippen was a guy from an NAIA school and probably was considered a project.

Grant Hill would have been a stud no matter what team he went to. I think Scottie, being a project, needed to go to the right place. And he did, thus maximizing his potential.

If he stayed with Seattle, or like I said before, drafted by a team like the Clippers, he could have easily been a bust. It's very possible.

But things turned out well.
 

houheffna

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Scottie got Smith one of those times from behind, looks to me, it might have been a non call but I don't think it was all that clean. Anyway, you sound like a straight homer when you analyzed what happened. Try to be objective preacher man...lol What was amazing was not the Bulls defense, its that Stacey King was actually on the floor at that time....lol

Where did I ever compare him to Bron?

Please, where do you think Pippen would be without MJ? He may have gained knowledge but why wouldn't MJ use his secret Jedi mind powers to better his own basketball team? Clearly he should be able to duplicate the results in Charolette. Why isn't Gerald Henderson the next Pippen?

Go back and read what I said, I said Pippen would have been a very good player, not great, even now there is actual debate as to whether he should be in the hall of fame. The greatness he possesses is from him playing alongside Michael Jordan and winning championships. That is what keeps his name out there, winning those rings, no one would talk about him otherwise. Pippen was a good student, Jordan was a good teacher.
Your other question is dumb, its like asking why didn't Mr. Miyagi open his own dojo after the Karate Kid's success...Jordan may not have the patience to teach anyone else. They may not have responded as well, who knows? It says in the book that other players stayed away from Jordan, Pippen sought him out...what is so hard to understand about that???
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
Scottie got Smith one of those times from behind, looks to me, it might have been a non call but I don't think it was all that clean. Anyway, you sound like a straight homer when you analyzed what happened. Try to be objective preacher man...lol What was amazing was not the Bulls defense, its that Stacey King was actually on the floor at that time....lol
Huh? What are you talking about?
Go back and read what I said, I said Pippen would have been a very good player, not great, even now there is actual debate as to whether he should be in the hall of fame. The greatness he possesses is from him playing alongside Michael Jordan and winning championships. That is what keeps his name out there, winning those rings, no one would talk about him otherwise. Pippen was a good student, Jordan was a good teacher.
Your other question is dumb, its like asking why didn't Mr. Miyagi open his own dojo after the Karate Kid's success...Jordan may not have the patience to teach anyone else. They may not have responded as well, who knows? It says in the book that other players stayed away from Jordan, Pippen sought him out...what is so hard to understand about that???
Lol there were multiple karate kid movies so Mr Miyagi did open up the dojo for more than one person and your comparing a guy who is in professional basketball for 25 years and a 90 min fictional story. And since when is training your employees the equivlent of opening up the public? IF Jordan doesn't have patience, then he clearly isn't a good teacher. I will agree that Pippen wouldn't have 6 titles and would loose some of the allure that is associated from the dynasty years. No one ever doubted that but he was still an all world defender and his natural abilities had more to do with that than MJ did. I just can't let you take one of the best all around players in the history in the league and take him out of an elite status because he played with someone else for most of his career. You are making sports into a nature vs nuture debate and lets face it, it take more than knowledge because neither of us are close to playing in the NBA.
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:
I agree with Hou on the whole Pippen wouldn't have been as good without MJ issue.

I haven't read every post word for word but i've seen Grant Hill's name thrown out there.

Here is the difference between those two. Grant Hill was an all-american from a great college program that won titles. Hill was the main player on the Duke team that made it to the title game in 1994. Scottie Pippen was a guy from an NAIA school and probably was considered a project.

Grant Hill would have been a stud no matter what team he went to. I think Scottie, being a project, needed to go to the right place. And he did, thus maximizing his potential.

If he stayed with Seattle, or like I said before, drafted by a team like the Clippers, he could have easily been a bust. It's very possible.

But things turned out well.

Yeah, JJ reddick and Adam Morrison are taking the league by storm. College doesn't always translate to the pros. Looking at Hills career, contracts, injuries and current impact, no one would take him top 3 anymore. That is the danger of the revisionist view you are taking. I agree Pip's legacy would have been hurt but the guy still had the talent, drive, effort and patience to do what was needed to be a star. Thats the difference between projects like Darius Miles and Pip. MJ couldn't make him work and couldn't get anyone else to work with him as hou's quote says. Saying he doesn't ahve the legacy or falls out of the top 50 is certainly possible but making him less than a perineal all star is inexusable and insulting to him.
 

houheffna

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Huh? What are you talking about?

I wasn't talking to you, did you have a flashback from jail or something? I kid, I kid...

Lol there were multiple karate kid movies so Mr Miyagi did open up the dojo for more than one person and your comparing a guy who is in professional basketball for 25 years and a 90 min fictional story. And since when is training your employees the equivlent of opening up the public? IF Jordan doesn't have patience, then he clearly isn't a good teacher. I will agree that Pippen wouldn't have 6 titles and would loose some of the allure that is associated from the dynasty years. No one ever doubted that but he was still an all world defender and his natural abilities had more to do with that than MJ did. I just can't let you take one of the best all around players in the history in the league and take him out of an elite status because he played with someone else for most of his career. You are making sports into a nature vs nuture debate and lets face it, it take more than knowledge because neither of us are close to playing in the NBA.

Who told you Jordan "trains" his employees? I don't know if you know this, but he is barely there! He is notorious for not being present most of the time...to act like he runs practices or something is way over the top and very presumptious on your part. His first 5 years were better than Pippen's. So lets not act like drafting Hill was a big mistake, he was a much better player drafted at 3 than both players we drafted at 3 over the last couple of times combined when he was healthy.

No Jordan is not a good teacher, however, he taught Pippen. That is one of many. Jordan taught Pippen how to be an all world defender. Maybe you are a young buck, but Jordan was an all world defender. You might not remember in the late 80's and early 90's but that was the case. Pippen didn't come into the league that way. I watched him. A lot of players have the ability, but don't know how, Pippen was raw, just as Phil showed Jordan how he can be a better team player, Jordan showed Pippen how to be great.

Some players watched Jordan and did what he did. Kobe is an example of that (my fault, you think prime Scottie was as good as prime Kobe....oooooooookkkkkkkkkk!!!). You yourself said Pippen would have been very good without Jordan. Okay fine, he wouldn't have been great. That is the point. I reiterate, without the rings, and playing with Jordan, there is no conversation here, Pippen wouldn't be considered great and he wouldn't be top 50. He is one of the best all around players, he is not Larry Bird, Lebron, Dr. J or even Rick Barry, superior players at the same position. His greatness is undoubtable, but to think that he would have been a perennial all star on his own is over the top. Matter of fact, he was a 7 time all star. He was not a franchise player and he couldn't lead a team to a championship on his own. The only reason he is in good standing is because Kukoc and Jordan saved his ass at different times. Otherwise, he would have been hated in Chicago.


The fact that you compare JJ Redick and Morrison to Grant Hill, lets me know that there is also a good chance that not only didn't you see Jordan early in his career play defense, but you didn't see Grant Hill at Duke either. Hill was a can't miss, if he was to come out today, he would be a top pick in the draft all over again. The injuries were happenstance. From the time Hill stepped on the court he was an allstar. His first 5 years were better than Pippen's. So lets not act like drafting Hill was a big mistake, he was a much better player drafted at 3 than both players we drafted at 3 over the last couple of times combined when he was healthy. Though he had an injury plagued career, he was still a 7 time allstar, would have been 8 time if not for the strike shortened season.
 

Kush77

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TheStig wrote:
Yeah, JJ reddick and Adam Morrison are taking the league by storm. College doesn't always translate to the pros. Looking at Hills career, contracts, injuries and current impact, no one would take him top 3 anymore. That is the danger of the revisionist view you are taking. I agree Pip's legacy would have been hurt but the guy still had the talent, drive, effort and patience to do what was needed to be a star. Thats the difference between projects like Darius Miles and Pip. MJ couldn't make him work and couldn't get anyone else to work with him as hou's quote says. Saying he doesn't ahve the legacy or falls out of the top 50 is certainly possible but making him less than a perineal all star is inexusable and insulting to him.

You can't compare Grant Hill to JJ Redick. I'm personally shocked that Adam Morrison is as bad as he is. So I don't know what to say there.
College doesn't always translate to the pros, but Division 1 players from championship teams translate a hell of a lot more than players from NAIA schools. That's what I'm saying.

Sure no one would take Hill Top 3 knowing the injuries. But I'm not sure the what point you're trying to make with that comment? There's a lot of guys that wouldn't have been taken where they were.
 

Kush77

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houheffna wrote:
Scottie got Smith one of those times from behind, looks to me, it might have been a non call but I don't think it was all that clean. Anyway, you sound like a straight homer when you analyzed what happened. Try to be objective preacher man...lol What was amazing was not the Bulls defense, its that Stacey King was actually on the floor at that time....lol

Stacey King tried to draw the offensive foul on Ewing. lol. Good luck with that.

There was not enough contact for it to be a non-call, I think we agree on that. The Pippen on Davis call should have been a non call as well.

Not being a straight homer, just calling it as I see it. Pippen had 2 clean blocks. All ball.
 

Kush77

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Here you go Hou. I found some stuff about the head of refs at the time, Darell Garretson, saying that the Hollins call was a bad one. The actual story was in the Trib. I though I read it in the Sun-times, but it was 16 years ago, my memory is fading, I'm sorry.

But I found some old stuff in the Sun-Times talking about it with the quote. Here it is for your reading pleasure.

Chicago Sun-Times - Sunday, November 13, 1994
Author: John Jackson

FOUL MOOD: The Bulls haven't forgetten the foul call made by referee Hue Hollins in last season's Eastern Conference semifinals, and apparently neither has Hollins .

Before Saturday's game - the first Bulls game he has worked since the playoffs - Hollins had a security guard get Melissa Isaacson of the Chicago Tribune, who wrote a story with some critical comments of the call by Darell Garretson , the NBA director of officiating.

In case you forgot, Hollins made the foul call on Scottie Pippen with 2.1 seconds to go in Game 5 on a Hubert Davis jumper. Davis made both free throws, and the Bulls lost by a point.

After the game, Garretson defended the call, but was quoted in the Tribune story as saying: "All I could say, it was a terrible call. Any time an official does a game, he hopes he doesn't make any. . . . But those are the type we're paid not to miss. Those are an official's nightmare."

Apparently, Hollins still is haunted. He unleashed a brief, expletive-filled tirade against Isaacson before saying, "I don't have anything to say. . . . Get it right."

And less than two minutes into Saturday's game, Hollins called a techinical foul on Pippen for arguing a call.



Referees Don't Need Second-Guessers
Chicago Sun-Times - Sunday, December 4, 1994
Author: Lacy J. Banks


Until the NBA goes ultra-high-tech and comes up with an android that sees all, hears all, stores all and knows all, old-fashioned human referees will have to do.

And that's good. Like every wage-earner, I can feel a robot reporter on some engineer's drawing board looking over my paranoid shoulder. Too many laborers already have been phased out in favor of labor-saving machines.

Let's hope it doesn't happen to NBA referees. I admire these gypsy underdogs who never enjoy the luxury of a home game. As I went out into the cold night after a recent Orlando Magic-Milwaukee Bucks game, I passed referee Bennett Salvatore in the parking lot.

He just had endured another night of being victimized, criticized and brutalized. I felt sorry for him, but I'm sure he wasn't in the market for any pat on the back or word of support. So I silently passed.

Referees get used to abuse quickly and become immune to it. They toil for the pride and the money. Let's be honest: These guys are no gluttons for punishment, and there are many people who do far worse for much less.

This brings me around to referee Hue Hollins and his backstabbing boss, director of officials Darell Garretson . I know both men only professionally. We never have shared a soda or off-court small talk. We simply have seen each other at games.

On the whole, I'm always impressed by the jobs these men do under trying circumstances. Sure, they make mistakes. They are human. A sage Alexander Pope was right when he said, "To err is human, to forgive divine."

So referees will make mistakes, sometimes in crucial situations that will determine the outcome of a game. But

when we second-guessers check out videotaped replays, we often find they were right.

I was disappointed when Hollins called the controversial foul on Bulls star Scottie Pippen in last season's playoff series against the New York Knicks, a call that perhaps cost the Bulls another trip to the NBA Finals. Hubert Davis' last-second free throws rallied the Knicks to a victory in Game 5 and helped them capture the seven-game series 4-3.

But I was more disappointed months later when Garretson turned on Hollins in public by siding with critics of the call.

NBA rules limit what referees can say to the media in defense of themselves. They are forbidden from saying anything beyond explaining their judgment or the written rule. But I guess their bosses are free to hang them in verbal effigy.

What is professional refereeing coming to when officials can't defend and support each other? They already have more than enough enemies and critics. For them to start turning on each other makes the agony worse.

Garretson should have kept his mouth shut and left that issue alone. Would Garretson , a 27-year veteran who has made his share of mistakes, have done the same to his son, Ron, who is also an NBA referee?

I don't think so.

Here's hoping this never happens again.

Everybody is fallible. But nobody is falsely accused and abused more when he is right than the NBA referee.

Neither is anybody thanked less.

And less than two minutes into Saturday's game, Hollins called a techinical foul on Pippen for arguing a call.
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:

You can't compare Grant Hill to JJ Redick. I'm personally shocked that Adam Morrison is as bad as he is. So I don't know what to say there.
College doesn't always translate to the pros, but Division 1 players from championship teams translate a hell of a lot more than players from NAIA schools. That's what I'm saying.
Sure, I can, he was an all-american from a great college program that won titles. He was the main player on the Duke team that was in the tourney, i don't follow ncaa ball so I don't know how far he got but he certainly holds more college records than hill. I was just making a point with it.
Sure no one would take Hill Top 3 knowing the injuries. But I'm not sure the what point you're trying to make with that comment? There's a lot of guys that wouldn't have been taken where they were.

Thats why revisonist history isn't appropriate. Breaking him down as a player isn't really possible. You can't measure what may or may not have happened. If hill hadn't tried to play through the pain in the playoffs and ruin his ankle and then rush back, who knows how good Orlando could have been with a prime Tmac and Hill. Thats life.
 

houheffna

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The only revisionist of history in this argument is from you. Jordan working with Pippen...fact..Jordan helped make Pippen's game better?...fact, documented fact according to Phil Jackson and others. Maybe you can't handle the truth but Jordan made all of his teammates better, he happened to take one under his wing, and Pippen's game reflected that.
 

Kush77

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TheStig wrote:
Kush77 wrote:

You can't compare Grant Hill to JJ Redick. I'm personally shocked that Adam Morrison is as bad as he is. So I don't know what to say there.
College doesn't always translate to the pros, but Division 1 players from championship teams translate a hell of a lot more than players from NAIA schools. That's what I'm saying.
Sure, I can, he was an all-american from a great college program that won titles. He was the main player on the Duke team that was in the tourney, i don't follow ncaa ball so I don't know how far he got but he certainly holds more college records than hill. I was just making a point with it.
Sure no one would take Hill Top 3 knowing the injuries. But I'm not sure the what point you're trying to make with that comment? There's a lot of guys that wouldn't have been taken where they were.

Thats why revisonist history isn't appropriate. Breaking him down as a player isn't really possible. You can't measure what may or may not have happened. If hill hadn't tried to play through the pain in the playoffs and ruin his ankle and then rush back, who knows how good Orlando could have been with a prime Tmac and Hill. Thats life.

No, there's no comparison. Grant Hill was a legit NBA prospect. 6 foot 7 do-it-all type of small forward in the mold of Scottie Pippen. NBA Scottie Pippen, not Central Arkansas Scottie Pippen. JJ Redick is a specialist in the NBA and he's doing well. In the college game he could be more successful being a specialist. But when he got to the NBA he wasn't going to be a star.

Ask any Duke fan who they would rather have as their best player, Grant Hill or JJ Redick. and JJ redick never won a title. Grant Hill was on 2 title teams and was the main man on the Duke team that lost to Arkansas in the 1994 title game.

A player being drafted #5 from an NAIA school is a project, bottom line. Scottie Pippen was a project and Grant Hill was legit. If they were both in the same draft I'm pretty sure all GM's would have taken Hill over Pippen. Pippen went to the right place and it worked.

And I can measure what may or may not have happened because can you make a list of how many NAIA players have made it to the NBA? Not many. So Scottie chances of becoming an NBA star were far less than Grant Hill's.

Grant Hill also made an all-star game a few years ago, so he was able to have a decent year after all the injuries.
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Kush77 wrote:

You can't compare Grant Hill to JJ Redick. I'm personally shocked that Adam Morrison is as bad as he is. So I don't know what to say there.
College doesn't always translate to the pros, but Division 1 players from championship teams translate a hell of a lot more than players from NAIA schools. That's what I'm saying.
Sure, I can, he was an all-american from a great college program that won titles. He was the main player on the Duke team that was in the tourney, i don't follow ncaa ball so I don't know how far he got but he certainly holds more college records than hill. I was just making a point with it.
Sure no one would take Hill Top 3 knowing the injuries. But I'm not sure the what point you're trying to make with that comment? There's a lot of guys that wouldn't have been taken where they were.

Thats why revisonist history isn't appropriate. Breaking him down as a player isn't really possible. You can't measure what may or may not have happened. If hill hadn't tried to play through the pain in the playoffs and ruin his ankle and then rush back, who knows how good Orlando could have been with a prime Tmac and Hill. Thats life.

No, there's no comparison. Grant Hill was a legit NBA prospect. 6 foot 7 do-it-all type of small forward in the mold of Scottie Pippen. NBA Scottie Pippen, not Central Arkansas Scottie Pippen. JJ Redick is a specialist in the NBA and he's doing well. In the college game he could be more successful being a specialist. But when he got to the NBA he wasn't going to be a star.

Ask any Duke fan who they would rather have as their best player, Grant Hill or JJ Redick. and JJ redick never won a title. Grant Hill was on 2 title teams and was the main man on the Duke team that lost to Arkansas in the 1994 title game.

A player being drafted #5 from an NAIA school is a project, bottom line. Scottie Pippen was a project and Grant Hill was legit. If they were both in the same draft I'm pretty sure all GM's would have taken Hill over Pippen. Pippen went to the right place and it worked.

And I can measure what may or may not have happened because can you make a list of how many NAIA players have made it to the NBA? Not many. So Scottie chances of becoming an NBA star were far less than Grant Hill's.

Grant Hill also made an all-star game a few years ago, so he was able to have a decent year after all the injuries.

Kush, I was just messing with you about Reddick. I was just pointing out that both came from the same school and did a lot when they were there. Reddick owns a lot of college records. Hill was clearly a better prospect as he may not have been the scorer but Reddick never had the athletics to be able to be dominant in the NBA.

No one is debating who was a more polished prospect coming out of college. Pippen was raw but he had the talent, ability and athletics to be able to come out of a naia, thats something that 99% of other naia prospects haven't done by going top 5. That shows people thought he was special coming out. Saying that he couldn't be a perineal allstar without mj is baseless.

So, AI barely played and was voted an allstar starter. fans are stupid.
 

houheffna

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Kush, I was just messing with you about Reddick.

Thats a lie, you tried to present that as a valid argument...now you realize how invalid it is to the debate at hand and you want to pass it off as a joke...you compared Hill to Redick when talking about NBA readiness. own up to it...

So what do you mean Pippen was raw? Raw how? Concerning the NBA game? Okay, makes sense, so the athleticism and "raw" ability that Pippen had needed to be molded...right. Jordan was instrumental in getting Pippen acclimated to the NBA game, he taught him HOW to succeed in the NBA, hot to play his position, and Pippen became an allstar. He had the abilities to succed but he didn't know how, someone taught him how. From all I have read and heard, that person initially was Jordan, and Pippen wanted it that way.
 

Kush77

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I know AI got in through fan voting, but when Hill made the All-star team a few years back, he actually was having a good year.

I guess I can point to Scottie's rookie year stats. 7.9 ppg 46% FR 3.8 rebs 2 assists.

You'd typically expect more from a #5 pick, but Scottie was a project. A great athlete, but a project.

He continued to get better every year. Does that same progression happen without playing on a good team with the league's best player and a great coach in Jackson? I don't know if it does. I'm not saying I'm right, I just have doubt.
 

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