Countdown To The Trade Deadline: Up To Date Rumors And Discussion(Hawks Edition)

[DMelt36]

Doesn't help the team? He'd certainly help the 4th line & PK.

I hate to give Jesse Rogers to much credit because he doesn't do much to deserve it, but I will say he's been harping on the fact that the Hawks' PK forwards really don't block that many shots. You know Burish's crazy ass would throw himself in the way of those missiles.

 

[tbo41fan]

Andrew Shaw, I felt, was a poor man's Adam Burish.

This seems like a very Chicago-thing to do. Team needs a player? Let's bring someone back from the glory years to do that. Remember when people wanted the Hawks to sign JR back in '09 to be the 4th line center?

JR's a bit different from Burish, but I get your point...lol

 

[southern_cross_116]

I hate to give Jesse Rogers to much credit because he doesn't do much to deserve it, but I will say he's been harping on the fact that the Hawks' PK forwards really don't block that many shots. You know Burish's crazy ass would throw himself in the way of those missiles.

Jesse then should maybe explain how many times he has ever been on any penalty killing unit (as a forward) at any level of the game.

I don't think he has been (any level means just that - any league no matter the skill level -plus also having had actual coaching).... and as a forward, -and one who has been on penalty killing units whenever I was on a team -as a forward, you do not do the shot blocking thing because your job is to take away the PASSING LANES.... you also don't chase the damned puck -but play the fricking box...

you do the try to block the shot deal up high (and considering it is a little like brining in outfielders to pitch in baseball games -or pitchers batting) and congrats there Sparky, but you just created a nice fat screen or redirection -and your goalie probably wants to kill you now.

Seriously, Jessie ought to get out there and try it- or maybe just find the book Ice Hockey for Dummies and give it a browse.

That is disappointing, really .. that some joker gets paid to talk stupid crap like that professionally -all it does is create a lot of ignorant hockey followers :wah:

 

[icehogfan08]

because our defense and goaltending is golden?

Not by any means. We have more two way players, Tampa doesn't jhave many if any

 

[DMelt36]

Jesse then should maybe explain how many times he has ever been on any penalty killing unit (as a forward) at any level of the game.

I don't think he has been (any level means just that - any league no matter the skill level -plus also having had actual coaching).... and as a forward, -and one who has been on penalty killing units whenever I was on a team -as a forward, you do not do the shot blocking thing because your job is to take away the PASSING LANES.... you also don't chase the damned puck -but play the fricking box...

you do the try to block the shot deal up high (and considering it is a little like brining in outfielders to pitch in baseball games -or pitchers batting) and congrats there Sparky, but you just created a nice fat screen or redirection -and your goalie probably wants to kill you now.

Seriously, Jessie ought to get out there and try it- or maybe just find the book Ice Hockey for Dummies and give it a browse.

That is disappointing, really .. that some joker gets paid to talk stupid crap like that professionally -all it does is create a lot of ignorant hockey followers :wah:

Agreed.

I think the reason why his blocked shots argument gets any merit is because of how frequently the Hawks PP point men are able to find the shin pads of the opposing PKers. Duncan Keith, especially.

 

[DewsSox79]

The fact that Stamkos has 39 goals, 66 points and is only a +5 speaks volumes

Toews has only 28 goals, 54 points, is on a team that just went on a 9 game losing streak where they got murdered in goal differential and is still a +16

plus/minus in your debate is funny. plus/minus is a horrible stat to base an evaluation on a single player. plus/minus is figured with 6 players on the ice at one given time, in this it would be stamkos. plus/minus does not state whether that specific player had a positive or negative contribution to the plus goal or minus goal. you might want to find a different stat to debate your case.

 

[DewsSox79]

stamkos: OPS 8.4 DPS 1.2=9.6
Toews: OPS 5.8 DPS 1.6=7.4

I can keep going.

 

[DMelt36]

stamkos: OPS 8.4 DPS 1.2=9.6
Toews: OPS 5.8 DPS 1.6=7.4

I can keep going.

I don't see how his On Base+Slugging Percentage is relevant here.

 

[DewsSox79]

I don't see how his On Base+Slugging Percentage is relevant here.

its called point shares per offense and defense. Its not 100% accurate like your conventional stats like goals/assists....but its good to use to compare players. when you compare if they are real close on OPS and DPS the debate is non existent since it isnt 100% accurate, but if there is a descent sized gap it will tell ya who is better. in this case it states a big swing from a total 9.6 of stamkos to a 7.4 of toews. Now with that said if you are primarily factoring in CAP and what not I can see your point to an extent.

 

[DMelt36]

its called point shares per offense and defense. Its not 100% accurate like your conventional stats like goals/assists....but its good to use to compare players. when you compare if they are real close on OPS and DPS the debate is non existent since it isnt 100% accurate, but if there is a descent sized gap it will tell ya who is better. in this case it states a big swing from a total 9.6 of stamkos to a 7.4 of toews. Now with that said if you are primarily factoring in CAP and what not I can see your point to an extent.

What do they mean by point shares?

Here's another hockey sabermetric I've seen a lot: the CORSI rating. This is the on-ice shot differential (goals + saves + missed shots + blocks) and it's averaged out over a 60-minute game. Basically, the higher the CORSI rating, the more likely it is that your team is on offense while you're on the ice.

Toews: 17.91 (12th over all in the league)
Stamkos : 0.84 (207th)

And a few others, just for fun:

Chris Kunitz is #1 in the league
Sedins are No. 2. and No. 5
Malkin is 4
Datsyuk is 8
Viktor freaking Stalberg is No. 14. Wow.

If you're interested, here's the link:

BEHIND THE NET: Hockey Analysis and Statistics [new host]

 

[DewsSox79]

What do they mean by point shares?

Here's another hockey sabermetric I've seen a lot: the CORSI rating. This is the on-ice shot differential (goals + saves + missed shots + blocks) and it's averaged out over a 60-minute game. Basically, the higher the CORSI rating, the more likely it is that your team is on offense while you're on the ice.

Toews: 17.91 (12th over all in the league)
Stamkos : 0.84 (207th)

And a few others, just for fun:

Chris Kunitz is #1 in the league
Sedins are No. 2. and No. 5
Malkin is 4
Datsyuk is 8
Viktor freaking Stalberg is No. 14. Wow.

If you're interested, here's the link:

BEHIND THE NET: Hockey Analysis and Statistics [new host]

nice find! baseball saber to the public is so far behind, it has to be even farther with hockey.

 

[Capt. Serious]

Stammer vs Toews this season

Stammer:

39 goals, 27 assists, +5, 8 GWG (3rd in NHL), 200 SOG (top 10 in NHL) & 76 hits isn't too shabby for a guy with his skill.

Toews:

28 goals, 26 assists, +16, 4 GWG, 182 SOG

Toews is a damn good hockey player but lets stop being silly that he's better than Stammer, who's also 2 yrs younger.

 

[DMelt36]

Stammer vs Toews this season

Stammer:

39 goals, 27 assists, +5, 8 GWG (3rd in NHL), 200 SOG (top 10 in NHL) & 76 hits isn't too shabby for a guy with his skill.

Toews:

28 goals, 26 assists, +16, 4 GWG, 182 SOG

Toews is a damn good hockey player but lets stop being silly that he's better than Stammer, who's also 2 yrs younger.

You're merely posting offensive stats which favors Stamkos, who is more offensively-skilled than Toews is. But Toews can do so much more than just offense. I'd give ya Malkin and Datsyuk from the 3 players that Dews listed. But Stamkos I'm not completely sold on him being better than Toews because he's only about offense. Malkin and Datsyuk, meanwhile, do it all.

And between the last two I mentioned, I'd lean more towards Malkin because of age. Datsyuk is 33, and while still very much an incredible player, he's going to slow down. Eventually. I hope. At least, sooner than Malkin or Toews would.

 

[tbo41fan]

plus/minus in your debate is funny. plus/minus is a horrible stat to base an evaluation on a single player. plus/minus is figured with 6 players on the ice at one given time, in this it would be stamkos. plus/minus does not state whether that specific player had a positive or negative contribution to the plus goal or minus goal. you might want to find a different stat to debate your case.

Again, the argument is who is the better all around player, what stat would you like to use to determine someone's offensive AND defensive worth?

Stamkos is NOT a 2 way forward

Stammer vs Toews this season

Stammer:

39 goals, 27 assists, +5, 8 GWG (3rd in NHL), 200 SOG (top 10 in NHL) & 76 hits isn't too shabby for a guy with his skill.

Toews:

28 goals, 26 assists, +16, 4 GWG, 182 SOG

Toews is a damn good hockey player but lets stop being silly that he's better than Stammer, who's also 2 yrs younger.

Again, learn to read (if you know how to)

the argument is ALL AROUND PLAYER...that includes defensive play

ill take slightly less offensive numbers for a player that plays offense AND defense

 

[tbo41fan]

You're merely posting offensive stats which favors Stamkos, who is more offensively-skilled than Toews is. But Toews can do so much more than just offense. I'd give ya Malkin and Datsyuk from the 3 players that Dews listed. But Stamkos I'm not completely sold on him being better than Toews because he's only about offense. Malkin and Datsyuk, meanwhile, do it all.

And between the last two I mentioned, I'd lean more towards Malkin because of age. Datsyuk is 33, and while still very much an incredible player, he's going to slow down. Eventually. I hope. At least, sooner than Malkin or Toews would.

See joe doesnt believe in defensive hockey...players 'suck' to him if they dont score 3 points per game

 

[tbo41fan]

stamkos: OPS 8.4 DPS 1.2=9.6
Toews: OPS 5.8 DPS 1.6=7.4

I can keep going.

thats funny...sabermetrics in baseball=STUPID

sabermetrics in hockey=ok only if it proves my point

 

[DewsSox79]

thats funny...sabermetrics in baseball=STUPID

sabermetrics in hockey=ok only if it proves my point

its not sabermetrics plus/minus boy

 

[DewsSox79]

Player Bio - Steven Stamkos

*** see assets

Bolts' Stamkos becoming total package | TBO.com

also, you have to be a 2 way player to be the best player?! really?

 

[DewsSox79]

also using note that in baseball one can use saber, but not alone as I have always stated.EXAMPLE: do not use WAR by itself to evaluate a player. We have been over this many many times but yet you and your board battle lover like to try to twist words to think that you got me on this debate. its too amusing.

now let me guess Im gonna get "lulz, you mad brah, board battlez 4 life, board battlez >> greater than anything"

 

[Everyday I'm Byfuglien]

Remember when people wanted the Hawks to sign JR back in '09 to be the 4th line center?

That was 07-08, wasn't it?

I thought that was a good idea. Veteran guy for dirt cheap + a super young team that didn't yet have sky high expectations. Just seemed like a good fit.

Add in that JR really wanted to play for Chicago and the fact that he would pot #500 with the Hawks... for a team that is so gung ho about marketing it seemed like an absolute no brainer.

Ah well.