Cubs Argument thread/D3A's explainin thread

[FirstTimer]

d3a seems to have the patience of his children.

REBUILDING WILL TAKE MAR TIME AND BE HARD!

I DEMAND IMMEDIETE SATISFACTION!

 

[daddies3angels]

When Fielder enters the mid 30's, his body will warn down and be more in DH mode. Also, in the AL, teams can keep him in the lineup but give him an AL 'day off'.

i agree the DH will help him. You or I know if his body will wear down. That just your opinion. Of all this arguing my point is that Cubs being big market and expecting Cub fans to pay like it but Cubs think its okay not to put a legit product on the field just bothers me. Again all this is just my opinion how Cubs should do it. I know most you agree with way the Cubs are doing it. As i have said i hope your right. I just think its sad for Cub fans that have been follwing this team 40 yrs plus to be even more patient. Even Dusty made comment yesterday its tough to ask a fan base that hasnt won in 103 yrs to be patient on a rebuild that could very easlily FAIL. If rebuilding was so easy all bad teams would do it and we see different teams in playoffs every 5 years. But we dont. We see the same type of teams in playoffs. NYY (big market) BOS (big market) PHI (big market) LAA (big market) DET (big market), then yes your medium to small market teams do make it. TBR, STL,. As you can see though spending money helps get you there more then those who build within every year.

 

[FirstTimer]

Unfortunately I think Milwaukee shot their load when they traded the farm for Greinke and Marcum. However the core of the team is very much intact with Braun and Hart at the corners and Rickie Weeks in the infield. Their rotation is also deceptively good behind Greinke and Gallardo. So you can't just look at the Brewers losing Fielder and say "ZOMFG they're weak, attack!"

Same with the Cardinals and Reds.

The team as of now, without Pena and Ramirez, is projected to win about 70 games. Let's say you add Fielder. If you're lucky he gives you five extra wins. Now let's say you added Roy Oswalt and Edwin Jackson. You're not entirely sure what Jackson brings, but he'd probably only net you a win or two, tops, for 8-figure salaries. Oswalt is old and broken even if he does come cheap. Maybe you keep Ramirez (and his crap defense) and he adds three wins. You've just added (optimistically) ten wins to your team and they're still under .500, still out of the playoffs, and still expensive, and next year those players are more than likely going to get worse.

I fail to understand how that is a good plan.

Excellent post.

 

[daddies3angels]

d3a seems to have the patience of his children.

REBUILDING WILL TAKE MAR TIME AND BE HARD!

I DEMAND IMMEDIETE SATISFACTION!

For a team that hasnt won in 103 yrs... For a team that is the laughing stock of all pro sports. YES!!! People should expect team to try to win NOW!!!! Every time i see that MLB THE SHOW commericial i cringe. They are making fun of the Cubs cause they are LOSERS! Cub fans have a taste of playoffs now. Have been there 3 times in last 9 years. Alot of teams WOULD LOVE to be in playoffs 3 times in 9 years. Once in playoffs anything can happen. The best team usually dont win. I dont know when it became ok to be a loser. Im raising my kids to WIN!!! I want my kids to know that there are losers and winners. Im not teaching my kids its ok to be a loser. You guys seem to be ok with losing.

 

[FirstTimer]

You or I know if his body will wear down

Looking hisotrically at players of Fielders size they wear down much more quickly.

I just think its sad for Cub fans that have been follwing this team 40 yrs plus to be even more patient.

**** them.

Even Dusty made comment yesterday

LOL at you quoting Dusty.

I'm also sure Dusty would love to see the Cubs spend a shitload of stupid money.

It would help him out.

As you can see though spending money

Again.

No one has ever said the Cubs should cease spending money and turn into the Devil Rays.

S.
T.
F.
U.

 

[FirstTimer]

For a team that hasnt won in 103 yrs... For a team that is the laughing stock of all pro sports. YES!!! People should expect team to try to win NOW!!!!

Umm...

Actually if a team hasn't won in 103 years the fans shouldn't expect them to win now..or ever.

Hence the 103 years.

Cub fans have a taste of playoffs now. Have been there 3 times in last 9 years.

That's sad that making the playoffs 3 times in 9 seasons is "a taste of the playoffs".

:rolling:

Im raising my kids to WIN!!!

From your postings here it would appear you are raising them to fail if you are in charge.

You guys seem to be ok with losing.

Wrong.

What we understand here is how to build a real winner and what it actually takes.

 

[daddies3angels]

Looking hisotrically at players of Fielders size they wear down much more quickly.


**** them.



LOL at you quoting Dusty.

I'm also sure Dusty would love to see the Cubs spend a shitload of stupid money.

It would help him out.


Again.

No one has ever said the Cubs should cease spending money and turn into the Devil Rays.

S.
T.
F.
U.

And thats why your a tool. You dont care that fans like my dad, my grandfathers, my uncles have been watching losing teams for decades.

 

[FirstTimer]

In further review.

Ricket's never plans to spend money on the big league club according to d3a...yet Rickett's brought in Theo Epstein who just oversaw a club with the 2nd highest payroll in baseball for the last 8 years.




d3a fail

 

[daddies3angels]

Umm...

Actually if a team hasn't won in 103 years the fans shouldn't expect them to win now..or ever.

Hence the 103 years.


That's sad that making the playoffs 3 times in 9 seasons is "a taste of the playoffs".

:rolling:



From your postings here it would appear you are raising them to fail if you are in charge.



Wrong.

What we understand here is how to build a real winner and what it actually takes.

You dont understand how to build a winner. You guys are just sucking in every word that the Cubs brass saids. If they said playin baseball on the moon would help them win in 5 yrs you guys would be all for it

 

[FirstTimer]

You dont care that fans like my dad, my grandfathers, my uncles have been watching losing teams for decades.

Actually I care more than you do about your family because I want the Cubs built the right way so your family can spend the rest of their lives watching a real organization being built and run and win consistantly rather than your shitheaded haphazard throwing around of money at a shitty team with no real base or direction prior to Theo coming in.

BTW, as the Cubs payroll has grown over the last 5-6 years...they've gotten worse. They are like the anti-Yankees/Red Sox

 

[daddies3angels]

In further review.

Ricket's never plans to spend money on the big league club according to d3a...yet Rickett's brought in Theo Epstein who just oversaw a club with the 2nd highest payroll in baseball for the last 8 years.




d3a fail

Just cause BOS spent money doesnt meen Rickets will. You can think they will. In 5 yrs we will see. Im just going off the history of Ricketts in the last 3 yrs. That history shows he wont

 

[FirstTimer]

You dont understand how to build a winner.

Actually I do.

While your team was happy to make the playoffs 3 times in 9 seasons I was watching my team under the direction of the Current Cubs president/GM win almost as many WS's as the Cubs had playoff appearances.

 

[daddies3angels]

Actually I care more than you do about your family because I want the Cubs built the right way so your family can spend the rest of their lives watching a real organization being built and run and win consistantly rather than your shitheaded haphazard throwing around of money at a shitty team with no real base or direction prior to Theo coming in.

BTW, as the Cubs payroll has grown over the last 5-6 years...they've gotten worse. They are like the anti-Yankees/Red Sox

When the team went and spent in FA after 2006 season they had 3 again 3 winning years. They started losing once Rickets got there and once FA contracts were up he didnt put that money back into payroll. One thing that didnt help Rickets that i understand is that Cubs had to pay for backloaded contract.

 

[Rice Cube]

I think you've said before that you understood that the contracts during the first wave of payroll increases were backloaded. You are suggesting doing the same with the new ownership.

The difference, as has been pointed out, is that the Tribune never invested well in the minors and thus the pipeline of cheap talent that should have supplemented the high-salary stars never materialized. The payroll increase was a smokescreen that artificially inflated the value of the Cubs and the perception that the Cubs should be run akin to NYY, BOS, the Mets (well, yeah, that worked) and Philly. The problem is that the other teams I listed actually have fairly decent farm systems in place and the Cubs did not. When the 2009 Cubs fizzled, that was it for the window of opportunity and the Cubs were left with a "meh" farm system aside from Starlin Castro and Brett Jackson (who was just barely drafted), some diamonds in the rough and an albatross of a team.

Suggesting that the team should just continue to spend on free agency seems a recipe for failure to me, especially when we've already determined that the free agent class you can pick from isn't ideal.

 

[FirstTimer]

Just cause BOS spent money doesnt meen Rickets will. You can think they will. In 5 yrs we will see. Im just going off the history of Ricketts in the last 3 yrs. That history shows he wont

And the history of Epstein says Epstein will.

On top of all this Ricketts is already been shown willing to spend mond. Please refernece the 1.4 billion number from early, the academy in the DR, the offer to Soler..also the price he paid to bring in Theo and Co. to actually build the team.

Your "history" of Ricketts is wrong.

 

[daddies3angels]

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tt7HjIernphaSrv4wMWdUYg&output=html

They have NO money tied up in after his year. They could have very easily spent money this offseason to make the team competitive WHILE building up the farm that will take 4-6 years

 

[Rice Cube]

When the team went and spent in FA after 2006 season they had 3 again 3 winning years. They started losing once Rickets got there and once FA contracts were up he didnt put that money back into payroll.

I think you're being a bit myopic here.

While the Ricketts family are billionaires, they do have finite pockets. The Tribue never actually renovated Wrigley Field properly, so there's money that needs to be redirected there. They never were able to explore alternative revenue streams (partly due to the city and neighborhood) so there's more money they have to come up with. And we've already established that not enough was being done to support the minor league system (evaluation, development, training etc).

Running a baseball team culminates in a good MLB squad, but that's only the tip of the iceberg, as they say. There's a lot more that goes on underneath. I'm not sure you completely understand that.

 

[daddies3angels]

I think you've said before that you understood that the contracts during the first wave of payroll increases were backloaded. You are suggesting doing the same with the new ownership.

The difference, as has been pointed out, is that the Tribune never invested well in the minors and thus the pipeline of cheap talent that should have supplemented the high-salary stars never materialized. The payroll increase was a smokescreen that artificially inflated the value of the Cubs and the perception that the Cubs should be run akin to NYY, BOS, the Mets (well, yeah, that worked) and Philly. The problem is that the other teams I listed actually have fairly decent farm systems in place and the Cubs did not. When the 2009 Cubs fizzled, that was it for the window of opportunity and the Cubs were left with a "meh" farm system aside from Starlin Castro and Brett Jackson (who was just barely drafted), some diamonds in the rough and an albatross of a team.

Suggesting that the team should just continue to spend on free agency seems a recipe for failure to me, especially when we've already determined that the free agent class you can pick from isn't ideal.

I agree Tribune didnt help Cubs by putting into farm. i agree 100% with that. What im saying while team is building up farm for next 4-6 years they could have spent on MLB payroll. Once young players started coming up that will make a difference then payroll would start going down.

 

[FirstTimer]

When the team went and spent in FA after 2006 season they had 3 again 3 winning years.

Umm they had two winning seasons then started to fall off in 2009 pretty drastically (to barely over 500) before RIcketts even came in.

2010 and 2011 were albatross eyars as a direct result of the shitty high spending teh Cubs did to obtain some short term results (and 1st round exits) in 2007 and 2008.

Ironically enough the Cubs team that was the closest to the WS had a $79 million payroll in 2003 and was built on GASP. Young talent and smart trades..and steroids. But lets just ignore that.

If anything pointing to the 2007-2008 Cubs prves OUR point. Not yours.

Building for a short term boom then only to have to deal with a rebuild and bad contracts for the next 4-5 years isn't worth it. Building intelligently with smart spending, a deeper farm system, smart people at the top etc is the way to go. The Red Sox and Yankees can afford to have a shitty year or a collapse because they have the infrastructure in place.

The Cubs do not.

They are starting to build it.

That's the point.

You suck.

I think you've said before that you understood that the contracts during the first wave of payroll increases were backloaded. You are suggesting doing the same with the new ownership.

The difference, as has been pointed out, is that the Tribune never invested well in the minors and thus the pipeline of cheap talent that should have supplemented the high-salary stars never materialized. The payroll increase was a smokescreen that artificially inflated the value of the Cubs and the perception that the Cubs should be run akin to NYY, BOS, the Mets (well, yeah, that worked) and Philly. The problem is that the other teams I listed actually have fairly decent farm systems in place and the Cubs did not. When the 2009 Cubs fizzled, that was it for the window of opportunity and the Cubs were left with a "meh" farm system aside from Starlin Castro and Brett Jackson (who was just barely drafted), some diamonds in the rough and an albatross of a team.

Suggesting that the team should just continue to spend on free agency seems a recipe for failure to me, especially when we've already determined that the free agent class you can pick from isn't ideal.

Bingo.

 

[Rice Cube]

Something that should also be said is that the Ricketts probably are prepared to have their team suck for a little while in order to get their house in order and do this right. They are probably well aware that ticket sales will lag and that they'll have to get creative with marketing while simultaneously doing their rebuild right. It's difficult to imagine billionaires not having cash reserves to tide themselves over while construction is going on. I'm pretty sure that the Ricketts family wouldn't let Theo and friends do a full-on demolition if they were concerned about dying grandfathers and media/fan perception.