Cubs Farm System And Prospects Discussion Thread

beckdawg

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I'm not quite sure what to make of Felix Pena. On the one hand he's 26 and has never really been considered a top prospect. On the other, he pitched pretty well in AA last season and is off to an even better start in AAA this season. Kind of wondering if he isn't just a late bloomer.
 

CSF77

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I'm not quite sure what to make of Felix Pena. On the one hand he's 26 and has never really been considered a top prospect. On the other, he pitched pretty well in AA last season and is off to an even better start in AAA this season. Kind of wondering if he isn't just a late bloomer.

Don't think they are a fan of him. Was a starter and is not a part of the rotation. Outside of Johnson and Williams the rotation is just scrubs.

The fact he was pushed aside means he is not viewed at all

The only guys worth watching in Iowa are Almora, and Conteras for next year. Both are hitting over .300. Then Vogelbach for him building trade value. Even Johnson has not separated himself this year as staff ace.

That team is borderline unwatchable.
 

beckdawg

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Kyle Twomey looks like he might be a steal. His ERA is still crap but the underlying numbers are fantastic. Over 49 innings in the minors thus far he has a 3.7 bb/9 and a 9.6 k/9. Those are even better if you just focus on this year at 10.4 k/9 and 2.4 bb/9. Twomey's an interesting guy because he was a 3rd round pick in 2012 but didn't quite progress like expected in college. Also doesn't hurt he's a lefty. Cubs are a bit weak on LHP with him Bryan Hudson, Steele and Sands being their only majors LHP arms.
 

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I guess the main difference here is that I don't ever expect him to play for the Cubs and his value in trade will increase with development and promotions in the minors...
This is the biggest reason why I don't think he should be slow played in the minors. Prospects do matter in trades.
 

TC in Mississippi

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Almora and Conteras remain smoking hot at Iowa. Almora is at .310/.347/.460 with 3 HR and Contreras at .338/.448/.465 with 1 HR. while you'd like to see both of these kids develop a little in game power the rest of their offensive games dovetail perfectly with the major league philosophy. I think both will make an impact in Chicago at some point certainly by next year.
 

beckdawg

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When pitching trade talk comes up Hendricks is generally a name that surfaces among most people. I'm obviously not one of them as I think Hendricks is really underrated. However, I do understand some of the logic people are using. In that thought process, I'm wondering if Ryan Williams just isn't a better guy for that sort of idea. Effectively from a scouting perspective they would seem to be very similar pitchers. I don't have Hendricks' scouting reports from the minors at hand but i generally think they had like a 50-55 grade on his sinker and a 60 on his change up with nothing else being better than average(probably 45 grade). Williams has a 60 grade sinker and 45 grade change curve and slider. He also has 65 grade command. That plus if you're a rebuilding team and you think they are roughly similar players, Williams with more control is better for you. He's probably going to be MLB ready by midseason. Hendricks having a more proven track record probably makes him more valuable but then if you're the cubs why wouldn't you keep him?

It would seem to me that pairing Williams with a higher tier prospect(maybe Candelario) would get a conversation started. Keep in mind when the cubs traded away Dempster they got back Villanueva and Hendricks. Villanueva I don't believe ever was quite as highly thought of as Candelario is at the moment though I do think it was close right at the time of the trade. Since then Villanueava has fallen back a bunch though Hendricks obviously has seen his stock rise.

I'd be curious to know how close Candelario and Williams would get the cubs to Teheran. The braves lack an immediate 3B option unless they see Dansby Swanson there. Ozzie Albies is also one of their top prospects as a SS. So in theory you could have one of those two play 2B and still need a 3B. 2B and 3B has been a total land mine for them thus far. Their 4 players at 3B have combined for a -1.3 fWAR(Beckham, Reid Brignac, Daniel Castro and Adonis Garcia). They've played 6 guys at 2B and combined for a similar -1.3 fWAR there(Chase d'Arnaud, Beckham, Brignac, Kelly Johnson, Castro and Jace Peterson). If I had to guess you'd probably need one more legit player and perhaps a sweetener prospect to make the deal for Teheran work but getting 2 near MLB ready players would seem to be desirable for the braves who will open a new stadium in a couple of years.

Edit: one other thing I forgot, the Braves by all indications have already agreed to out spend their IFA budget. I believe they have agreements in place with several of the top 20 IFA's. The cubs will be in penalty for this past spending spree and can't spent more than $300k IIRC on any individual player. So, they could in theory add their 2nd, 3rd and 4th slots in a trade as a little sweetener and keep their bigger chunk themselves for anyone they sign in the 300k range. Those slots aren't particularly valuable but can probably be seen as a similar low tier prospect in the back end of a deal.
 

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When pitching trade talk comes up Hendricks is generally a name that surfaces among most people. I'm obviously not one of them as I think Hendricks is really underrated. However, I do understand some of the logic people are using. In that thought process, I'm wondering if Ryan Williams just isn't a better guy for that sort of idea. Effectively from a scouting perspective they would seem to be very similar pitchers. I don't have Hendricks' scouting reports from the minors at hand but i generally think they had like a 50-55 grade on his sinker and a 60 on his change up with nothing else being better than average(probably 45 grade). Williams has a 60 grade sinker and 45 grade change curve and slider. He also has 65 grade command. That plus if you're a rebuilding team and you think they are roughly similar players, Williams with more control is better for you. He's probably going to be MLB ready by midseason. Hendricks having a more proven track record probably makes him more valuable but then if you're the cubs why wouldn't you keep him?

It would seem to me that pairing Williams with a higher tier prospect(maybe Candelario) would get a conversation started. Keep in mind when the cubs traded away Dempster they got back Villanueva and Hendricks. Villanueva I don't believe ever was quite as highly thought of as Candelario is at the moment though I do think it was close right at the time of the trade. Since then Villanueava has fallen back a bunch though Hendricks obviously has seen his stock rise.

I'd be curious to know how close Candelario and Williams would get the cubs to Teheran. The braves lack an immediate 3B option unless they see Dansby Swanson there. Ozzie Albies is also one of their top prospects as a SS. So in theory you could have one of those two play 2B and still need a 3B. 2B and 3B has been a total land mine for them thus far. Their 4 players at 3B have combined for a -1.3 fWAR(Beckham, Reid Brignac, Daniel Castro and Adonis Garcia). They've played 6 guys at 2B and combined for a similar -1.3 fWAR there(Chase d'Arnaud, Beckham, Brignac, Kelly Johnson, Castro and Jace Peterson). If I had to guess you'd probably need one more legit player and perhaps a sweetener prospect to make the deal for Teheran work but getting 2 near MLB ready players would seem to be desirable for the braves who will open a new stadium in a couple of years.

Edit: one other thing I forgot, the Braves by all indications have already agreed to out spend their IFA budget. I believe they have agreements in place with several of the top 20 IFA's. The cubs will be in penalty for this past spending spree and can't spent more than $300k IIRC on any individual player. So, they could in theory add their 2nd, 3rd and 4th slots in a trade as a little sweetener and keep their bigger chunk themselves for anyone they sign in the 300k range. Those slots aren't particularly valuable but can probably be seen as a similar low tier prospect in the back end of a deal.

So the Braves are going to trade a young and incredibly cost controlled starting pitcher for a 24 year old AAA who projects at his highest to a back end rotation guy and for a 22 year old 3B who has a decent bat but is a poor fielder and is struggling with AA pitching.

First off, Calendario wouldn't even be the best 3B in their system as the Braves have Austin Riley (a similar prospect to Calendario but three years younger).

I think the Braves would ask for McKinney (probably becomes their best OF prospect), Underwood (a young SP who has high upside), and a depth guy like Taylor Davis.
 

beckdawg

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So the Braves are going to trade a young and incredibly cost controlled starting pitcher for a 24 year old AAA who projects at his highest to a back end rotation guy and for a 22 year old 3B who has a decent bat but is a poor fielder and is struggling with AA pitching.

First off, Calendario wouldn't even be the best 3B in their system as the Braves have Austin Riley (a similar prospect to Calendario but three years younger).

I think the Braves would ask for McKinney (probably becomes their best OF prospect), Underwood (a young SP who has high upside), and a depth guy like Taylor Davis.

Riley is 19. He's AT LEAST 3 years away and probably 4+. I tend to agree they might like McKinney but that was who I was thinking of as the additional prospect. Honestly was thinking something like Candelario + McKinney + Williams + IFA slots. While it's not an overwhelming offer a la the Miller trade, it's also 3 more or less MLB ready players on a team that is garbage right now. I doubt you're going to find anyone else who can offer that. So, sure you might be able to get better true talent players, you're probably talking guys who are farther away and the inherent risk there.

Plus like I mentioned they are opening a new stadium soon. You don't want to do that with the team they have right now. You want something at least half way passable so people come out. With the 3 I mentioned you could realistically plug all 3 in more or less next season and maybe late this year. They would have a year or two to adjust to the majors before the stadium opens.

Also, the thing to remember is that Atlanta is not a large market team. Their opening day salary the past 5 years has been $86.5, $97, $112, $90, and $93.5 mil. Being able to slot in 2 positional starters making the league min and a #5 starter at that price offers them a lot of flexibility else where that they are going to need to sign vets similar to the way the cubs have worked in Fowler and Montero.
 

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If I am the Cubs, I am holding on to Underwood or making him a main piece. I wouldn't add him as throw in. He is working hard on those secondary pitches to be consistent and they are both flashing plus.

Oh, and for everyone saying promote Happ. He has slumped pretty hard recently. He will get promoted, but Im sure the Cubs have a timeline.
 

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Riley is 19. He's AT LEAST 3 years away and probably 4+.

Sure he's four years away, Calendario is at best two years away as well. Also, the Braves are in no rush to try and win in the the next two+ years.

I tend to agree they might like McKinney but that was who I was thinking of as the additional prospect. Honestly was thinking something like Candelario + McKinney + Williams + IFA slots.

The problem with that deal is they simply don't get back an arm that gives them hope for a better pitcher than Teheran.

While it's not an overwhelming offer a la the Miller trade, it's also 3 more or less MLB ready players on a team that is garbage right now. I doubt you're going to find anyone else who can offer that. So, sure you might be able to get better true talent players, you're probably talking guys who are farther away and the inherent risk there.

The Braves do not care about major league ready, they're the worst team in the league and outwardly tanking more so than anyone else. And while Miller was the better pitcher, Teheran has five years of team control at nothing more than 11 million. That's the part of the deal that you're massively underrating when trying to determine Teheran's value and what other teams will pay and what Atlanta will want.

Plus like I mentioned they are opening a new stadium soon. You don't want to do that with the team they have right now. You want something at least half way passable so people come out. With the 3 I mentioned you could realistically plug all 3 in more or less next season and maybe late this year. They would have a year or two to adjust to the majors before the stadium opens.

Maybe McKinney is a nice piece and maybe Calendario is a guy down the road who helps but Ryan Williams isn't "major league" even to the Braves. They have two better pitcher on their roster (Blair, Wisler) and then they have a top pick in both drafts (2016 and 2017) and two other pitchers (Newcomb, Allard) who project much higher than Williams.

If the Braves want to do a deal with the Cubs, I cannot see how the Cubs keep out one of their elite hitting prospects (Happ, Torres, Contreras) AND keep out their high ceiling pitchers. I'm not saying you offer everyone to get Teheran, I just think the Braves will want at least one guy to hang their hat on for the deal.

Also, the thing to remember is that Atlanta is not a large market team. Their opening day salary the past 5 years has been $86.5, $97, $112, $90, and $93.5 mil. Being able to slot in 2 positional starters making the league min and a #5 starter at that price offers them a lot of flexibility else where that they are going to need to sign vets similar to the way the cubs have worked in Fowler and Montero.

So you're telling me that the Braves don't have money to acquire top end talent so when they have a cost controlled pitcher who is going to be paid well under market, they should trade him for low ceiling prospects? How does that make any sense to the organization?
 

TC in Mississippi

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I don't think the Braves are going to want pitching for Teheran necessarily as they are absolutely loaded with potential TOR arms in Sean Newcomb, Aaron Blair, and Tyrell Jenkins and some lesser potential starting arms behind them. They're going to need some bats though and they would like to start seeing some good things next year with an eye to try to compete in 2018. You would figure that Freeman and Inciarte will be the only position players now starting on that competing team but Dansby Swanson might get a look late this year and probably be starting at SS next year with Ozzie Albies not far behind likely playing 2B. The biggest problem with dealing with Atlanta is that don't like Soler, but guys like McKinney and Candelerio should interest them, I just don't know if that's enough.
 

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I don't think the Braves are going to want pitching for Teheran necessarily as they are absolutely loaded with potential TOR arms in Sean Newcomb, Aaron Blair, and Tyrell Jenkins and some lesser potential starting arms behind them. They're going to need some bats though and they would like to start seeing some good things next year with an eye to try to compete in 2018. You would figure that Freeman and Inciarte will be the only position players now starting on that competing team but Dansby Swanson might get a look late this year and probably be starting at SS next year with Ozzie Albies not far behind likely playing 2B. The biggest problem with dealing with Atlanta is that don't like Soler, but guys like McKinney and Candelerio should interest them, I just don't know if that's enough.
Soler would likely be an AL trade, if I had to guess.
 

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The natural inclination of fans is to want to make a trade to improve the team. But there really isnt anything to improve right now. However, I would like to dump Soler as he brings nothing to this team
 

TC in Mississippi

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The natural inclination of fans is to want to make a trade to improve the team. But there really isnt anything to improve right now. However, I would like to dump Soler as he brings nothing to this team

"Dumping" him would be a mistake. They'e going to need to get him some at bats eventually and let him work out of this funk to raise his value.
 

beckdawg

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Sure he's four years away, Calendario is at best two years away as well. Also, the Braves are in no rush to try and win in the the next two+ years.

Candelario hit MLB pitching.... this spring. I sincerely doubt he's 2 years away and from my understanding it's more a formality that he's in AA rather than him needing much more time there. He hit .291/.379/.462 there over 182 PAs last year then hit .329/.371/.610 over 89 AFL(double-A ish level), hit extremely well this spring and despite having a poor batting average, he's still got a .318 OBP and a 92 wRC+ thus far. Think he's a lot closer than you're making out.

The problem with that deal is they simply don't get back an arm that gives them hope for a better pitcher than Teheran.

Have you seen Atlanta's farm system? Sean Newcomb #18 overall prospect, Aaron Blair #52 overall prospect, Kolby Allard #85 overall prospect, Touki Toussaint who was at some point last year a top 100 prospect and likely is 101-150ish now, Tyrell Jenkins the second big piece they got for Heyward, Manny Banuelos who was at one point a big name in the Yankee's system, Max Fried who was a former #7 overall draft pick and part of the Upton deal to SD, Lucas Sims who was a 1st round pick and I believe last year was in top 100 lists, Mike Soroka #28 pick last year, and Chris Ellis the second piece in the Simmons to LAA deal are all part of their top 15 prospects. 10 of their top 15 prospects are pitchers. They don't need top end pitching. What they need is players who can actually hit the ball. The reason I thought about Williams wasn't that he was necessarily an amazing pitcher. He's clearly BOR type. However, you still have to send someone out there and many of these names may not be MLB ready by July. Williams by all accounts will.

So you're telling me that the Braves don't have money to acquire top end talent so when they have a cost controlled pitcher who is going to be paid well under market, they should trade him for low ceiling prospects? How does that make any sense to the organization?

This last bit I'm just going to encapsulate the rest you said and shrink down to this for sake of reading. Firstly, about Teheran. For the sake of argument, let's say he's a 3.50 ERA guy. That's roughly what he's been for his career. That's basically a #3 starter. Lackey signed for $16 mil/season which means if you want to make Teheran equivalent value he'd basically be $26.7 mil cheaper over the next 4 years assuming you pick up his option. I'm not going to count this year as any move will be in july and by that point you're saving a couple of mil tops. So for the sake of argument let's say he's $30 mil cheaper than an equivalent FA over the next 4.5 years.

Needless to say he's a decent value on that contract but reports were last year that the present front office isn't as high on him as the previous regime. That's why the trade talk began in the first place because why else would any team trade a 25 year old starter? As for Teheran's value that's obviously hard to say. But I'd present to you the case of Matt Garza. I'd argue that up until the point he was traded Matt Garza had accomplished more and was more of a good #2. Garza brought back an out of no where pitcher who might not stay a starter but who had great stuff(Edwards), a broken former top 50 prospect(Olt) and two guys who graded out similar to what Williams does now(Ramirez and Grimm). Now that's not an entirely fair comparison because Garza was a FA to be and Teheran does have more control. That's also to say nothing of the deal that originally brought Garza to the cubs. Hak-Ju Lee, Chris Archer, Robinson Chirinos, Sam Fuld and Brandon Guyer wasn't an amazing haul. Lee was thought at the time to be the best player. Archer was in the top 150ish range IIRC and Chirinos, Flud and Guyer were organizational guys. To throw out another similar-ish trade, the A's got A.J. Cole, Tommy Milone, Derek Norris and Brad Peacock for Gio Gonzo. I believe Cole and Norris were like top 75-150ish prospects and Milone and Peacock were largely fillers. And I believe Gio had 2 years of team control left. But is that deal that far off what I'm suggesting in Williams, Candelario and McKinney?

Maybe the pieces just aren't there for a trade. And if so that's fairr but if they are intent on dealing him I'm not really seeing that many teams that are going to go crazy over a #3 starter with potential to be more on a good contract. The only teams that stand out to me as teams who will be buyers for that level of pitching are Boston and the Cubs. Jays I'm not sure are going to be in it and even if they are do they have the players? O's have a lot of young pitching at or near the majors already as well as a top 5 runs against in AL. Ditto for white sox, Indians, and M's. Rangers maybe but they seem to have the pitching you'd want already. Dodgers have Urias and De Leon they can call up. SF spent big this offseason on pitching. Does pit ever make substantial deals at the deadline? The Mets and nats already have really strong staffs.

Let's do it this way. Of the top 100 prospects, 61 of the 100 are position players and 21 are 2B/SS. Given where the Braves are situated think it's pretty likely they aren't after that. I already outlined their pitching depth so all things being equal I think it's also strongly unlikely the meat of any trade would be a pitcher unless that pitcher was "special(i.e. top 10)." Of the 40 remaining players 4 are listed 1B only. With Freeman there on big money for long time can't see why that's a direction they'd go unless they also deal him but that gets super complicated. To be a better deal than what I'm suggesting you'd basically have to be another team with 2 top 100 players since Candlario is likely top 125 or 150 which is close enough talent wise to bottom top 100 guys. These teams have 2 players who aren't 1B, SS or pitchers

Philly: 60 NICK WILLIAMS OF, 80 CORNELIUS RANDOLPH OF, 92 JORGE ALFARO C, 95 ROMAN QUINN OF
Milwalkee: 29 BRETT PHILLIPS OF, 79 TRENT CLARK OF
Boston: 14 RAFAEL DEVERS 3B, 22 ANDREW BENINTENDI OF
Texas: 7 JOEY GALLO 3B/OF, 13 LEWIS BRINSON OF, 15 NOMAR MAZARA OF
Colorado: 42 DAVID DAHL OF, 44 RYAN MCMAHON 3B
Pittsburgh: 17 AUSTIN MEADOWS OF, 94 REESE MCGUIRE C
Houston: 70 KYLE TUCKER OF, 71 DAZ CAMERON OF
Cleveland: 23 BRADLEY ZIMMER OF, 24 CLINT FRAZIER OF
Chicago: 46 WILLSON CONTRERAS C, 82 ALBERT ALMORA OF, 84 BILLY MCKINNEY OF
Yankees: 28 AARON JUDGE OF, 55 GARY SANCHEZ C
Cincy: 30 JESSE WINKER OF, 67 JOSE PERAZA 2B/OF
San Diego: 41 MANNY MARGOT OF, 88 HUNTER RENFROE OF
Dodgers: 97 CODY BELLINGER 1B/OF 98 ALEX VERDUGO OF

So my question to you would be which of those teams realistically would offer more than the cubs? Philly is in division which generally is a no-no. Houston, Yankees, Milwalkee, San Diego and Cincy are in the 10 worst teams in baseball. Colorado is just outside as the 11th worst. So that leaves the list of competing teams as Boston, Texas, Pitt, Cleveland, Chicago, and the Dodgers. Are Cleveland, Boston or Texas going to give up multiple top 25 players for him? That's dubious. If pit ever made any moves I might peg them as a front runner but they are never in on big names. If Houston didn't start off so god awful terrible they would also seem intriguing and perhaps they could get involved with an eye toward 2017.

That's why I just don't see Teheran bringing back a treasure trove of guys. So while I can certainly see why in a vacuum Williams McKinney and Candelario doesn't seem like enough, realistically who's throwing down more than that and not only more but more in areas the Braves want? Would you give up two top 25 players for him?
 

beckdawg

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Another similar name in trade I also thought of was Wade Miley. He brought back Raymel Flores, Rubby De La Rosa and Allen Webster to AZ. He was 2 years old but had a similar ERA and had 4 years of control left when traded to Boston.
 

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I don't want to jinks the kid, but Alcantara seems to have raised his game after starting slow. I saw this over at the Cubs Den today-
.272/.341/.491 with 5 HRs
This is why no one should be eager to give up on Arismendy Alcantara. He was not retired in 6 plate appearances, with the highlight being a 3 run HR as part of a 3 hit, 3 walk, 3 run, 3 RBI night. He added his 11th SB in 11 attempts just for good measure.
 

beckdawg

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I don't want to jinks the kid, but Alcantara seems to have raised his game after starting slow. I saw this over at the Cubs Den today-
.272/.341/.491 with 5 HRs

I was going to comment on this but given my bias toward him Alcantara I decided not to. He is playing really well right now. My one worry though is his K rate is still really high. I'm hoping he can get that under control
 

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Gerardo Concepcion has pitched ~22 innings scoreless this season. This interests me because once upon a time he was kind of a big deal. Back when the cubs were signing Soler they also signed him to a 5 year $6 mil deals as a 19 year old out of cuba. He hadn't been particularly good until 2014 when they moved him to the bullpen. In those 22 innings between AA/AAA he's had a 8.3 k/9 and a 2.49 bb/9. Those aren't eye popping numbers especially for a reliever but he is a lefty and given Richard has been rather uninspiring thus far he might be worth keeping an eye on.
 

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Gerardo Concepcion has pitched ~22 innings scoreless this season. This interests me because once upon a time he was kind of a big deal. Back when the cubs were signing Soler they also signed him to a 5 year $6 mil deals as a 19 year old out of cuba. He hadn't been particularly good until 2014 when they moved him to the bullpen. In those 22 innings between AA/AAA he's had a 8.3 k/9 and a 2.49 bb/9. Those aren't eye popping numbers especially for a reliever but he is a lefty and given Richard has been rather uninspiring thus far he might be worth keeping an eye on.

Is he even on the 40-man roster?
 

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