Cub's Prospect Watch And Development Discussion Thread

[Jntg4]

Yep. That is exactly what I had said.

Cheap and got outbid.

And that was your initial reaction when they gave an unproven prospect $42 million when it happened and before anyone knew how good he was, right?

 

[JosMin]

And that was your initial reaction when they gave an unproven prospect $42 million when it happened and before anyone knew how good he was, right?

Yeah, just like the Cubs epic fail on Yu Darvish because "WE GOT OUTBID ON THE POSTING FEE LOLOLOL." If anyone else thinks it's a great idea to bid upwards of $52 million JUST FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO NEGOTIATE WITH A GUY who's never thrown a single pitch in the majors, on top of a contract that ended up equaling $60 million... then I've got some beachfront property in Montana I want you to take a look at. The fact remains is that the posting system was changed in order to limit the risk on international prospects. As much as everyone wants the next Darvish or Ichiro, they're just as likely to land the next Hideki Irabu or Dice-K.

I love the double standards. The Cubs FO is an epic failure because they ended up bidding on Soler as opposed to Puig... even though Soler and Cespedes signed before Puig was even available. And the Cubs are cheap because they didn't keep jacking up their posting fee for a chance to negotiate with a guy. Would it be that big of an issue if Puig wouldn't have had a great rookie campaign? What about if Soler wouldn't have been injured and made his way to AAA last year? What if Darvish blows out his elbow on Opening Day and doesn't pitch again until after the All-Star break next year? Again, an avalanche of "What-if's?"

The fact remains is that most scouts though Puig was closer to the majors, but didn't have the ceiling of either Cespedes or Soler. As it stands now, that remains to be seen. Puig was exceptional last year. Cespedes has been up and down. The jury is still out on Soler.

 

[Boobaby1]

Yeah, just like the Cubs epic fail on Yu Darvish because "WE GOT OUTBID ON THE POSTING FEE LOLOLOL." If anyone else thinks it's a great idea to bid upwards of $52 million JUST FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO NEGOTIATE WITH A GUY who's never thrown a single pitch in the majors, on top of a contract that ended up equaling $60 million... then I've got some beachfront property in Montana I want you to take a look at. The fact remains is that the posting system was changed in order to limit the risk on international prospects. As much as everyone wants the next Darvish or Ichiro, they're just as likely to land the next Hideki Irabu or Dice-K.

I love the double standards. The Cubs FO is an epic failure because they ended up bidding on Soler as opposed to Puig... even though Soler and Cespedes signed before Puig was even available. And the Cubs are cheap because they didn't keep jacking up their posting fee for a chance to negotiate with a guy. Would it be that big of an issue if Puig wouldn't have had a great rookie campaign? What about if Soler wouldn't have been injured and made his way to AAA last year? What if Darvish blows out his elbow on Opening Day and doesn't pitch again until after the All-Star break next year? Again, an avalanche of "What-if's?"

The fact remains is that most scouts though Puig was closer to the majors, but didn't have the ceiling of either Cespedes or Soler. As it stands now, that remains to be seen. Puig was exceptional last year. Cespedes has been up and down. The jury is still out on Soler.

As good as a player as Puig was last year, I think the Dodgers might have a handful with this guy if he continues his on the field as well as off the field antics and not listening.

The Dodgers have a really good line-up, and one player with his ability can tear it up quickly.

 

[JosMin]

As good as a player as Puig was last year, I think the Dodgers might have a handful with this guy if he continues his on the field as well as off the field antics and not listening.

The Dodgers have a really good line-up, and one player with his ability can tear it up quickly.

There have already been multiple reports of him getting into scuffles with coaches and players, most notably Adrian Gonzalez. I know that's a big reason why he and Juan Uribe got close last year -- Uribe attempted the whole "take a guy under his wing" thing and the team wanted another player to get close with him in order to show in the ropes and assimilate himself with some of the American game customs that he may be unfamiliar with. A lot of young players have difficulty keeping their emotions in check and Puig was no exception last year. He's a tremendous player and I think the Dodgers have the fan culture and atmosphere to thrive there. The only real issue I could see developing is if the Dodgers slip up and his antics "become a distraction" because that's how the media wants to paint the picture. Although, the Dodgers were a train wreck before he got called up last year..... so who really knows?

 

[patg006]

And that was your initial reaction when they gave an unproven prospect $42 million when it happened and before anyone knew how good he was, right?

Yep.

Despite what you have been brainwashed into believing, cash is the most plentiful and easily replaced resource the Cubs have. A far cheaper resource than the 101 loss season and #2 overall pick that was used to on an unproven prospect named Kris Bryant. That is a massive cost no matter the difference in money. A completely wasted season is a cost even though it is not money.

Over the last three seasons the Cubs have given the Marlins about $15.5 for them to take Carlos Zambrano, are paying the Yankees $13M this year to let Soriano play for them and last year paid $5.5M for 15 innings from Scott Baker.

You and many others are totally on-board with moves thinking that is moving the Cubs in the 'right direction'.

That is $34M over three seasons for a 3-12 record and a 5.98 ERA.

That doesn't even start with the $46M given to Edwin Jackson or the $30M given to Soler who has yet to even reach AA or even the $20M to buy a parking lot across the street for the ballpark.

So yeah, $42M for an unproven prospect doesn't seem all that bad.

It wouldn't have cost them any precious draft picks either, just money which the Cubs have PLENTY of.

 

[patg006]

If anyone else thinks it's a great idea to bid upwards of $52 million JUST FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO NEGOTIATE WITH A GUY

Clearly you did not understand how the posting system used to work.

Had they not been able to come to a contract agreement with Darvish, they get to keep the $52 million.

Would it be that big of an issue if Puig wouldn't have had a great rookie campaign? What about if Soler wouldn't have been injured and made his way to AAA last year? What if Darvish blows out his elbow on Opening Day and doesn't pitch again until after the All-Star break next year? Again, an avalanche of "What-if's?"

Guess what? None of that actually happened. The only what's if's being provided are a bunch of what if's on things that never happened.

Yet you have no problems providing an avalanche of what if's about most of the top prospects in the Cubs organization making All Star Games.

I love that double standard.

 

[patg006]

There have already been multiple reports of him getting into scuffles with coaches and players, most notably Adrian Gonzalez.

At least there havent been reports of him being investigated for sexual assault like Starlin Castro already has had or how nobody has an issues with his clear lack of focus while playing.

I love the double standards.

 

[CSF77]

LOS ANGELES -- One day reliever J.P. Howell is reading a book written by his wife to preschoolers, and the next day he's drawn into the national discussion over bullying.

"Dude, I don't know how it happened," said Howell, who said an interview he gave while making a Thursday appearance has spun out of control.

In the interview with the Los Angeles Times, it was written that Howell said he saw teammate Yasiel Puig bullied in the Dodgers' clubhouse. On Friday, Howell insisted that's not what he said.

"Not in the clubhouse, never by teammates," he said. "I was asked if Puig had been bullied and I said yes, but I meant by fans and media and people on the outside that don't know him. Never in the clubhouse. Are you kidding? People early in the season said our clubhouse wouldn't have chemistry, and it turned out to be an awesome clubhouse -- everybody got along."

Howell, now a free agent, said the misunderstanding of his comments has been magnified because of bad timing, as the topic has been in the national spotlight in the wake of the Miami Dolphins incident.

The interview triggered additional media coverage, and the Dodgers responded by issuing this statement:

"Bullying is an issue we take very seriously. We've discussed this with Yasiel and he has assured us that he is comfortable with the clubhouse environment as well as his teammates, coaches and support staff. As an organization, we will continue to be proactive in monitoring what goes on in and around our clubhouse."

Said Howell: "When I was asked about Puig, I just wanted to use him as an example that not only preschoolers get bullied. It's a problem in our society, and I just wanted the kids to know not to stay silent, that it's wrong and you should say something, and it can happen to anybody at any age. It happened to me."

If anything good comes from the mini-drama, Howell said, it would be an increasing awareness of the program he and his wife, Heather, are undertaking, with more information available on discoveryourpath.com. Heather wrote the children's book "Dangles," a lesson of friendship taught by a stuffed monkey and inspired by a gift J.P. gave to Heather.

"What we're trying to do with Discover Your Path is help kids find their way," said Howell. "In L.A., there are tough places. This just shines a light on a problem that a lot of kids have trouble dealing with. I don't know how this all got twisted, and it's too bad it got spun like that."

Ken Gurnick is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb...md=20131115&content_id=63957514&vkey=news_mlb

 

[JosMin]

At least there havent been reports of him being investigated for sexual assault like Starlin Castro already has had or how nobody has an issues with his clear lack of focus while playing.

I love the double standards.

Really? Is that why Puig got benched last year for "a lack of effort and focus"?

http://www.truebluela.com/2013/8/28/4668910/yasiel-puig-benched-don-mattingly-dodgers

And is that they Castro was never formally charged with assault and was acquitted of all charges?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ssault-allegations-starlin-castro-prosecutors

 

[JosMin]

Clearly you did not understand how the posting system used to work.

Had they not been able to come to a contract agreement with Darvish, they get to keep the $52 million.

I'm fully aware of that. The fact remains that the combined $112 million between salary and posting fee to net Darvish looks like a steal right now because he's playing at an All-Star level. He's the exception to the rule. For every Yu Darvish, Ichiro, and Hideki Matsui, there's a Kaz Matsui, Hideki Irabu, Dice-K, Fukudume, etc. We both know it goes both ways. And that's a lot of money to potentially tie up to simply negotiate with a guy. The new posting process protects teams from this.

Guess what? None of that actually happened. The only what's if's being provided are a bunch of what if's on things that never happened.

Uh, that's what a "What if" is.... a hypothetical situation. Just like you throw out the daily "What if the Cubs blew their wad in free agency?," some of us choose to say, "What if a majority of the Cubs' prospects play near or exceed their potential?"

Yet you have no problems providing an avalanche of what if's about most of the top prospects in the Cubs organization making All Star Games.

I love that double standard.

And just like I've praised Bryant, Alcantara, Baez, etc., I've also been extremely cautious of Hendricks, Soler, Edwards, etc..... Selective memory at its finest.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm fully aware of that. The fact remains that the combined $112 million between salary and posting fee to net Darvish looks like a steal right now because he's playing at an All-Star level. He's the exception to the rule. For every Yu Darvish, Ichiro, and Hideki Matsui, there's a Kaz Matsui, Hideki Irabu, Dice-K, Fukudume, etc. We both know it goes both ways. And that's a lot of money to potentially tie up to simply negotiate with a guy. The new posting process protects teams from this.




Uh, that's what a "What if" is.... a hypothetical situation. Just like you throw out the daily "What if the Cubs blew their wad in free agency?," some of us choose to say, "What if a majority of the Cubs' prospects play near or exceed their potential?"



And just like I've praised Bryant, Alcantara, Baez, etc., I've also been extremely cautious of Hendricks, Soler, Edwards, etc..... Selective memory at its finest.

Kei Igawa

 

[JosMin]

Kei Igawa

CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[patg006]

Really? Is that why Puig got benched last year for "a lack of effort and focus"?

http://www.truebluela.com/2013/8/28/4668910/yasiel-puig-benched-don-mattingly-dodgers

I never said Puig hadnt been benched for a lack of effort and focus, I said nobody has an issue with Castro doing it.

Nice try strawman.

And is that they Castro was never formally charged with assault and was acquitted of all charges?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ssault-allegations-starlin-castro-prosecutors

I never said he was formally charged.

I said he was investigated for it.

Yet again you are complaining about something that was never said. Maybe someday you will respond accurately to a statement that was made.

 

[patg006]

I'm fully aware of that. The fact remains that the combined $112 million between salary and posting fee to net Darvish looks like a steal right now because he's playing at an All-Star level. He's the exception to the rule. For every Yu Darvish, Ichiro, and Hideki Matsui, there's a Kaz Matsui, Hideki Irabu, Dice-K, Fukudume, etc. We both know it goes both ways. And that's a lot of money to potentially tie up to simply negotiate with a guy. The new posting process protects teams from this.

No money was spent unless the player gets signed to a contract, so no money would have been 'tied up'.

Yes it goes both ways, but many of the players you listed as 'busts' didn't get close to the money that Darvish got.

Kaz Matsui was a 3 year / $20M deal. Matsui in 2004 was the 6th highest paid Met, barely ahead of Steve Trachsel

Irabu was 4 years for $12.8M and was the 9th highest paid player on the Yankees in 1998.

Dice K had one good season and Fukudome never lived up to expectations.

But the success rate on the Japanese players has been far greater than the success rate of even the precious Top 100 prospects.

Uh, that's what a "What if" is.... a hypothetical situation. Just like you throw out the daily "What if the Cubs blew their wad in free agency?," some of us choose to say, "What if a majority of the Cubs' prospects play near or exceed their potential?"

Awesome, so hypothetical situations based on past events that are facts?

Great logic there.

And just like I've praised Bryant, Alcantara, Baez, etc., I've also been extremely cautious of Hendricks, Soler, Edwards, etc..... Selective memory at its finest.

Not selective memory.

The Cubs have about 4 maybe 5 top prospects. You predicted three of them would make All Star Games. 3 is most of 4 or 5.

 

[theberserkfury]

I never said Puig hadnt been benched for a lack of effort and focus, I said nobody has an issue with Castro doing it.

Nice try strawman.

Speaking of strawman... is there anyone here who doesn't have an issue with Castro's multiple lapses in focus?

 

[Jntg4]

Yeah, just like the Cubs epic fail on Yu Darvish because "WE GOT OUTBID ON THE POSTING FEE LOLOLOL." If anyone else thinks it's a great idea to bid upwards of $52 million JUST FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO NEGOTIATE WITH A GUY who's never thrown a single pitch in the majors, on top of a contract that ended up equaling $60 million... then I've got some beachfront property in Montana I want you to take a look at. The fact remains is that the posting system was changed in order to limit the risk on international prospects. As much as everyone wants the next Darvish or Ichiro, they're just as likely to land the next Hideki Irabu or Dice-K.

I love the double standards. The Cubs FO is an epic failure because they ended up bidding on Soler as opposed to Puig... even though Soler and Cespedes signed before Puig was even available. And the Cubs are cheap because they didn't keep jacking up their posting fee for a chance to negotiate with a guy. Would it be that big of an issue if Puig wouldn't have had a great rookie campaign? What about if Soler wouldn't have been injured and made his way to AAA last year? What if Darvish blows out his elbow on Opening Day and doesn't pitch again until after the All-Star break next year? Again, an avalanche of "What-if's?"

The fact remains is that most scouts though Puig was closer to the majors, but didn't have the ceiling of either Cespedes or Soler. As it stands now, that remains to be seen. Puig was exceptional last year. Cespedes has been up and down. The jury is still out on Soler.

Plus posting fees are (or were at the time anyway) blind bids. (P.S. Did that change this offseason? I forget)

 

[CSF77]

I think the Cubs bid in the 20 mil range for Darvish. There was no way a bid under 40 mil should have been made. Blind or not. That was just a hey we are trying showing.

Now they bid 120 mil on Tanaka. That was the first time that they stepped up on a big fish.

Soler was a long term investment. If they went after Cespedes then he would have been a big move. Spending 30 mil on a A ball player makes little sense when the draft can provide that type.

When Oakland won on Cespedes I felt that Theo was scared of spending on the major league roster.

It comes down to ownership in the end. If the Ricketts family wanted a winner now then they would have made legit offers to get quality on the team. Instead they went with the slow cooker method which is more profitable.

 

[Jntg4]

I think the Cubs bid in the 20 mil range for Darvish. There was no way a bid under 40 mil should have been made. Blind or not. That was just a hey we are trying showing.

Now they bid 120 mil on Tanaka. That was the first time that they stepped up on a big fish.

Soler was a long term investment. If they went after Cespedes then he would have been a big move. Spending 30 mil on a A ball player makes little sense when the draft can provide that type.

When Oakland won on Cespedes I felt that Theo was scared of spending on the major league roster.

It comes down to ownership in the end. If the Ricketts family wanted a winner now then they would have made legit offers to get quality on the team. Instead they went with the slow cooker method which is more profitable.

IIRC only one team did not bid well under 40 million, or 30 or 25 million for that matter, and we finished 2nd or 3rd in the Darvish bidding depending on who you believe... I'm not sure I'd blame them for bidding under 40 fwiw.

 

[CSF77]

IIRC only one team did not bid well under 40 million, or 30 or 25 million for that matter, and we finished 2nd or 3rd in the Darvish bidding depending on who you believe... I'm not sure I'd blame them for bidding under 40 fwiw.

Their bid was around 25 mil from what I heard. Theo won the DiceK bid with a 50 mil bid. Darvish was going to get that fee also as a big name ticket.


Ask your self this:

If Theo was still with the Bo-Sox and made a bid would it have been a 25 mil bid or a 50 mil bid?

 

[SilenceS]

Their bid was around 25 mil from what I heard. Theo won the DiceK bid with a 50 mil bid. Darvish was going to get that fee also as a big name ticket.


Ask your self this:

If Theo was still with the Bo-Sox and made a bid would it have been a 25 mil bid or a 50 mil bid?

I would be inclined to think it would have been more. Theo def. has a budget that Ricketts and his staff set. I think he came out and said last year that the payroll was maxed out. Thats on Ricketts.