Cub's Prospect Watch And Development Discussion Thread

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beckdawg

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Really? So when does AA performance compare to MLB performance?

How many times did I say if he is what he appears to be? I'm sure it was at least 3. And how many times before that did I say I would move Castro to 2B to compete with him? In other words, you see if that AA performance is MLB performance. The entire point of everything I said is if you move Baez to 2B Alcantara is essentially going to be traded because there's no where for him to play. They aren't going to move him to the outfield and even if they did it's entirely possible he'll be blocked by Almora and Bryant.
 

CSF77

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How many times did I say if he is what he appears to be? I'm sure it was at least 3. And how many times before that did I say I would move Castro to 2B to compete with him? In other words, you see if that AA performance is MLB performance. The entire point of everything I said is if you move Baez to 2B Alcantara is essentially going to be traded because there's no where for him to play. They aren't going to move him to the outfield and even if they did it's entirely possible he'll be blocked by Almora and Bryant.

It is not about him. It has more to do with the quality of pitching he is facing.
 

CSF77

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Here is my hope:

Opening day:
1: Bon 2B
2: Castro SS
3: Rizzo 1B
4: Olt 3B
5: Schierholtz RF
6: Ruggiano LF
7: Lake CF
8: Castillo C

All star game 2014
1: Bon CF
2: Castro SS
3: Rizzo 1B
4: Olt 3B
5: Baez 2B
6: Schierholtz RF
7: Ruggiano LF
8: Castillo C

Opening day 2015:

1: Bon CF
2: Castro SS
3: Rizzo 1B
4: Baez 2B
5: Bryant LF
6: Schierholtz RF
7: Olt 3B
8: Castillo C

If Alcantara plays his ass off I would move him to CF over Bon but if Bon kicks ass this year I would keep him.

Regardless these kids have to earn their spots vs being handed to them. If we "know" what production to expect and they are not going to pay over value on future contracts then it makes sense to keep some "stability" in the line up while some unknown factors are adjusting.
 

SilenceS

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Yea, people are getting nuts with this whole trade Castro. The guy only started to regress when Sveum got his hands on him. He is still considered by a lot of scouts to have some of the best hand to eye coordination in the league. Castro could easily be a .300 hitter again in the major leagues. Alcantara hasnt even hit that in the minors. The only reason I am hearing Baez at second is because he feels more comfortable there. He said he would prefer second over third.

None of these prospects appear to be anything until they come up to the majors and do it. I dont think Theo and them are willing to let the caliber type player Castro is over hoping a prospect can pick up his production. One bad year does not make a player. The year before his line was comparable to Jimmy Rollins in 2007. Cubs broadcaster have even brought up how Castro is going back to see ball, hit ball. The whole taking pitches for the sake of taking pitches was dumb. That is also the reaon they dont believe Kris Bryant will be a high average guy because he takes to many pitches. He waits for the perfect pitch and will let hittable pitches go. Baez is similar to Castro with see ball, hit ball. Not everybody is going to have an incredible OBP. But, I will take my chances with a proven two time all star and .300 hitter over hoping Alcantara can pick up the slack without proven it.

I know we are excited about some of our prospects but fans get disenchanted with the old ones. Rizzo was the hot thing and now no one could care about him. Baseball is a patient game. The problem is we dont live in a patient world anymore. Everybody wants there cake and they want it now!
 

beckdawg

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It is not about him. It has more to do with the quality of pitching he is facing.

Who we talking about here? Alcantara? And if so, my point on why he will be a better overall offensive player has more to do with his walk total. He walked around 11% at AA. Frankly it was odd because that was by far the highest of his minor league career when you would expect a hitter to struggle more as the leap from A to AA is fairly significant. I'll admit it could be an outlier but if he continues at that pace as a .260-270 hitter he's been the majority of his minor league career he's going to be a .350 OBP type who's a switch hitter and can steal 30 bags. The reason that walk rate is so important is Castro's peak in the majors is around 5% less than what Alcantara did last season which gives Alcantara a 30 point head start in OBP over 600 PAs. And as I've said before OBP is huge as it's a direct correlation to runs. Also, while Castro isn't making big bank, if they end up comparable offensively Castro's going to be making $6, $7, $9, and $10 mil from 2015-2019 when Alcantara would be in pre-arbitration 3 years and arbitration 1 the 4th. That's $32 mil over 4 years that they could be using else where.

I just see 0 downsides in moving Castro to 2B if Baez can field the position of SS. Last year Baez had what something like 40 errors at SS? Hypothetically let's say he improves and gets that down to 30 this year. What's the downside to playing him at SS even if he's still a little raw? Castro's first season at the MLB level he had 27 in 123 games and had 29 the second season. The 2015 cubs are probably more a team you hope to win 80 games rather than a legit playoff team. So, he can grow into the position at the MLB level. Don't get me wrong, if he can't play the position then he can't play the position. But if they think over time he has the tools to stay there but is still a little raw so what? Castro's first 2 seasons he was a little raw. Hell you could argue he's still a little raw.

And by moving Castro to 2B you're probably making him a better fielder for the cubs as it's less challenging. At that point you make Alcantara take the job from him. I'm not saying you just give Alcantara 2B without proving himself. However, if Baez is at 2B he never is going to get the chance to prove himself because the cubs are going to want to give Baez as many AB's as possible to evaluate him and playing Alcantara at SS in a battle with Castro is probably not ideal since they moved him off the position in the first place. But even if they did that, if Alcantara turns out to be the better hitter you're then flipping Baez and Alcantara around because 2B is the better position for Alcantara.

To me it just seems so much more simple to move Castro once rather than screwing around with both Baez and Alcantara in order to evaluate them. We don't even know if Alcantara can play CF. As far as I can tell he's never once played any games in the OF in the minors. It took Soriano 4-5 years in LF before he wasn't a liability. So again, why make this so difficult? Baez has spent all, as far as I can tell, of his minor league career at SS. Alcantara spent the majority of his early years at SS and they moved him to 2B both to accommodate Baez but also because he was a better defender there. Moving Castro to 2B probably makes him a better defender too. If Alcantara is shit in the majors then fine. Castro's a decent 2B. If Alcantara's better, you have Castro who now has experience at 2B and SS which makes him more valuable as a trade piece. You'll also have given yourself a look to see if Baez is improving at SS before you would need to make any call on trading Castro.

Again, where's the downside?
 

beckdawg

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I know we are excited about some of our prospects but fans get disenchanted with the old ones. Rizzo was the hot thing and now no one could care about him. Baseball is a patient game. The problem is we dont live in a patient world anymore. Everybody wants there cake and they want it now!

It's not about Castro being a shit player. It's about logistics. If Baez is the every day 2B Alcantara is immediately blocked in the system. And moving him to the OF is frankly a pipe dream. Let's be real here, Baez given his clout as a top 10 prospect isn't going anywhere for the next 4 years and no player in the cubs system is going to take ABs from him. Castro is not an immovable player. So, you want Alcantara fighting him for a job not fighting Baez. It's really that simple. Moving Castro to 2B costs them nothing and gives Alcantara someone who he could have a legit shot at winning a job vs. If Alcantara is shit, fine then you have Castro at 2B. Where's the harm?
 

SilenceS

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It's not about Castro being a shit player. It's about logistics. If Baez is the every day 2B Alcantara is immediately blocked in the system. And moving him to the OF is frankly a pipe dream. Let's be real here, Baez given his clout as a top 10 prospect isn't going anywhere for the next 4 years and no player in the cubs system is going to take ABs from him. Castro is not an immovable player. So, you want Alcantara fighting him for a job not fighting Baez. It's really that simple. Moving Castro to 2B costs them nothing and gives Alcantara someone who he could have a legit shot at winning a job vs. If Alcantara is shit, fine then you have Castro at 2B. Where's the harm?

Castro was untradeable until last year. I have no problem having this problem if it ever comes to that. I just would bet my money on a proven young Castro over an unproven young player who's ceiling is like Castro's.

Also, I like Alcantara as a prospect but his stats are a little misleading. He had a great first half to the season. The second half he started striking out more and didnt hit as well. What he has going for him is his surprising pop for his size and speed. I read he wasnt a very good SS so thats why he moved to second. That and Baez of course.
 

beckdawg

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Castro was untradeable until last year. I have no problem having this problem if it ever comes to that. I just would bet my money on a proven young Castro over an unproven young player who's ceiling is like Castro's.

Also, I like Alcantara as a prospect but his stats are a little misleading. He had a great first half to the season. The second half he started striking out more and didnt hit as well. What he has going for him is his surprising pop for his size and speed. I read he wasnt a very good SS so thats why he moved to second. That and Baez of course.

Again, I'm not saying hand the job to Alcantara. I'm fine with him and Castro competing for a job with the team trading the loser. My issue is the cubs aren't going to trade Baez. They will give him the chance and he'll either succeed or he wont and by the time you know that Alcantara will be past his prospect years. Alcantara tearing up AAA isn't going to stop them from playing Baez in the majors. On the other hand, if you move Castro to 2B and Alcantara is tearing it up they might play him over Castro at 2B and he'll have a shot to win the job. He has 0 shot to win the 2B over Baez which makes him entirely expendable despite how good he may or may not be.
 

CSF77

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The reason that walk rate is so important is Castro's peak in the majors is around 5% less than what Alcantara did last season which gives Alcantara a 30 point head start in OBP over 600 PAs. And as I've said before OBP is huge as it's a direct correlation to runs. Also, while Castro isn't making big bank, if they end up comparable offensively Castro's going to be making $6, $7, $9, and $10 mil from 2015-2019 when Alcantara would be in pre-arbitration 3 years and arbitration 1 the 4th. That's $32 mil over 4 years that they could be using else where.

I'll agree with the walk rate. but we are talking about a player who has 200 hits at the major league level vs AA production. Sure we can try to project but there are too many factors to conciser here. The fact is Castro has produced at the major league level. You do not trade away production 1-2 years in advance of a potential replacement.

The thing is if Castro walks at a 5% but hits .290 it is still better than a rookie struggling at .230 with a 14% walk rate. That is Valbuena vs Castro projections.

Now if Alcantara hits .300 in Iowa this year then he should play himself into a spot. But most likely into CF. Again Castro is proven production and Almora would not be ready by then.

Players need to be pushed out by better production. Not moved just because some guy projects something in AA. On top of that AA pitch is is no where as good. It is not even comparable.
 

beckdawg

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You do not trade away production 1-2 years in advance of a potential replacement.

I'm not saying they should trade Castro today. What I'm saying is if you push Castro to 2B and play Baez at SS you then have the option for Alcantara to beat out Castro where you wont have that option with Baez at 2B. I think Alcantara eventually will be the better offensive player but I still think you make him earn the 2B job from Castro. My problem again is it doesn't matter what Alcantara does he can't win the job vs Baez because Baez will be given 4-5 years to fail before they give up on him. And you're not going to let Alcantara languish in AAA for 4 years. You'll trade him to get something for today if he's performing.

I just struggle to see where they are going to find ABs in the majors for Alcantara if 2B is where Baez ends up long term because you're going to want Baez taking as many as possible. If they were an AL team they could DH him but obviously they aren't. You'd basically have to play Baez at SS on off days for Castro and Alcantara at 2B and if you're going to do that then why not just play Baez at SS full time? I find it really dubious that they would throw Alcantara in the outfield to get ABs and with Olt, Villanueva, Bryant and others at 3B that seems packed too. And again I'm not saying Alcantara is better than Castro. I'm saying I think he could be but how do you know unless he gets those MLB ABs and where's he going to get them?
 

CSF77

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All I'm getting is you do not Starlin and can not wait for him to be off of the team.

Your reasoning goes against what has been put out by the Cubs. On top of that Castro is a better defender than Baez at SS.

So just seeing agenda here.
 

CSF77

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A better question here is who is in the lead for the 5th rotation spot. I'm seeing a dark horse move with Hendricks. Arreta is still slowed and has seen no action.
 

beckdawg

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All I'm getting is you do not Starlin and can not wait for him to be off of the team.

Well then I'm not sure what to tell you because I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on this. It has nothing to do with me liking Castro. He's fine. I think he's an above average player who can start on probably two thirds of the teams in the league at SS. I think he's some where between the 2012 and 2011 versions of himself. However, he's not Baez and few are. Moving Baez to second has ripple effect on other players so before you do it you have to consider those players. In fact part of the reason I would move Castro if Alcantara is the player he looks to be is because he has more trade value than Alcantara if he gets blocked by Baez. Alcantara is a 2B and Castro as I said before could start at SS for 2/3 of the teams in the league. However, if Baez is what he appears to be he's a better SS than Castro flat out.

Simply put, Castro at 2B gives you options you don't have with him at SS and I don't like limiting your options because he is "proven." He's the same exact hitter at 2B that he is at SS. If he's better than Alcantara he'll stay there. If he's not, you have a better offensive player to plug in. If Baez is at 2B, that scenario doesn't exist. I'm in favor of giving yourself every possible option to get better offensively. Maybe Alcantara is better than Castro and maybe not but I'm seen no way we find out either way if Baez is playing 2B.
 

CSF77

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Amazing.

Let's see: Baez 44 errors. Castro 20 errors. Ok.

Baez: I like 2B. (He gets that he will have to move)

Alcantara: how much P/T did he get this spring? Oh not much. Humm...
 

theberserkfury

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Well then I'm not sure what to tell you because I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on this.

Yeah, I think you're being pretty clear and I think it's an interesting point... but it doesn't seem like it'll be worth continuing to try to explain to CFS... he doesn't appear to be interested.
 

beckdawg

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Amazing.

Let's see: Baez 44 errors. Castro 20 errors. Ok.

Baez: I like 2B. (He gets that he will have to move)

Alcantara: how much P/T did he get this spring? Oh not much. Humm...

Why are you being so combative about this? If you don't agree with my opinion whatever but are you trying to be a dick about it? Even if Baez does move there it doesn't make my point any less valid. Choosing to play Baez at 2B blocks a top 100 prospect who's in AAA. You're suggesting Alcantara will be a CF. Then he blocks Almora from seeing MLB at bats a year later. And on top of that, if Baez is so terrible at SS what's Alcantara going to be in CF? He's never played there in his entire minor league career. As such, I think it's entirely a pipe dream. And if I'm right, someone has to go and that someone is Alcantara or Castro.
 

CSF77

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The problem is you are anointing prospects with starting gig at 2B due to what a few experts not affiliated with the goings on with in the Cubs organization.

Castro pulled a hammy. Baez got a good look. Alcantara got some PR time. Bonn got the big look at 2B. Olt played himself into 3B as long as his shoulder is good. Rugg is making an argument about full time LF. An article on the Cubs site was written on Schierholtz hitting LH pitching well earlier in his career. Ie for shadowing.

Dude Baez is not losing any value by moving to 2B. He even said he prefers 2B over 3B. The fact that Olt is hitting also it makes is a preferred situation to be in.

I expect lake to get CF at min against LH pitching. They have played him up some and I expect the lion share in Apr. Bonn I expect to lead off at 2B. Barney is getting playing time cut. Dale as a IF coach over valued his D even though he was a vacuum at the plate.

Now looking forward. If it wasn't for the super 2 issue, we are talking about the Ricketts here, he would be up early. But just like Rizzo, they will milk it. I expect June 15 promote.

Now Alcantara. Sure he is ranked by outside evaluators as a top 100. That is fine but I look at what the Cubs do. Not what people who are paid to have an opinion. He got few ab's and was not mentioned on the Cubs voice box articles. Not even as a after thought. All they talk about are the big 4. Not the big 7.

So looking at it from that point of view your are judging him based off of what ever opinion is out there. Not by what has been done by the Cubs or by what he did in spring training. He got the same opertunites that Almora got who is projected at Daytona. 2 levels below Alcantara. Now think of that for a second. Alcantara who will be a phone call away did not get playing time. A bunch of non roster invites got it instead.


Now sure I am a dick. From what I see I'm just being honest here
 

beckdawg

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The problem is you are anointing prospects with starting gig at 2B due to what a few experts not affiliated with the goings on with in the Cubs organization.

How am I anointing anyone? I literally said, you move Castro to 2B when Baez is ready and make Alcantara beat him out. As for Alcantara being an after thought, in the very podcast that spun this line of discussion Parks quoted cubs head of scouting McLeod as having compared Alcantara to Jose Reyes light. If you don't want to believe in him fine. But that's someone from the cubs organization making that comparison. I have no idea if he'll be able to do what he did in AA in the majors but I at least what to see if he can. And I see no way that happens if Baez goes to 2B full time because that's the position Alcantara fits best into defensively.
 

CSF77

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Again this goes back to Baez committing 44 errors last year vs 20 that Castro made. I'm not quite getting that one.

Even so Alcantara needs to prove that he can perform at AAA. We have seen Brett Jackson (evaluated higher). Flop on that step. Logan Watkins won top minor league hitter at AA. AAA flop. Got booted back down.

Now sure if Alcantara goes to Iowa and rakes he will create his own opertunites. But I wouldn't anoint him squat. Shoot Bryant got more of a look see and he never played at AA yet.

For Castro to get moved off: first Baez would have to offer a "better glove". Not a better package. For Alcantara to get 2B at that point Baez would have to be better at SS "or" a team was willing to give up a top 10 pitching prospect in return.

That is the biggest hold up here. Baez made 44 errors last year. That is not a small number. Moving him to 2B alone reduces that number. Now Castro started out in the 30's and improved to the 20's but that was after a few years.

Even so Castro is under a 60 mil contract. Theo already is committed to him when he did not need to be and with Baez in the pipeline. The talk for awhile has been Baez to 3B. Now with Baez saying he prefers 2B over 3B Ya he said it not "Parks" and Olt emerging this spring the signs are pointing at Baez at 2B.

This spring Rentrera has been focused on the upcoming season. And as a side note he is growing on me now. Getting to like the teddy bear. We have seen a bunch of "who the f. Is that player". Ie potential depth. Some of the big 4 getting some play.

Now on the AAA's. Vil got playing time due to Olt's shoulder. 2B has mostly been Barney Bonn and 2-3 non rosters getting playing time.

Again part of the upcoming season evaluations. Baez got a ton of time. Again up coming season eval. Ie they are planning to promote him. What time did Al get? Not much. Did they rush him last year like they did with Baez and Bryant? No he played the full season at Tenn. he will go to Iowa with Logan Morrison already there. Something will have to give there.

It will be dictated on performance. Not on rankings.
 

SilenceS

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Baez will never play short. Just my opinion. He started playing short as a Senior in High school. Its not liek he has been there his whole life. Baez bat projects anywhere.
 
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