Cub's Prospect Watch And Development Discussion Thread

[patg006]

are you for real or just really that stupid.... do you even read what written ?

this conversation over, someone else can have fun with your stupidity now..

Yeah I read what was written.

You said the Cubs offered him more money, despite the FACTS that it was $20M less than what the Brewers offered.

You then went into your usual fairy tale belief of if this and maybe that and blah, blah, blah clearly ignoring the reality that most of the world understands that sure things are usually better than ifs, and's and but's.

 

[CSF77]

He wanted a 3 year deal. He knew that was the most over all money he could make due to his age. The Cubs could have paid the 36 mil (13 mil on avg)

2011 They paid him 14,600,000 Payroll was at 134,004,000
2012 payroll dropped to 109,316,000 A 25 mil drop. (IE that was the true goal) But that year they added David Dejesus at 4,425,000 and Paul Maholm 4,250,000. Ian Stewart 2,237,500. 10,912,500 combined.

So in reality if they Did not trade for Rizzo and held onto Cashner. Traded for Wood. The rotation would be Shark, Cashner, Wood now. That makes the Jackson signing pointless...more cash pushed towards Rammy. etc. 1B would have been LaHair year 1 and who knows if he would have regressed all season. If so then sign the next year a vet for the 5.5 mil wasted on Baker (again Cash on the team)

It could have been done but they wanted to make their stamp on the team.


They made a choice. If it works out in the end that is fine. But they had another choice. That is to retain and stay competitive and let Baez develop. Rammy would be on year 3 this year and Baez would become the Heir.

 

[Jntg4]

$16M is more than $36M????

LOL!!!!!!

16M for 1 year + Another potential free agent contract signed AFTER that (e.g. covering the other two years, or even more) very well could have been.

 

[CSF77]

16M for 1 year + Another potential free agent contract signed AFTER that (e.g. covering the other two years, or even more) very well could have been.

He opted out first to get a 3 year deal as a F/A. It gave him the most leverage. Waiting a year would decrease his over all.

Theo tossed the offer to get a pick He had no intention of giving him a 3 year deal. Even though he had Vitter and his shitty glove and nothing.

The bottom line is if your best option is trading for shitty Stewy then you are doing something wrong.

 

[chibears55]

Yeah I read what was written.

You said the Cubs offered him more money, despite the FACTS that it was $20M less than what the Brewers offered.

wrong dumbass.. I said he could've taken the 16 mil for 2012 which was more then the 12 mil for 2012 he received from the brewers..
2013 and 2014 could or could not of been worked out after that, but he would of made an extra 4 MIL for 2012
he had no idea what teams were going to offer him yet when he turned down the Q offer..

again read much ???
you try to hard to be like your buddy, maybe you ought to give him a call and brush up a bit more on how to be a better ASSCLOWN of a message board.

You then went into your usual fairy tale belief of if this and maybe that and blah, blah, blah clearly ignoring the reality that most of the world understands that sure things are usually better than ifs, and's and but's.

saying they may or may not of offered an extension isn't exactly an IF AND or BUT situation but OK...

you guaranteeing that ARAM would've taken more more had the cubs offered it.. that not exactly a sure thing is it ? or when you say this and that FA would've signed with the Cubs.. is that a sure thing ?


so, quit trying so hard to be right on a topic cause your making yourself look dumber with every post...

 

[CSF77]

wrong dumbass.. I said he could've taken the 16 mil for 2012 which was more then the 12 mil for 2012 he received from the brewers..
2013 and 2014 could or could not of been worked out after that, but he would of made an extra 4 MIL for 2012
he had no idea what teams were going to offer him yet when he turned down the Q offer..

again read much ???
you try to hard to be like your buddy, maybe you ought to give him a call and brush up a bit more on how to be a better ASSCLOWN of a message board.





saying they may or may not of offered an extension isn't exactly an IF AND or BUT situation but OK...

you guaranteeing that ARAM would've taken more more had the cubs offered it.. that not exactly a sure thing is it ? or when you say this and that FA would've signed with the Cubs.. is that a sure thing ?


so, quit trying so hard to be right on a topic cause your making yourself look dumber with every post...

Due after 34 you take a multi year over a 1 year every time. You never know if an injury is the last one as his recovery is at a lower %. Not to mention 35 is the drop off age for production. He made a bussness decision and the Cubs made one also. They were not willing to gamble on a 35 yo...as they were not willing to retain Dempster either.

 

[chibears55]

Due after 34 you take a multi year over a 1 year every time. You never know if an injury is the last one as his recovery is at a lower %. Not to mention 35 is the drop off age for production. He made a bussness decision and the Cubs made one also. They were not willing to gamble on a 35 yo...as they were not willing to retain Dempster either.

I agree.. the cubs were in a rebuild mode and lowering payroll, ARAM wanted long term and did not want to be part of a rebuild...that what ive been saying all along

 

[patg006]

16M for 1 year + Another potential free agent contract signed AFTER that (e.g. covering the other two years, or even more) very well could have been.

If this

but that

maybe this

The FACTS are that $36M is more than $16M all day, everyday.

The Cubs offered $16M the Brewers offered $36M. The Cubs DID NOT offer him more money.

It is totally ignorant to argue otherwise.

 

[patg006]

ARAM wanted long term and did not want to be part of a rebuild...that what ive been saying all along

And yet he is right in the middle of a rebuild in Milwaukee.

Never let the facts interfere with your ignorance.

You are right about the long term though because despite your ignorant attempts to state otherwise, 3 years and $36M is more money than 1 year and $16M

 

[patg006]

first off he was offered more money..

No matter how you try and twist and cry and whine, you stupidly stated the Cubs offered him more money.

They didn't.

You were wrong.

The End.

Let's all move on.

 

[CSF77]

I agree.. the cubs were in a rebuild mode and lowering payroll, ARAM wanted long term and did not want to be part of a rebuild...that what ive been saying all along

As I posted. The Cubs did not need to play the rebuild card.

Signing A-Ram year 1 for 12 mil would have been equal to Maholm/DeJesus/Stewart's contracts. So no savings.

Retaining Cashner would have made signing Maholm pointless.
Retaining Colven in RF made signing DeJesus pointless.
Retaining A-ram make signing Stewart pointless.

So...

1B LaHair did put up ASG production. Was he long term; no but he gives cost reduction at 1B 'that year".

SP: Retaining Cashner: Puts the rotation in 2012: Dempster, Garza, (Z or Volstad: another argument all together), Shark, Wood, Cashner...lets see Wood started in AAA and Dempster traded Wood comes up...check. Works. Volstad cut check...No need to even go to Wells who was still in the fold. Even with Cash not being health at first the still have Wells as depth...

So Maholm signing was not needed.

Then 2013: They dump 52 mil into Jackson...uhm Cashner on team not needed. That cash could have been used towards upgs at 1B and RF. I fully expect Colvin and LaHair to bust regardless of their situations. Those solutions would be covered for the 13 mil per Jackson cost. Now Feldman was signed for 6 mil. I would have done that still. Baker not needed. 5.5 mil saved.

This year: We would be looking at Shark or Cash as a #1. Wood as a 3. They still could have added Arreta via Feldman. Hammel same situation.

Baez in AAA but moved to 3B in development. A-Ram off contract.


Every move Theo made was questionable. They wanted to input their guys. By no means would the team have been worse with A-ram on it and we would still have Baez up welling. They still could have spent on Soler (questionable). Almora and Bryant would not be on the team but there are always good players if scouting can ID them...see Mike Trout.

 

[chibears55]

As I posted. The Cubs did not need to play the rebuild card.

no but that was what they did....

Signing A-Ram year 1 for 12 mil would have been equal to Maholm/DeJesus/Stewart's contracts. So no savings.

they made him a qualifying offer for 16 MIL for 2012, so I guess they weren't planning on saving much in 2012..

Baez in AAA but moved to 3B in development. A-Ram off contract.

Baez was an 18 YO SS with just 10 minor league games under his belt after the 2011 season... don't think they quite figured he'd be that possible replacement for A-RAM then..


not knocking your thought process, but when they made their decisions after the 2011 season.. they couldn't jump ahead to 2014 and look back and say we could of done this or that, and this player gonna develop this way and so forth... sorry

 

[beckdawg]

Retaining Cashner would have made signing Maholm pointless.

2012 Cashner had a 4.27 ERA and pitching in wrigley likely would have made that far worse given his decently high HR/FB ratio in years prior to 2013. Also he pitched 46 innings. Maholm had a 3.67 ERA in 2012. To sit here today and say that having Cashner replaces the needs of pitching is entirely revisionist. There's no guarantee that Cashner would have pitched well for the cubs in 2012 and there's quite a bit of evidence to suggest Cashner's strong 2013 season is strongly influenced by pitching in San Diego in half his games.

 

[CSF77]

2012 Cashner had a 4.27 ERA and pitching in wrigley likely would have made that far worse given his decently high HR/FB ratio in years prior to 2013. Also he pitched 46 innings. Maholm had a 3.67 ERA in 2012. To sit here today and say that having Cashner replaces the needs of pitching is entirely revisionist. There's no guarantee that Cashner would have pitched well for the cubs in 2012 and there's quite a bit of evidence to suggest Cashner's strong 2013 season is strongly influenced by pitching in San Diego in half his games.

What I said was Theo made questionable moves at best. Or Jed in this case. Rizzo has not played as a top 10 1B. And Cashner is the Pads opening day starter.

Yes it is revisionist but I can do that because we have results to point at. And from what we saw goal 1 was reloading the farm. So signing Maholm was a trade chip buy as we saw from Feldman etc.

When Rizzo puts up a .250 BA and 30 HR's we can revisit this. Until then no they could have added a 1B via F/A POST LaHair flop. There have been plenty available.

So ya the goal was not winning. Winning means more pay roll demands and winning means smaller cash support for a rebuild.

 

[CSF77]

no but that was what they did....



they made him a qualifying offer for 16 MIL for 2012, so I guess they weren't planning on saving much in 2012..



Baez was an 18 YO SS with just 10 minor league games under his belt after the 2011 season... don't think they quite figured he'd be that possible replacement for A-RAM then..


not knocking your thought process, but when they made their decisions after the 2011 season.. they couldn't jump ahead to 2014 and look back and say we could of done this or that, and this player gonna develop this way and so forth... sorry

There has been talk about Baez at 3B for years now. Not really new news. And he was a 1st round pick. With plus bat speed. Not really a reach here.

And as I said their thought process was retool the team and use short term contract on the team and via F/A for trade goods.

It was intended as a over haul from the start. The team was made worse on purpose to be able to get a protect pick and more cash to spend. That is obvious.

So Rammy turns down a 16 mil option. Then Theo gives him a Arb offer. Think it was 14.1 not sure if that was in place then. Rammy already turned him down on that 1 year. So what are you thinking here? That offer was to get a pick. Not to sign him. That pick turned into Johnson. Who I like. But he is not Rammy who would have kept the team around .500 at least. Which did not jive with Theo's rebuild adjenda.

 

[Jntg4]

And yet he is right in the middle of a rebuild in Milwaukee.

Never let the facts interfere with your ignorance.

You are right about the long term though because despite your ignorant attempts to state otherwise, 3 years and $36M is more money than 1 year and $16M

I don't think Milwaukee was planning on rebuilding when they signed him, coming off a 96-66 season and a division title and all.

 

[chibears55]

I don't think Milwaukee was planning on rebuilding when they signed him, coming off a 96-66 season and a division title and all.

Be careful , dont let facts interfere with his ignorance....

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[The Bandit]

I don't think Milwaukee was planning on rebuilding when they signed him, coming off a 96-66 season and a division title and all.

Woops

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[SilenceS]

2012 Cashner had a 4.27 ERA and pitching in wrigley likely would have made that far worse given his decently high HR/FB ratio in years prior to 2013. Also he pitched 46 innings. Maholm had a 3.67 ERA in 2012. To sit here today and say that having Cashner replaces the needs of pitching is entirely revisionist. There's no guarantee that Cashner would have pitched well for the cubs in 2012 and there's quite a bit of evidence to suggest Cashner's strong 2013 season is strongly influenced by pitching in San Diego in half his games.

Would Rizzo hitting in one of the best hitters park not influenced him? Rizzo still had a bad year.

 

[SilenceS]

Ok, the Cubs have tanked on purpose since Theo arrived. Period. I dont know how anyone can argue that. He has mad bad moves but he also have strengthen with younger players. The Cubs didnt need to tank but they did based on budget. Ricketts made the decision. No one else. His budget made a lot of the decisions.