TL1961
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Do we really have to have this same discussion every ten days?
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Do we really have to have this same discussion every ten days?
Meatball
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I reword things because to leave out that detail ignores a critical fact. The rules of the game has drastically changed.
The new CBA has done numerous things that has dramatically changed the way that teams build farm systems. Theo Epstein in Boston would routinely let players walk under the old compensation system to net multiple first round picks. So to make up for the fact that Boston had low draft order they could supplement that bu getting several picks close together. For example that 2011 draft I mentioned Boston picked 4 times between the Cubs 1st round pick of Javier Baez and their second round pick Dan Vogelbach. The hard slotting system also prevents teams from doing things like the Cubs did in 06 which is the draft with Jeff Samardzija. The Cubs picked Tyler Colvin first and then due to signing multiple free agents didn't get to draft until the fifth round. The Cubs then managed to get Samardzija to sign by offering him more money then their entire draft pool this year to sign. Those are just two examples of how things have drastically changed.
So I will repeat give me a team that has rebuilt their farm system while competing at the major league level under these rules.
Meatball
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I repeat.......
Explain to me how the Cubs can't spend on free agency while building the farm at the same time.
What makes it impossible?
I'm not talking about getting more picks or higher picks.
What prevents them from spending money on quality players at the big league level while scouting and drafting talent for the farm?
Explain to me how the Cubs can't spend on free agency while building the farm at the same time.
What makes it impossible?
I'm not talking about getting more picks or higher picks.
What prevents them from spending money on quality players at the big league level while scouting and drafting talent for the farm?
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I just gave you examples of how the CBA prevents the methods that teams used to use effectively to build their farm systems while still signing free agents and going for it. The fact that you choose to ignore that fact doesn't change the realities there.
If it didn't change things than it ought to be easy to give me an example of this.
chibears55
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I thought salami was removed from here
Meatball
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No where in anything you wrote does it explain how it's impossible to spend and build on both levels at the same time.
No where.
Meatball
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chibears55
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Oh sorry is it pat ?
Irrelevant was his favorite word I believe
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So then give me an example of a team that has done it. You are making the case here that it can be done. Provide evidence that shows how teams can rebuild a farm system while still going for it. That is all I am asking for. I have provided far more to support my case so far than you have.
TL1961
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I'm contributing: If they spend $ on FA's to make the team better - but still not a contender - it not only is wasted $, but it also lowers the draft position, and can hurt their chances of getting impact players.
Additionally, as has been posted here countless times, the contract signed with Zell affects their ability to spend for a few more years.
So while it is easy to color Ricketts as cheap, it actually is not at all smart to spend $ on FA's up to this point. It will be smart to do so very soon, perhaps as early as next year, though they're still constrained by the purchase contract, so they can't just blow the vault wide open.
It is possible Ricketts never opens the vault and spends like we want him to, even when free to do so. I can't guarantee he will. And I am not touting him as a great owner.
But in fairness, not spending up until now is the smart move.
Meatball
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Great.
Care to show proof on how drafting higher has consistently been proven to provide teams with long term impact players that make it to the major league level?
Complete bullshit, but alright.
1, I don't think Ricketts is cheap. I think he wants to make improvements to the ballpark and surrounding area without affecting profit. Spend less on the players, spend on the ballpark, keep pocketing same or better profit.
2. How isn't it smart to spend on FA's? Care to look around at the current teams that would be considering contenders and then discuss what they have spent?
3. They aren't constrained at all. Anyone that believes that is a moron.
The only way this could be true is if the farm system completely pans out and produces a boat load of studs.
This is for one, unlikely to happen. History tells us that. And for two........you would need to predict the future to know this is a smart move. In which case I would like tomorrow's lotto numbers.
TL1961
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So you are saying there were free agents that could have made the 2012, 2013 and 2014 Cubs a contender?
The Cardinals and Pirates and Reds made the playoffs last year. Free Agent impact? Minimal.
Cards and Brewers this year. Free Agents? Matt Garza and his 4+ ERA and .500 record.
There's a few examples without getting out of our own division.
Again, I didn't say the Cubs should never spend on FA. I said it was smart up until now, as there weren't any who would make a difference on the teams of the past few years.
This is the point where you can use hindsight, and cherry pick which FA's could have been signed - for ex., Nelson Cruz. But be fair, and look at the FA that seemed right to you at the time. Tell me who they are and what they did, and whether that would have added enough to the Cubs.
Bottom line is this: You wish the Cubs were doing it the same way they have been for much of the past 40-50 years. Many of us don't.
The Cardinals and Pirates and Reds made the playoffs last year. Free Agent impact? Minimal.
Cards and Brewers this year. Free Agents? Matt Garza and his 4+ ERA and .500 record.
There's a few examples without getting out of our own division.
Again, I didn't say the Cubs should never spend on FA. I said it was smart up until now, as there weren't any who would make a difference on the teams of the past few years.
This is the point where you can use hindsight, and cherry pick which FA's could have been signed - for ex., Nelson Cruz. But be fair, and look at the FA that seemed right to you at the time. Tell me who they are and what they did, and whether that would have added enough to the Cubs.
Bottom line is this: You wish the Cubs were doing it the same way they have been for much of the past 40-50 years. Many of us don't.
Meatball
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There were plenty of players that could have made them much better.
The Cardinals are the best example here for my point. They consistently build on both levels at the same time. They never had to stop and rebuild the farm system and let the on field team become among the worst in franchise history in order to win later.
On the contrary, I actually want to see them win.
I'm just not willing to lie to myself that the current plan is right one until I actually see it work and I don't get wood every time Theo adds another piece to the farm like the rest of you.
JP Hochbaum
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Then you should have no problem filling the roster for us and telling us who made us a playoff team.
dabears253313
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Remember when pat said that Starlin Castro is what his 2013 stats said he is? Now he is going his third all star game lol. Same thing with Anthony Rizzo and now Rizzo might be an all star as well lol.
Boobaby1
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The Cardinals are the exception and not the rule. Yes, they did indeed spend to be competitive in the early 2000's as stated by owner Bill DeWitt. They then focused heavily on the farms pitching with then Scouting director, Jeff Lunhow, who is now the Astro's GM.
However, not every team is blessed to have one of the greatest flukes of all time fall into their hands in Albert Pujols who they could build a team around, and arguably also have the greatest catcher of all time come out of the farm too.
Speaking of, that little farm thing also netted them Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen, and Matt Holiday.
Look around the leagues, and check out the Dodgers, Royals, A's, M's, Cardinals, Nat's, Brewers, Orioles, Giant's, Red's, Pirates, Braves, and others, and check out their better players and see how many are home grown. You might be surprised.
While I am in the boat to add pieces as you go from year to year, it will definitely make it more affordable to net the complimentary players you need with the more in-house product that you have on the field. It's common sense.
Their payroll will be starting at roughly 31 million next year, and with potentially 3 kids starting on the Cubs in 2014 making the league minimum, I can't think if a better time to start throwing a little cash out there to net a couple of good players to help round out this team. They could very well be competing next year for a playoff spot if they can bring in the right players, and they don't have to exceed 100 million mark to do it.
Get ready boys, because things are going to get crazy from here on out. :buttrock:
TL1961
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Chicago Now has an interview with a scout who describes what they may be putting on the field soon as "baseball porn".
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That wasnt the true pat. It was kbisback. Most likely meatball is kb as well.
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My favorite teams
Can we get a link? I'm not finding it.
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