Cubs Spring Training Discussion Thread

[dabynsky]

If healthy Vizcaino will be a monster. That is a big if but man his stuff is just jaw dropping.

 

[patg006]

If healthy Vizcaino will be a monster. That is a big if but man his stuff is just jaw dropping.

it was one BP session.

Didn't pretty much every pitcher in baseball look like they had jaw dropping stuff against the Cubs hitters last year?

I will be excited if he moves back into the rotation and is productive.

Anything else will be a waste for trading away a pitcher who likely would have been the #1 starter on the team this year.

 

[dabynsky]

it was one BP session.

Didn't pretty much every pitcher in baseball look like they had jaw dropping stuff against the Cubs hitters last year?

I will be excited if he moves back into the rotation and is productive.

Anything else will be a waste for trading away a pitcher who likely would have been the #1 starter on the team this year.

I forgot everyone was hitting 98 yesterday in the bullpen. My mistake.

And yep a guy who managed a 4.41 ERA with 1.42 WHIP last year would definitely be the best pitcher on this year's team.

 

[patg006]

I forgot everyone was hitting 98 yesterday in the bullpen. My mistake.

As I said, I will be excited when he is hitting 98 as part of the rotation and getting hitters out. I must have stuttered. My mistake.

And yep a guy who managed a 4.41 ERA with 1.42 WHIP last year would definitely be the best pitcher on this year's team.

The guy who went roughly 3.70 ERA and 1.23 WHIP over 2011-2012 likely would be.

Joel Zumaya and Kyle Farnsworth used to hit 98 in the bullpen all the time. Didn't make them effective major league pitchers. Major League hitters can catch up to 98 as they did on Vizcaino in 2011 when he posted a 4.67 ERA and 1.44 WHIP in limited action.

 

[dabynsky]

As I said, I will be excited when he is hitting 98 as part of the rotation and getting hitters out. I must have stuttered. My mistake.

No stuttering, but when you wrote this

Didn't pretty much every pitcher in baseball look like they had jaw dropping stuff against the Cubs hitters last year?

Indicates clearly that you question the stuff.

The guy who went roughly 3.70 ERA and 1.23 WHIP over 2011-2012 likely would be.

If any major league team believed that they were getting that guy he would have gotten more than a one and half million dollar guaranteed deal for one year. Try again.

Joel Zumaya and Kyle Farnsworth used to hit 98 in the bullpen all the time. Didn't make them effective major league pitchers. Major League hitters can catch up to 98 as they did on Vizcaino in 2011 when he posted a 4.67 ERA and 1.44 WHIP in limited action.

At age 20... Seriously only you and a few of the other Boy Blunder Brigade have questioned the stuff of Vizcaino. The guy has two plus pitches according to every objective scouting report that has been written on him. The question, which I brought up in the post you quoted and every post I have ever written about him, has always been can he stay healthy. He is healthy right now. If he stays that we could have something.

 

[beckdawg]

it was one BP session.

Didn't pretty much every pitcher in baseball look like they had jaw dropping stuff against the Cubs hitters last year?

I will be excited if he moves back into the rotation and is productive.

Anything else will be a waste for trading away a pitcher who likely would have been the #1 starter on the team this year.

I doubt they do that soonish. I think they will casually build him back up. If they intend to keep him in the minors they may piggyback him with another "starter" by giving each like 4-5 inniings in a game to keep their pitch counts low. I'd imagine that's the approach they take this year and I don't know that he'll be in the majors this year. In 2015, they could probably bring him along similar to the way the cards have young pitchers in the bullpen or how the cubs handled Shark. Then maybe in 2016 you might give him more of a realistic shot at a starter.

That said, he did have jaw dropping stuff pre-injury. That's obviously a giant caveat but given all he's thrown in 2 years is the current BP sessions you sort of assume it's the same stuff until proven other wise. I wouldn't count on him for a couple of years though as I said above. If they are able to turn him into a starter their future pitching looks a lot brighter though.

 

[patg006]

Indicates clearly that you question the stuff.

No.

It clearly questions the effectiveness of the Cubs hitters.

If any major league team believed that they were getting that guy he would have gotten more than a one and half million dollar guaranteed deal for one year. Try again

.

If any major league team thought they were getting an elite, top of the rotation starter in Vizcaino then it would have taken a whole lot more than Paul Maholm to get him away from the Braves. Try again.

The question, which I brought up in the post you quoted and every post I have ever written about him, has always been can he stay healthy. He is healthy right now. If he stays that we could have something.

And the answer I provided to your question is that not only does he have to stay healthy, he needs to stay healthy AND be an effective major league starter.

A middle reliever or even closer is not enough to move this franchise forward.

Hell they found a closer on waivers last year and this offseason picked one up for a 1 year/ $4M deal.

Wake me when he is in the rotation and getting hitters out and I will join the circle jerk if you guys haven't dried out by then over a bullpen session.

 

[patg006]

That said, he did have jaw dropping stuff pre-injury.

It's the major leagues though.

There are PLENTY of guys with jaw dropping stuff.

 

[dabynsky]

If any major league team thought they were getting an elite, top of the rotation starter in Vizcaino then it would have taken a whole lot more than Paul Maholm to get him away from the Braves. Try again.

Bingo. The only reason the Cubs got a player with the caliber of stuff that Vizcaino had for Paul freaking Maholm is because of concerns over health. Only took a year for us to end up on the same page.

Spoiler

 

[Parade_Rain]

Good gawd. It's one thing to be critical of the Cubs, but acting like a spurned lover seems a bit over the top.

 

[beckdawg]

It's the major leagues though.

There are PLENTY of guys with jaw dropping stuff.

Eh... i mean a lot of people have "good" stuff. I'd have to look up scouting reports from back in the 2012ish timeline but based on what I've read I'd imagine his fastball and curve are 65-70 type pitches. A lot of top prospects have 1 really solid pitch and a secondary good pitch. If you're talking about someone like Bradley he's got a 70 fastball and a 65 curve and a 50 change. Walker is a 70 fastball a 55 curve and a 55 change. If you go to 50ish player like Jesse Biddle he has 55 fastball 60 curve and 50 change up. To put it another way, all the hype that Edwards has... Vizcaino's stuff is actually likely better. Not saying he's a "better" pitcher just that he can throw it a bit harder and from what I have read his curve is really good as well.

Pre-injury in the MLB's he hit 95.8 average on his fastball albeit in a small sample size. I think it was out of the pen so maybe subtract 1-2 mph off it if you make him a starter. In terms of starters last year, Matt Harvey(95.4), Stephen Strasburg(95.2), Jose Fernandez(94.8), Andrew Cashner(94.6), Shark(94.6), Wily Peralta(94.6), Homer Bailey(94.1) and Verlander(94.0) were the only pitchers who averaged above 94. Looking at the pitch fx for his curve it doesn't appear to have a huge break to it(-3.6 vertical movement). However, that's a similar movement that Harvey and Bailey have and when you combine that with the fact he throws it at 81.6 mph it's a lot tougher to hit. That's part of the reason Harvey has success because he throws his fastball at 94.6 mph and his curve 82.5. What's also nice about Vizcaino at least in the minors is his control was pretty good. Throughout the minors he had a 2.3 bb/9 with a 9.3 k/9.

Now don't take that as me saying Vizcaino is as good as Harvey because he's just not proven. I'm just saying his kit is similar. The problem with Vizcaino is the same problem if not worse that Edwards has in that can he be a starter? In Edwards case he's yet to break down. Vizcaino already has. So, there's a ton of justified worry there.

If they ever can get him on track as a starter like the padres have done with Cashner you're talking about a potentially big win. Not minimizing that "if." But given the fact that it's a big reward for a minimal loss. In fact, I kind of like that Cashner comparison though instead of giving up Rizzo you're giving up Maholm which in my opinion Rizzo is worth more than Maholm.

 

[patg006]

Bingo. The only reason the Cubs got a player with the caliber of stuff that Vizcaino had for Paul freaking Maholm is because of concerns over health. Only took a year for us to end up on the same page.

Spoiler

And it only took a year and a half for him to have a good BP session for the Cubs.

He has still yet to throw a single competitive pitch for the Cubs organization at any level.

It will be at least another year before he gets a shot at the Chicago Cubs starting rotation. That is the only outcome that will move this franchise forward.

Giving up an established major league starter for a middle relief pitcher or closer is not a step forward, no matter how many years of team control the team has. Those guys are really not all that hard to find. Like I pointed out earlier, the Cubs found a closer last year off the waiver wire and this offseason got one for a 1 year $4M deal.

You can find those guys almost every single year without having to give up player assets to acquire.

 

[patg006]

Eh... i mean a lot of people have "good" stuff. I'd have to look up scouting reports from back in the 2012ish timeline but based on what I've read I'd imagine his fastball and curve are 65-70 type pitches. A lot of top prospects have 1 really solid pitch and a secondary good pitch. If you're talking about someone like Bradley he's got a 70 fastball and a 65 curve and a 50 change. Walker is a 70 fastball a 55 curve and a 55 change. If you go to 50ish player like Jesse Biddle he has 55 fastball 60 curve and 50 change up. To put it another way, all the hype that Edwards has... Vizcaino's stuff is actually likely better. Not saying he's a "better" pitcher just that he can throw it a bit harder and from what I have read his curve is really good as well.

There are a lot of major league pitchers with two plus pitches.

I found a report from Dec 2011 on baseballprospectnation.com that had him at 60 on both fastball and curveball.

I would wager that most, if not all, major league organizations have a guy in their system who has 'stuff' comparable to that of Vizcaino yet people want to act like he is a once in a generation talent.

Now don't take that as me saying Vizcaino is as good as Harvey because he's just not proven. I'm just saying his kit is similar. The problem with Vizcaino is the same problem if not worse that Edwards has in that can he be a starter? In Edwards case he's yet to break down. Vizcaino already has. So, there's a ton of justified worry there.

If they ever can get him on track as a starter like the padres have done with Cashner you're talking about a potentially big win. Not minimizing that "if." But given the fact that it's a big reward for a minimal loss. In fact, I kind of like that Cashner comparison though instead of giving up Rizzo you're giving up Maholm which in my opinion Rizzo is worth more than Maholm.

No.

His 'kit' is nowhere close to Harvey's. Not even similar. This is where Cub fans come off as Fanboys and unrealistic.

The total upside you see out of this is Andrew Cashner. Well the Cubs could have just kept Cashner and still have had Maholm and easily have picked up a guy in FA that is equal to, if not better, than Rizzo.

That would be three players on the major league roster.

Right now the Cubs have one, maybe two in Vizcaino in a year or so if everything goes right. If all he ends up being is a middle relief/setup guy or closer that really isn't a win because you can find those type of guys every single offseason in FA.

But glad to see someone finally admit the Padres were a big winner in the Cashner/Rizzo trade.

 

[beckdawg]

No. His 'kit' is nowhere close to Harvey's. Not even similar. This is where Cub fans come off as Fanboys and unrealistic.

I disagree. He was a top 40 prospect with the main thing holding him back being durability questions. All of the scouting reports from that time frame mention his top of the rotation potential. There was very little question about his stuff. That's not homerism. That's what prospect evaluators actually have said. I'm not making this shit up. If it were being unrealistic and fanboy-ish I would have said he's going to be a starter and his injury issues are in the past. Also how the hell is it not similar? I literally just showed you that his fastball is a similar speed and his curve has similar speed and break.

But glad to see someone finally admit the Padres were a big winner in the Cashner/Rizzo trade.

I didn't say this. I don't think there's a clear cut winner at the moment. Cashner had a good year this year and a bad year last year with the opposite happening with Rizzo. And Cashner was crap outside of PETCO this year where he had 1.95 ERA with a 4.00 ERA on the road. I'd argue, and I have, that Cashner's 2013 season is more a product of PETCO than him being a top of the rotation starter.

 

[CSF77]

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/21487/cubs-notes-olt-seeing-just-fine#more

MESA, Ariz. -- Baseball players get asked it all the time, but for Chicago Cubs third base prospect Mike Olt the question has more meaning.

“How are you seeing the ball?”

Olt had vision problems last spring, which helped derail his season with the Texas Rangers before he was traded to the Cubs. He didn’t fare much better at Triple-A Iowa, hitting .168 in 39 games.

All that’s behind him now.

“I don’t mind answering that anymore,” Olt says. “Last year was so stressful because we didn’t know what was going on. I don’t mind answering that this year because I’m better.”


Olt has only taken batting practice against coaches and a few rips against Cubs pitchers, but already he knows he feels better than a year ago. Now it’s about finding his swing again -- he hit 28 home runs at Double-A for Texas in 2012.

“I haven’t had any problems so far,” he said.

Olt has been taking ground balls at first base as well at third to make himself more versatile.

Renteria ready for games: The Cubs having been going hard since the beginning of camp so manager Rick Renteria is asking his players to back off in advance of Cactus League play, which begins on Thursday.

“Workouts have been great but I think everyone is getting anxious to get in there and feel a game,” he said Sunday. “I’d rather pull someone back, then try and get them going. Great work but let’s measure ourselves. Not only the young guys, but some of the veterans are going after it pretty hard.”

The Cubs will play an intra-squad game on Wednesday at their new stadium with minor league starter Kyle Hendricks facing Eric Jokisch. Jeff Samardzija is slated to pitch against the Arizona Diamondbacks on Thursday.

Renteria has yet to announce any other lineup or pitching schedules.

Castillo impressed: Catcher Welington Castillo was asked to name a pitcher or two who have impressed him over the first two weeks of camp
.
“I had to face (Arodys) Vizcaino,” Castillo said. “The ball came out really good. You don’t see power pitches have that command. His velocity is amazing. He’s something special.”

“I see Edwin (Jackson) way different than last year. More confident, better execution. I think he’s going to have a good year.”

 

[CSF77]

https://vine.co/v/MmTa55MEg5Z

[video]https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/9FB117CC0B1049797165918162944_133276c1bf3.4.7.1148 0147210028317312.mp4?versionId=l.uFrdUSVreATA9P0r5 22NAtVzWXPb8u[/video]

 

[beckdawg]

https://vine.co/v/MmTa55MEg5Z

[video]https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/9FB117CC0B1049797165918162944_133276c1bf3.4.7.1148 0147210028317312.mp4?versionId=l.uFrdUSVreATA9P0r5 22NAtVzWXPb8u[/video]

I feel like this video is a terrible angle. Hard to tell what is going on in terms of pitch/hit location

 

[DewsSox79]

rizzo is ok. nothing special. i think it was an "emotional attachment" move for hoyer which moves like that can be costly.


Sent from my Rotary Phone using Tapatalk

 

[beckdawg]

rizzo is ok. nothing special.

I'd give him a few more years before you past judgement. He was 23 to start last year. To put that into perspective, Goldschmidt was splitting time between AA and the majors(457 PAs in AA 117 in MLB) at age 23. Chris Davis was hitting .238/.284/.442 with 21 HRs at 23. Joey Votto was still in AAA at 23. 2013 may be all Rizzo ever is. However, Rizzo wouldn't be the first player to struggle at 23.

 

[patg006]

I forgot everyone was hitting 98 yesterday in the bullpen. My mistake.

Good thing he was hitting 98 yesterday in the intra squad game when he also walked two and struggled to get through an inning.