Cubs tentatively trade Sean Marshall to Reds for Travis Wood + prospects (updated)

[The Bandit]

So use career numbers.

Career numbers have nothing to do with now. If you wanna use career numbers I could prove that Andruw Jones is one of the best CFers in the game.

 

[Rice Cube]

The other point I was trying to make is that while Thornton had a bad time closing, with only four innings to go off of, it's kind of tough to draw any conclusions that aren't knee-jerk. Relievers are also very volatile from season to season. Over the course of his career Thornton has been a very good reliever though and it's difficult to see how he wouldn't be able to replicate his success in the 9th inning instead of the 8th or 7th. You still have to get three outs...sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. That's baseball.

I understand that the Sox had to make a change as they felt they could be contenders, and they also traded for a new closer, I think (didn't pay as much attention), but I'd give Thornton another shot at it. It'd be interesting to learn the details of his 4 innings as closer but I don't really want to dig through the game logs myself :lol:

 

[brett05]

If it goes down a 1/3 of a run, he is still short in ERA+, but not as far off.

Right. All I am saying as just a single reliever, not a closer, not a starter, that pitches left handed, Matt Thorton has an edge, but perhaps not as great as I have led on.

 

[brett05]

The other point I was trying to make is that while Thornton had a bad time closing, with only four innings to go off of, it's kind of tough to draw any conclusions that aren't knee-jerk. Relievers are also very volatile from season to season. Over the course of his career Thornton has been a very good reliever though and it's difficult to see how he wouldn't be able to replicate his success in the 9th inning instead of the 8th or 7th. You still have to get three outs...sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. That's baseball.

I understand that the Sox had to make a change as they felt they could be contenders, and they also traded for a new closer, I think (didn't pay as much attention), but I'd give Thornton another shot at it. It'd be interesting to learn the details of his 4 innings as closer but I don't really want to dig through the game logs myself :lol:

Oh, there's more horror, that was just April

 

[Jntg4]

So use career numbers.

That's dumb, what Marshall did several years ago as a starter has nothing to do with who is better right now. How about using decline/incline in stats in recent history to see a trend.

2009 Thornton: 172
2010 Thornton: 161
2011 Thornton: 128 (138 how you did it)

You see that he is declining which makes sense, given that he is 35.

Marshall has been getting better each year but is probably at his peak now, but a 172 is still quite a bit better than a 128/138, even if you do more to make it even more league-adjustable.

 

[Jntg4]

Right. All I am saying as just a single reliever, not a closer, not a starter, that pitches left handed, Matt Thorton has an edge, but perhaps not as great as I have led on.

No, Marshall has an edge still, and a pretty decent sized one, not a huge one, but a pretty good one.

 

[Rice Cube]

Oh, there's more horror, that was just April

So what were the play-by-plays for Matt Thornton's House of Closing Horrors? I'm just curious.

 

[Jntg4]

There were horrors for both over the past few years, anybody remember that Colorado game when it took several pitchers to get out of an inning that both Marshall and then Cashner got shelled in in 2010... that has an even bigger effect on his stats over the past few years than Thornton closing did...

 

[ZDemp34]

I love when threads get hijacked with pointless arguments <3

 

[Rice Cube]

There were horrors for both over the past few years, anybody remember that Colorado game when it took several pitchers to get out of an inning that both Marshall and then Cashner got shelled in in 2010... that has an even bigger effect on his stats over the past few years than Thornton closing did...

That was awesome. They gave up something like 18 hits in a row. That's not just bad pitching, it was bad luck :lol:

 

[Jntg4]

That was awesome. They gave up something like 18 hits in a row. That's not just bad pitching, it was bad luck :lol:

Still think somebody may have been tipping pitches, that was insane, lol.

But I think this goes to show that it isn't right to exclude certain games a player did bad in just to say that they are better when everybody has a bad stretch once in a while... and in Marshall's case it overrides several games Brett can bring up and then some considering that he couldn't record an out (or did he get 1?) and it was several runs, as opposed to 4 runs per 12 outs for a stretch for Thornton.

 

[Rice Cube]

No, you definitely can't cherrypick especially not when you have such a small sample size.

 

[WindyCity]

The more and more I think about this deal the more I like it as we get youth and upside, which is what this team needs.

Has anyone heard what propsects are being talked about?

 

[The Bandit]

Same here, get it done.

 

[ZDemp34]

The more and more I think about this deal the more I like it as we get youth and upside, which is what this team needs.

Yeah. Marshall's at his prime right now and by the time we contend, he'll be in his 30's and declining. It'd be better to get some youth for the long term.

 

[brett05]

So what were the play-by-plays for Matt Thornton's House of Closing Horrors? I'm just curious.

Sorry, I'm in a class tht makes Ivy League schools look cheap.

I would have to research it more, but in the four April closes with four blown saves he gave up 4 earned runs and *gulp* 10 unearned ones. I'll keep pouring thru box scores as I get a chance. I seem to remember a 5-7 run outing as a closer too

 

[brett05]

Still think somebody may have been tipping pitches, that was insane, lol.

But I think this goes to show that it isn't right to exclude certain games a player did bad in just to say that they are better when everybody has a bad stretch once in a while... and in Marshall's case it overrides several games Brett can bring up and then some considering that he couldn't record an out (or did he get 1?) and it was several runs, as opposed to 4 runs per 12 outs for a stretch for Thornton.

Bring up the box score.

I toss out closing as the statement was on reliver which implies for sure not a closer.

 

[Rice Cube]

Sorry, I'm in a class tht makes Ivy League schools look cheap.

I would have to research it more, but in the four April closes with four blown saves he gave up 4 earned runs and *gulp* 10 unearned ones. I'll keep pouring thru box scores as I get a chance. I seem to remember a 5-7 run outing as a closer too

Take your time. I'm sure the Sox are more likely to keep him at setup and have their new guy close.

 

[waldo7239117]

The more and more I think about this deal the more I like it as we get youth and upside, which is what this team needs.

Has anyone heard what propsects are being talked about?

None have been mentioned, but they won't be too bad and will have potential.

 

[brett05]

Take your time. I'm sure the Sox are more likely to keep him at setup and have their new guy close.

We have a new closer, but didn't acquire one per se. We traded away Santos for an up and coming pitching prospect.