Darvish is a Cub!

[chibears55]

For those of you who preferred Arrieta over Darvish...
He was given a chance before Darvish to take the 6 yr offer, he turned it down..

Before the Cubs agreed to terms with Yu Darvish, Theo Epstein contacted Jake Arrieta to see if the former Chicago ace would be willing to accept a six-year offer in the range of the $126MM given to Darvish, FanRag Sports’ Jon Heyman reports. “Darvish was the focus by that point, but with some uncertainty about whether he’d take the deal, Epstein made the call to Arrieta to see where he stood,”

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[CSF77]

For those of you who preferred Arrieta over Darvish...
He was given a chance before Darvish to take the 6 yr offer, he turned it down..

Before the Cubs agreed to terms with Yu Darvish, Theo Epstein contacted Jake Arrieta to see if the former Chicago ace would be willing to accept a six-year offer in the range of the $126MM given to Darvish, FanRag Sports’ Jon Heyman reports. “Darvish was the focus by that point, but with some uncertainty about whether he’d take the deal, Epstein made the call to Arrieta to see where he stood,”

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Read that. I’m pretty sure that was a guilt thing going on.

 

[chibears55]

Double header. Not DH.

Pitchers run on 5 man rotations. They get a extra day off on off days and rain outs. trying to go with a 6 man should be a season long decision where starters would be let go to up their pitch counts and they subtract a pen arm.

Some teams have talked about it but I doubt ownership would OK it. That is adding 30 more starters and the income that goes along with it. It took forever to add a 5th starter as it is

Add to it adding higher work loads with a extra day off is something that could lead to injury to body’s that have been trained in a certain way.

There are too many factors to concider before making uneducated statements.

Got it with DH...

I wasnt saying go with a 6 man rotation...

Lol

Not sure what so confusing here with this...

They have a 34 yo starter in Lester and who will be 32 yo starter in Darvish who coming off a long season going to WS...

Maddon likes to give his guys extra rest... they have a guy who wants to start and has been effective and flexible being used in pen and starter in Montgomery ...

All im saying is that i wouldnt be surprise if Maddon decides to give his starters an extra day off a month and use Monty ...

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[chibears55]

You're going in circles now.

I understand the possibility of doing it later in the season if you have a lead. That is far, far different than doing it in May.

And if you don't understand that having a 6th starter takes starts away from the 1st and 2nd (and others), I don't know what to say. There are a limited number of games, and if a 6th starter gets some starts, they have to come from someone. If a 6th starter is involved, all start fewer games.

If Maddon started Monty once or twice a month in May June July Augest to give the starters an extra day off or two that would be 4 to 8 starts...

Each regular starter would be short 1 or 2 starts at end of year at the very least..

That not a big deal

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[chibears55]

Read that. I’m pretty sure that was a guilt thing going on.

Sounds more like what he did with Cobb and Chatwood...
He offered both close to the same deal, Cobb refused and Chatwood took it...



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[Iceman2385]

I actually am a fan of 6 man rotations in certain situations. IMO this Cubs team is built perfect for a 6 man rotation. Factors that help support a 6 man rotation.

1 must have a clearly better team then the rest of the division...check
2 must have 6 solid starters...check
3 must have a deep flexible position players core, so u can have a shorter bench bc u need more pitchers w a 6 man rotation...check

I think this would help a lot w r pitchers, especially Lester and DArvish...bc there not young and Yu has some injury issues in the past. Also would benefit Chatwood bc he has injury issues as well. Also would keep Monty happy and engaged, also might help his trade value bc he would be used as a starter. To me a 6 man rotation makes a lot of sense, if it doesn’t work you can always just go back to a 5 man rotation.

Another factor is I’m guessing none of r pitchers would be too upset if we decided to do this, since none of them r on a contract year. I say be bold, and try a new strategy!

 

[Omeletpants]

6 man rotations have turned these players into pussies

 

[Iceman2385]

6 man rotations have turned these players into pussies

Has a team ever used a 6 man rotation consistently throughout the year? I think the cubs would be revolutionary if they did it throughout an entire year. And pitchers rnt pussies, they throw a baseball at blazing fast speeds over a grueling long season. Also throwing a baseball isn’t naturally good for humans elbow and shoulder.

 

[Omeletpants]

Has a team ever used a 6 man rotation consistently throughout the year? I think the cubs would be revolutionary if they did it throughout an entire year. And pitchers rnt pussies, they throw a baseball at blazing fast speeds over a grueling long season. Also throwing a baseball isn’t naturally good for humans elbow and shoulder.

4 man rotations were fine for 70 years. You dont think guys like Gibson, Koufax, McDowell, Seaver, Feller, McClain, Ryan, Duren, Bunning, Drysdale, Maricahel threw the ball hard. Plus they had worse travel conditions, worse training, worse nutrition and worse medical. On top of that SPs pitched more innings. Give me a break

 

[Iceman2385]

4 man rotations were fine for 70 years. You dont think guys like Gibson, Koufax, McDowell, Seaver, Feller, McClain, Ryan, Duren, Bunning, Drysdale, Maricahel threw the ball hard. Plus they had worse travel conditions, worse training, worse nutrition and worse medical. On top of that SPs pitched more innings. Give me a break

Well if the evolution of the game went from 4 men to 5 men, don’t think it’s impossiple it’s goes from 5 to 6. Plus in Japan they use a 6 man staff, so it’s not completely un heard of. IMO r team is built perfectly to try it out, w my reasons above. Ultimately, if it keeps r pitchers healthier up until the playoffs, I say why not? IMO no team in r division is really in r league, so we’re not risking much trying it out.

But yea those pitchers were badass back in the day, they don’t make em like they use to lol. Also I think on average a pitchers velocity is much faster then in the past. They can prob do that bc for one BP pitchers can go all out for 1 inning, back in the day they pitched multiple innings. Also SPs don’t pitch as many innings as before (as u stated) so they can leave less in the gas tank every start. Also fitness improvement allows pitchers to throw harder. Fitness improvements from batters also requires pitchers to be more effective and/or throw harder. Regardless of how impressive pitchers were in the past, i think a team should do what’s best for there players/team right now, if that means a 6 man staff then do it!

 

[beckdawg]

Has a team ever used a 6 man rotation consistently throughout the year? I think the cubs would be revolutionary if they did it throughout an entire year. And pitchers rnt pussies, they throw a baseball at blazing fast speeds over a grueling long season. Also throwing a baseball isn’t naturally good for humans elbow and shoulder.

Not entirely AFAIK. Colorado a few years used what's likely to be more feasible which is the piggy back system. That's what they use in the minors to limit pitch counts on young arms. Basic idea is they eliminate a lot of middle relief in on the staff and have more starters. The idea is for the "starter" to go 4-5 innings and 80-90 pitches then you put in the second "starter" for roughly equivalent time and you have a few guys on the back end to close games out.

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me if this happens in the majors in the next 20 years. The main issue would be you're limiting your LH/RH match ups a bit. But the upside is you get to throw your best pitchers more often. For example, would you rather 6 innings of Lester 32 times a year or 4-5 innings 40-45 times a year? Also, it makes certain pitchers who aren't exactly viable right now as starters possible. For example, there's any number of power arms who don't have enough control to pitch 5-6 innings and they get turned into relievers. In this sort of scheme rather than being strong 1-2 inning guys you can milk 3-4 innings out of them.

Also re: the conversation about pitchers now being pussies or whatever Ommy would say, really has less to do with that and more to do with the fact teams don't like guys going through an order a third time unless they are fairly dominant guys. For example, Maddon would never let Hendricks go throw the order a third time in 2015 and the first half of 2016. Injuries are obviously some what a concern with why they like to limit guys to 100 pitches but more often than not they'd rather just put a new fresh guy in because the opponents have seen the guy at least twice already and likely three times by the time a starter usually gets pulled.

 

[beckdawg]

You're going in circles now.

I understand the possibility of doing it later in the season if you have a lead. That is far, far different than doing it in May.

And if you don't understand that having a 6th starter takes starts away from the 1st and 2nd (and others), I don't know what to say. There are a limited number of games, and if a 6th starter gets some starts, they have to come from someone. If a 6th starter is involved, all start fewer games.

Eh.. I sorta agree with chibears here. What I could see maddon doing is once or maybe twice a month prior to august giving Monty a spot start and pushing guys back a day. Obviously you'd pick your spots. You're almost certainly not doing it against the cards or the brewers. But say the getaway game on a sunday vs MIA(not sure they even play them on a sunday but just throwing an example out)? Why not? Maddon already likes to clear the bench with hitters a couple of times a month anyways.

 

[brett05]

Not entirely AFAIK. Colorado a few years used what's likely to be more feasible which is the piggy back system. That's what they use in the minors to limit pitch counts on young arms. Basic idea is they eliminate a lot of middle relief in on the staff and have more starters. The idea is for the "starter" to go 4-5 innings and 80-90 pitches then you put in the second "starter" for roughly equivalent time and you have a few guys on the back end to close games out.

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me if this happens in the majors in the next 20 years. The main issue would be you're limiting your LH/RH match ups a bit. But the upside is you get to throw your best pitchers more often. For example, would you rather 6 innings of Lester 32 times a year or 4-5 innings 40-45 times a year? Also, it makes certain pitchers who aren't exactly viable right now as starters possible. For example, there's any number of power arms who don't have enough control to pitch 5-6 innings and they get turned into relievers. In this sort of scheme rather than being strong 1-2 inning guys you can milk 3-4 innings out of them.

Also re: the conversation about pitchers now being pussies or whatever Ommy would say, really has less to do with that and more to do with the fact teams don't like guys going through an order a third time unless they are fairly dominant guys. For example, Maddon would never let Hendricks go throw the order a third time in 2015 and the first half of 2016. Injuries are obviously some what a concern with why they like to limit guys to 100 pitches but more often than not they'd rather just put a new fresh guy in because the opponents have seen the guy at least twice already and likely three times by the time a starter usually gets pulled.

LaRussa tried it. Failed

 

[brett05]

Just want to say congrats to you all. It's a great signing and puts you right there among the best teams

 

[CSF77]

Eh.. I sorta agree with chibears here. What I could see maddon doing is once or maybe twice a month prior to august giving Monty a spot start and pushing guys back a day. Obviously you'd pick your spots. You're almost certainly not doing it against the cards or the brewers. But say the getaway game on a sunday vs MIA(not sure they even play them on a sunday but just throwing an example out)? Why not? Maddon already likes to clear the bench with hitters a couple of times a month anyways.

I could see him do this on a 14 day run if the starters look worn. But it depends on when it falls. 14 day run going into the ASG would be pointless. Say he knows Yu is going to be on the ASG then it makes sense to piggyback him on his last start.

I would rather see a limiting vs a change in routeen. So if you want to reduce wear it makes sense to keep the on/off days consistent but you can hold him to 5 innings then you a 2 inning arm to push the game to the set up.

Thus having 2 2 inning arms makes more sense then pushing a arm into a role that promotes arm fatigue that could lead to injury.

Montgomery has already talked about this issue as it is and how it taxes his arm last year

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

4 man rotations were fine for 70 years. You dont think guys like Gibson, Koufax, McDowell, Seaver, Feller, McClain, Ryan, Duren, Bunning, Drysdale, Maricahel threw the ball hard. Plus they had worse travel conditions, worse training, worse nutrition and worse medical. On top of that SPs pitched more innings. Give me a break

Don't forget they walked 10 miles uphill to work in 100+ degree weather every day.....barefoot.

 

[chibears55]

Darvish and Quintana were the 2 top starters available at deadline last year..
Cubs now have both to start this year

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[brett05]

Don't forget they walked 10 miles uphill to work in 100+ degree weather every day.....barefoot.

Except for those blizzards in June cause there was no climate change then.

 

[TL1961]

Eh.. I sorta agree with chibears here. What I could see maddon doing is once or maybe twice a month prior to august giving Monty a spot start and pushing guys back a day. Obviously you'd pick your spots. You're almost certainly not doing it against the cards or the brewers. But say the getaway game on a sunday vs MIA(not sure they even play them on a sunday but just throwing an example out)? Why not? Maddon already likes to clear the bench with hitters a couple of times a month anyways.

I agree with that.

My issue was pushing our top pitchers back in MAY for Option #6.

Chibears suggested May. I don’t agree with that.

 

[DanTown]

4 man rotations were fine for 70 years. You dont think guys like Gibson, Koufax, McDowell, Seaver, Feller, McClain, Ryan, Duren, Bunning, Drysdale, Maricahel threw the ball hard. Plus they had worse travel conditions, worse training, worse nutrition and worse medical. On top of that SPs pitched more innings. Give me a break

League slashline in 1969 (first year lowered mound) for the NL was .250/.319/.369 and a OPS+ of 93
Curt Flood was a slightly better than average hitter in the NL with a slash of ..285/.344/.366 and a OPS+ of 100
There were two players with a slugging percentage above .600
There were eight players with a slugging percentage between .500 and .599
There were 25 players with a slugging percentage between .400 and .499


League slashline in 2017 for the NL was .253/.325/.423 and a OPS+ of 94
Denard Span was an "average" hitter in the NL with a slash of .272/.329/.427 and a OPS+ of 100
There were two qualified hitters with slugging percentages above .600
There were 17 qualified hitters with slugging percentages between .500 and .599
There were 38 qualified hitters with slugging percentages between .400 and .499

The idea that pitchers in 1969 faced similar hitters is laughable. And it's not velocity that causes arms to fatigue, it's an over abundance of breaking pitches. Almost any pitcher will tell you that if they throw just heat that they can do that but they can't get hitters out in the majors without deception and breaking pitches. Because of the advent of video scouting, pitchers have to be way more consistent with their pitching mechanics and not "tip" via slowing down to throw breaking pitches. If pitchers could naturally throw breaking pitches in a manner that is maybe consistent but not possible to pick up to the human eye like they did for the first 100 years of baseball, then pitchers could still throw 300 innings and such. But there is no way that pitchers arms have gotten weaker but they've been asked to do far more.