Deceive without Lying

[Warrior Spirit]

You continue with the black-and-white definitions of communication....

You are hopeless.... still my VP but dis why you my VP..... it takes all sorts.

A lie is a black and white thing. Deceptions are merely lies told in order for the liar to gain something for himself from that lie. When Big Pharma tells you vaccines will save you from a scary disease and are not harmful to you, they are lying to you cause they want your business.

When Despbro tells you Jay Cutler is a stud QB, he is lying to you cause he wants you to love Jay as much as he does.

 

[Bearin' Down]

If I tell you the sky is going to fall today, I expect you to believe I'm not serious but whether you take it seriously or not, it is still a lie cause the sky is not going to fall today. ..... maybe tomorrow but definitely not today.

Except you never intended for that statement to be taken seriously. Just the opposite, your intention was in your sarcasm indicating that no you have no interest in the protein bar.

At any rate, the question is not what is the definition of a lie. It's whether you can deceive someone without telling a lie. That answer is unequivocally, yes.

Take Ares example but flip it. You use a lot of sarcasm on a day to day basis. Co-worker says you want to go to the protein bar for lunch? You say yes, because you actually love it. However, the co-worker misreads your enthusiasm as sarcasm. They go with other co-workers and come back, and you're sitting there wondering what the hell. They explain they thought you were being sarcastic and had no interest in going, but others wanted to go. You've deceived that person while being fully honest.

 

[remydat]

Lying is a specific type of deception but deception is broader. One common form of deception that is not a lie is equivocation where one says something indirectly or that is ambiguous and can be interpreted different ways. My go to example of this is when a girl asks if I am seeing anyone else and my response is "not at the moment" which one can interpret as my saying I am not seeing anyone else currently or that I am not seeing anyone else at the specific moment she asked me. Now, I may know which one she meant but my answer is technically true under both interpretations.

Further sarcasm is not a lie depending on the definition one uses. A lie is generally a false statement made with the intent to deceive. Sarcasm usually is not intending to deceive someone as it is an ironic statement that the person employing it intends to be seen as ironic. They are not intending the person to actually think it is true.

The same is true for example of hyperbole. The point of it is not for someone to actually believe the statement is true but to emphasis a point so when someone says Hilary is the devil, it's not a lie but hyperbole. Everyone knows Hilary is not actually the devil but the purpose of the statement is to emphasize the distaste the person employing hyperbole has for Hilary.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Except you never intended for that statement to be taken seriously. Just the opposite, your intention was in your sarcasm indicating that no you have no interest in the protein bar.

At any rate, the question is not what is the definition of a lie. It's whether you can deceive someone without telling a lie. That answer is unequivocally, yes.

Take Ares example but flip it. You use a lot of sarcasm on a day to day basis. Co-worker says you want to go to the protein bar for lunch? You say yes, because you actually love it. However, the co-worker misreads your enthusiasm as sarcasm. They go with other co-workers and come back, and you're sitting there wondering what the hell. They explain they thought you were being sarcastic and had no interest in going, but others wanted to go. You've deceived that person while being fully honest.

You haven't deceived that person. That person deceived himself by assuming the person was not being truthful so he, in effect lied to himself, and it's that lie that deceived him.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

There are truths and there are untruths. Anything in between is just made up in your own mind. With Remy's example, of course he lied and attempted to deceive. This is what deception is. It is always based on a lie or concealment of whole truth which is also a lie.

 

[remydat]

The English language is more complocated than you give it credit for. There is no definition of deception that I know of that requires a lie to be told.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception

You've basically come up with your own personal definition of deception and are acting like it is universal. That's your right but then someone can come up with their own personal definition as well and claim it is universal as well. Based on the generally accepted definition of the word deception does not require a lie but feel free to make up your own meanings.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

The English language is more complocated than you give it credit for. There is no definition of deception that I know of that requires a lie to be told.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception

You've basically come up with your own personal definition of deception and are acting like it is universal. That's your right but then someone can come up with their own personal definition as well and claim it is universal as well. Based on the generally accepted definition of the word deception does not require a lie but feel free to make up your own meanings.

*complicated

Tell me, Remy, how you would define deceive? Webster's dictionary defines it as to make someone believe something that is not true. It truly is that simple.

 

[remydat]

You are missing the point. I am saying all lies are a form of deception but not all deception contain lies. Look at the link it notes 4 principal types of deception of which lies is simply one type.

 

[The Hawk]

You are missing the point. I am saying all lies are a form of deception but not all deception contain lies. Look at the link it notes 4 principal types of deception of which lies is simply one type.

I agree with what you said in the above. A lot of deception involves omitting truth involving what you tell someone or phrasing something to lead someone to a false conclusion even though it isn't a lie. The media does this shit all of the time by putting snippets of what someone said together toward an end of deceiver or the viewer. Bill Clinton was/is a master of this stuff, hence the old "it depends of what your definition of IS is"

 

[Warrior Spirit]

You are missing the point. I am saying all lies are a form of deception but not all deception contain lies. Look at the link it notes 4 principal types of deception of which lies is simply one type.

Well, the word deception is synonymous with the word lie so I'd have to say where you have one you have the other as well.

Any time I lie to you, I am deceiving you. Any time I deceive you, I am trying to make you believe something that is untrue or, simply put, a lie.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I agree with what you said in the above. A lot of deception involves omitting truth involving what you tell someone or phrasing something to lead someone to a false conclusion even though it isn't a lie. The media does this shit all of the time by putting snippets of what someone said together toward an end of deceiver or the viewer. Bill Clinton was/is a master of this stuff, hence the old "it depends of what your definition of IS is"

The media lies to you often. Bill Clinton lies more often than most. Knowingly omitting the truth in order to deceive someone is lying, plain and simple.

 

[remydat]

Well, the word deception is synonymous with the word lie so I'd have to say where you have one you have the other as well.

Any time I lie to you, I am deceiving you. Any time I deceive you, I am trying to make you believe something that is untrue or, simply put, a lie.

Again you can come up with you own personal definition but according to the standard definitions a deception does not have to involve a lie.

 

[Shawon0Meter]

I think deception is creating a lie.

If you don't want the wife to know you went to Subway again for lunch so you vaguely say "I had a sandwich", you're creating a lie by putting something untruthful in her mind.

or a car dealership might not tell you straight up "you're getting a great deal" but they'll use a bunch of tactics and terms to make you feel like you are, when in reality, you're still paying too much. That's a lie.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Again you can come up with you own personal definition but according to the standard definitions a deception does not have to involve a lie.

I don't see how when lie and deception are synonymous. You can go to thesaurus.com or any other such web site and I'm certain it will tell you as much.

Webster dictionary defines deceive simply as to make (someone) believe something that is not true (A LIE)
Others would define it similarly and throw in things like To dupe, fool, trick, fraud, cunning, mislead, bluff, hoodwink, falsely persuade etc. All of which comes down to misrepresenting the truth aka LIE.

merriam-webster - to cause to believe what is untrue : MISLEAD

collins dictionary- British English: deception Deception is when someone deliberately makes you believe something that is not true. NOUNHe admitted conspiring to obtain property by deception.

Cambridge Dictionary - a ​statement or ​action that ​hides the ​truth, or the ​act of ​hiding the ​truth:

It does not seem like I'm the one with my own definition. That would be you and these other lowlifes who have a need to re-define what a lie/deception is because, well, lowlife liars don't like to own up to what they are.

 

[brett05]

Interesting posts by all in here. hmmm.

 

[Bearin' Down]

Lets just end this already. From Merriam Webster:

Lie

: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive

Deceive

: to make (someone) believe something that is not true

So, they are closely related as we would all agree. But not the same as a lie requires only an attempt to make one believe the untrue statement and amdeceive requires its successful completion. Also, a lie requires an untrue statement and a deception does not. However, Spartan states they are synonymous and therefore the same thing. I'm sure no one would disagree that they are synonymous. But does synonymous require the same definition?

Synonym

: one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses

Okay, so there you have it. Deceive can be and is synonymous with lie based on having nearly the same meaning in some senses, but it's not exactly the same as described above.

Don't believe me, or the definitions provided? How about a journal article on this very subject from Stanford:

http://Plato.Stanford.edu/entries/lying-definition/#TraDefDec

Finally, here's an example if you don't believe me: you and I are good friends. We are hanging out and I tell you I won that billion dollar lottery. Except you know I didn't leave the state and no winning tickets were sold in the state and all winning tickets were sold on the other side of the country where you know I know no one and I have never been. As a result, you know I'm lying and dont believe it. I've lied to you, but you don't believe me. Therefore, I have not deceived you.

 

[remydat]

Exactly, so as I said to Spartan, the following is an act of deception but it is not a lie because in the below, no untruthful statement was made.

One common form of deception that is not a lie is equivocation where one says something indirectly or that is ambiguous and can be interpreted different ways. My go to example of this is when a girl asks if I am seeing anyone else and my response is "not at the moment" which one can interpret as my saying I am not seeing anyone else currently or that I am not seeing anyone else at the specific moment she asked me. Now, I may know which one she meant but my answer is technically true under both interpretations.

There is no lie in the above. I am not currently seeing someone at the moment. I may be seeing someone after I talk to this girl but my statement is true and hence cannot be a lie. It most certainly is deceiving if I in fact am dating another girl because I can infer from her question what she really meant but it's an ambiguous question and ambiguous answer.

 

[brett05]

So is lie a subset of deceive or the other way around?

 

[remydat]

A lie is a specific form of deception but deception encompasses more than just lies.

And further complicating things is the fact that not all untrue statements are lies. As the above notes, a lie is typically an untrue statement made with intent to deceive.

So as I said above sarcasm is not a lie because while the statement may be untrue, the intent is not to deceive. The intent is for the listener to understand that the person is being ironic as a means to illustrate a point. Similarly, hyperbole is also not a lie because once again the statement while untrue is not meant to deceive. It's meant to emphasize a point by exaggerating. Hence the example of Hillary being called a devil. That is an untrue statement but it is not a lie because it's hyperbole or figurative. No one is suppose to take that statement as the truth but rather it emphasizes the fact that the person that called her a devil thinks she is of questionable moral character.

 

[Ares]

A lie is a specific form of deception but deception encompasses more than just lies.

And further complicating things is the fact that not all untrue statements are lies. As the above notes, a lie is typically an untrue statement made with intent to deceive.

So as I said above sarcasm is not a lie because while the statement may be untrue, the intent is not to deceive. The intent is for the listener to understand that the person is being ironic as a means to illustrate a point. Similarly, hyperbole is also not a lie because once again the statement while untrue is not meant to deceive. It's meant to emphasize a point by exaggerating. Hence the example of Hillary being called a devil. That is an untrue statement but it is not a lie because it's hyperbole or figurative. No one is suppose to take that statement as the truth but rather it emphasizes the fact that the person that called her a devil thinks she is of questionable moral character.

Nah everything in the English language is black and white, its a lie or not a lie.

If you use sarcasm with Sparty he will scream LIAR!!!!!!!! and then cut off your head, carve the word LIAR in your forehead and stake it out front of his house.