Dennis Rodman

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I am not demeaning Horace Grant in my opinion about Rodman by any means. He and Ron Harper were important pieces of those Bulls teams. But they lost them but got a better player than Grant in Rodman and a better player than Harper in Kukoc.

Whoops

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Grant was my favorite Bull of all time.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=1&p1=willija01&p2=rodmade01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

 

[The Hawk]

http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=1&p1=willija01&p2=rodmade01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

What is your point?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

What is your point?

I can't hold your hand.

 

[houheffna]

Jordan and Pippen DID win three titles without him and a guy named Horace Grant. They didn't need Rodman. Jordan had other options in mind besides Rodman when he went on his own recruiting tour to find a competent 4. Jordan and Jackson grew tired of Rodman's antics. He practically stopped playing defense after a while. But if you want to make that argument...Horace, Cartwright, Kukoc...bunch of retired jerseys. Those 6 titles were mainly because of 3 people...



Another example of rubbish on your part. It was Phil Jackson that wanted Rodman and it was he that convinced Reiiny and Krause to trade for him. His reason was that if Chuck Daley could control him, then he(Jackson) and Jordan could control him and they did. That was/is the truth.

As for Rodman not playing defense after awhile, that is ridiculous also. You just don't care for Rodman's antics I'd bet but on the court he was as good a player on defense and rebounding that ever occurred in the NBA.

Phil wanted a rebounder. The Bulls tried to get other players before Rodman because they didn't want the eventual headache. As I stated, Jordan recruited Jayson Williams...told him if he just rebounds the ball, he can get him 2 or 3 rings. Jordan also did some recruiting of Dennis Rodman on the set of Space Jam. But Dennis was not at the top of their list. They got Rodman because he was the best rebounder in the league, they hesitated because he was childish and could destroy a locker room.

The Bulls wanted a rebounder...they didn't need Rodman to win titles. They needed someone to replace Horace Grant, who left the team, and beat the Bulls' asses in the 1995 playoffs. Had they had Horace, no need to get Rodman. Would have been redundant.

Plus, Horace was the third guy on those Bulls teams...both offensively and defensively. As for Rodman's defense...that was one of the reasons he started less than half of the games in the Bulls' postseason in 1998. I know, I went to a few games during that postseason. Namely game 7 of the ECF against the Pacers and Game 3 of the Finals against Utah. Not that he couldn't play...he was so immature, he would spend time sulking and acting like a kid and NOT giving 100% on the court. Jordan disliked Rodman in 1998, didn't care to play with him. That year taxed Jordan so much, that those around the Bulls state it was he who ended that dynasty...not Krause and Reinsdorf. Jordan was fed up. Period.

 

[The Hawk]

Quote Originally Posted by The Hawk View Post

What is your point?

I can't hold your hand.

Humor us Gus. You throw a lot of shit around from that dome of yours. Are you suggesting that somehow Williams was somehow equal to Dennis Rodman in terms of value and ability? Those "stats" you showed are worthless to make your "case". You should know this is you are smart. Oh wiat...... I get it now.....You are not smart

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Did it ever dawn on you that I was agreeing with you?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=rodmade01&p2=willija01

 

[The Hawk]

Phil wanted a rebounder. The Bulls tried to get other players before Rodman because they didn't want the eventual headache. As I stated, Jordan recruited Jayson Williams...told him if he just rebounds the ball, he can get him 2 or 3 rings. Jordan also did some recruiting of Dennis Rodman on the set of Space Jam. But Dennis was not at the top of their list. They got Rodman because he was the best rebounder in the league, they hesitated because he was childish and could destroy a locker room.

The Bulls wanted a rebounder...they didn't need Rodman to win titles. They needed someone to replace Horace Grant, who left the team, and beat the Bulls' asses in the 1995 playoffs. Had they had Horace, no need to get Rodman. Would have been redundant.

Plus, Horace was the third guy on those Bulls teams...both offensively and defensively. As for Rodman's defense...that was one of the reasons he started less than half of the games in the Bulls' postseason in 1998. I know, I went to a few games during that postseason. Namely game 7 of the ECF against the Pacers and Game 3 of the Finals against Utah. Not that he couldn't play...he was so immature, he would spend time sulking and acting like a kid and NOT giving 100% on the court. Jordan disliked Rodman in 1998, didn't care to play with him. That year taxed Jordan so much, that those around the Bulls state it was he who ended that dynasty...not Krause and Reinsdorf. Jordan was fed up. Period.

Rubbish. Phil Jackson made a big time case for bringing in Rodman because he was as you say the best rebounder in the NBA and they need him also to play defense at a high level which he did. You say that he didn't play 100% on the court and that is so not true it is ridiculous. I have really never seen as fierce a rebounder and defender than Rodamn who happens to be in my own top three favorite Bulls of all time (Jordan, Sloan, and Rodman)

Now then you say that Rodman was the cause of Jordan leaving?? I have NEVER heard any mention of that like anywhere EVER. The reason was that Jordan felt disrespected by Krause and wanted to show him up after his "players do not win championships, organization do" and other shit comments. Pippin was pissed also because he felt under-paid and disrespected also. So they left.

As for Jordan hating Rodman, that is true since Jordan and Rodman had a bad history with each other from Rodman's days with the bad boys of Detroit. They got into several skirmishes with each other and Jordan really hated not only Rodman but most of the others on that team.

But they still played together and put aside their bad feelings to win three championships and if Jordan hadn't left, probably at least two more.

 

[The Hawk]

Did it ever dawn on you that I was agreeing with you?

Actually......no. I thought that you were trying to make a case that based on average minutes played Williams was Rodman's equal.

 

[houheffna]

Rubbish. Phil Jackson made a big time case for bringing in Rodman because he was as you say the best rebounder in the NBA and they need him also to play defense at a high level which he did. You say that he didn't play 100% on the court and that is so not true it is ridiculous. I have really never seen as fierce a rebounder and defender than Rodamn who happens to be in my own top three favorite Bulls of all time (Jordan, Sloan, and Rodman)

Now then you say that Rodman was the cause of Jordan leaving?? I have NEVER heard any mention of that like anywhere EVER. The reason was that Jordan felt disrespected by Krause and wanted to show him up after his "players do not win championships, organization do" and other shit comments. Pippin was pissed also because he felt under-paid and disrespected also. So they left.

As for Jordan hating Rodman, that is true since Jordan and Rodman had a bad history with each other from Rodman's days with the bad boys of Detroit. They got into several skirmishes with each other and Jordan really hated not only Rodman but most of the others on that team.

But they still played together and put aside their bad feelings to win three championships and if Jordan hadn't left, probably at least two more.

Its obvious you don't know what you are talking about. If he gave 100% all the time...why is it he started NO GAMES in the 1998 NBA Finals? How about you prove that Harper and Grant were on the team at the same time as you posted earlier. Prove that. I call Rodman a role player because he excelled in rebounding, defense...however, he was an absolute non-factor offensively. I called him a star player also...you fail to recognize that.

Here is an article by Sam Smith, backed by several different journalists in Chicago, that explains what happened.

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1936782,


Also, I never said that Jayson Williams was as good a player as Rodman. I said the Bulls did not need Rodman, Rodman was not at the top of their list, too much bad blood, too high maintenance, too destructive in San Antonio. Jayson Williams would have been good enough for them to win, just as Horace Grant was.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Jayson Williams would have eaten well on the weakside of the triangle offense.

 

[The Hawk]

Its obvious you don't know what you are talking about. If he gave 100% all the time...why is it he started NO GAMES in the 1998 NBA Finals? How about you prove that Harper and Grant were on the team at the same time as you posted earlier. Prove that. I call Rodman a role player because he excelled in rebounding, defense...however, he was an absolute non-factor offensively. I called him a star player also...you fail to recognize that.

Here is an article by Sam Smith, backed by several different journalists in Chicago, that explains what happened.

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1936782,


Also, I never said that Jayson Williams was as good a player as Rodman. I said the Bulls did not need Rodman, Rodman was not at the top of their list, too much bad blood, too high maintenance, too destructive in San Antonio. Jayson Williams would have been good enough for them to win, just as Horace Grant was.

I don't know about how many games Rodman started or didn't start in those play-offs. I know that he played a lot of minutes and was a big time force once again in those play-offs once again and led the league in rebounding that year and in the play-offs. Without him they do not win that play-off series with the Jazz because he did play Karl Malone as well as anyone could do back then. Here are Rodman's all time stats in the NBA seasons since 1979 compared to other players:

Top rebounding seasons since 1979
Season Player Team Rebounds
per game
1991–92 Dennis Rodman* Detroit Pistons 18.7
1992–93 Dennis Rodman* Detroit Pistons 18.3
1993–94 Dennis Rodman* San Antonio Spurs 17.3
1994–95 Dennis Rodman* San Antonio Spurs 16.8
1996–97 Dennis Rodman* Chicago Bulls 16.1
1991–92 Kevin Willis Atlanta Hawks 15.5
2002–03 Ben Wallace Detroit Pistons 15.4
1982–83 Moses Malone* Houston Rockets 15.3
2010–11 Kevin Love^ Minnesota Timberwolves 15.2
1979–80 Swen Nater San Diego Clippers 15.0
1997–98 Dennis Rodman* Chicago Bulls 15.0

YOu also have to recognize the Rodman did lead in rebounding in the play-offs in 1998 by far and played more minutes in that final series than any other Bulls big. Like I said, I didn't go back to each game and see who started and who didn't but I do remember that they put Longley in early for the center jump and to get the offense started. But Rodman was also dominant on the boards and guarded Malone who was the best power forward in the game back then.

I just do not understand how you can call Rodman a "role player". I see "role players" as people who come in for a limited minutes and provide a specific ability as in 3 point specialists. Not a guy who leads the entire league in rebounds and is an 8 time all defensive player in the league. Rodman, also could score when he wanted to but he deferred his off to the other stars and better shooters than he was on those great teams. I think that you just forget how dominant that Rodman really was as a player.

 

[houheffna]

I don't know about how many games Rodman started or didn't start in those play-offs. I know that he played a lot of minutes and was a big time force once again in those play-offs once again and led the league in rebounding that year and in the play-offs. Without him they do not win that play-off series with the Jazz because he did play Karl Malone as well as anyone could do back then. Here are Rodman's all time stats in the NBA seasons since 1979 compared to other players:

Top rebounding seasons since 1979
Season Player Team Rebounds
per game
1991–92 Dennis Rodman* Detroit Pistons 18.7
1992–93 Dennis Rodman* Detroit Pistons 18.3
1993–94 Dennis Rodman* San Antonio Spurs 17.3
1994–95 Dennis Rodman* San Antonio Spurs 16.8
1996–97 Dennis Rodman* Chicago Bulls 16.1
1991–92 Kevin Willis Atlanta Hawks 15.5
2002–03 Ben Wallace Detroit Pistons 15.4
1982–83 Moses Malone* Houston Rockets 15.3
2010–11 Kevin Love^ Minnesota Timberwolves 15.2
1979–80 Swen Nater San Diego Clippers 15.0
1997–98 Dennis Rodman* Chicago Bulls 15.0

YOu also have to recognize the Rodman did lead in rebounding in the play-offs in 1998 by far and played more minutes in that final series than any other Bulls big. Like I said, I didn't go back to each game and see who started and who didn't but I do remember that they put Longley in early for the center jump and to get the offense started. But Rodman was also dominant on the boards and guarded Malone who was the best power forward in the game back then.

I just do not understand how you can call Rodman a "role player". I see "role players" as people who come in for a limited minutes and provide a specific ability as in 3 point specialists. Not a guy who leads the entire league in rebounds and is an 8 time all defensive player in the league. Rodman, also could score when he wanted to but he deferred his off to the other stars and better shooters than he was on those great teams. I think that you just forget how dominant that Rodman really was as a player.

Here is where you don't read the article posted that totally debunks your theories of how the dynasty ended...while needlessly bloviating and NOT checking stats. Until you do, I am done.

 

[JimJohnson]

Weren't the Bulls trying to trade Grant for AC Green at one point? And then Grant got his panties in a twist and started acting like a big baby.

 

[The Hawk]

Weren't the Bulls trying to trade Grant for AC Green at one point? And then Grant got his panties in a twist and started acting like a big baby.

I believe so. Grant wanted more money also somewhere else and a place where he could be considered more of a star. I think that he was disappointed that he didn't get more opportunites for commerials, endorsements, etc. because Jordan pretty much took all of it at the time. If I recall correctly Grant did get one endorsement of somekind of supplement?

 

[The Hawk]

Here is where you don't read the article posted that totally debunks your theories of how the dynasty ended...while needlessly bloviating and NOT checking stats. Until you do, I am done.

I did read Sam Smith's article. FIrst of all, that was one reporter's opinion and a guy who pretty much always favors the Bull's management. But also, there certainly were/are other articles written that disagree with Sam Smith's story. So people can believe what they want to believe. As for your personal insults to me, that just is typical coming from you.

 

[houheffna]

I did read Sam Smith's article. FIrst of all, that was one reporter's opinion and a guy who pretty much always favors the Bull's management. But also, there certainly were/are other articles written that disagree with Sam Smith's story. So people can believe what they want to believe. As for your personal insults to me, that just is typical coming from you.

...and you chose to believe whatever works for you...even if its not true.

As far as them wanting to trade Grant...in the same article it shows Krause wanted to trade Pippen. Don't know what that has to do with how great a player is or isn't or how much they've contributed to the team's success.

Personal? You showed up after a post and called it "baloney" did you not? No facts, just attacked my statements. So I reserve the right to call a post of yours dumb.

 

[The Hawk]

...and you chose to believe whatever works for you...even if its not true.

As far as them wanting to trade Grant...in the same article it shows Krause wanted to trade Pippen. Don't know what that has to do with how great a player is or isn't or how much they've contributed to the team's success.

Personal? You showed up after a post and called it "baloney" did you not? No facts, just attacked my statements. So I reserve the right to call a post of yours dumb.

Baloney, Rubbish, = I disagree. I didn't call you dumb, Special person, a fool, stupid, nuts, or the like. You called Rodman unnecessary for winning a champiionship and being a "role player". I strongly disagree with that and truthfully never heard anyone ever call him a role player. He was the best rebounder and defender in all of basketbal at his position and a HOFer to boot. The Bulls thought so highly of his ability that they brought in another guy(Jack Haley I believe) as his personal babysitter in order to try and keep in out of trouble off of the court.

I've read a lot about Rodman and how hard he worked. Physically he was a freak and never stopped working. I've read about how he analyzed the outside shots of the opposition players and actually figured out where the likely carom off of the rim would go and where he needed to be to get the board. He also practiced how to tap the ball when he was out of position to cleanly get the rebound and sometimes tap it two or three times to get it himself. I have never seen before or since any other player do it like he could.

In every sport there are guys who you hate to play against yet would love to play with because of their effect on the game. Rodman was the KING of them