Derrick Rose is the Bulls problem

[2323]

Who is Rose supposed to dish the ball to that is gonna shoot a whole lot better than him? Kirk? Teams are packing the paint cuz no one is hitting the shot. This falls on Thib's. He's got to put in some shooters for Rose to be able to dish to someone that can actually hit an outside shot. Who is Rose supposed to dish the ball to, I'd like you to explain this to me.

He doesn't set people up. I'm not sure if he can. He's looking to create for himself a lot and by the time he realizes there's no shot for himself, he's in too deep or at a bad spot where it's hard to deliver a quality pass. The other issue I see is that he chews up a lot of the shot clock probing the defense only to end up like I just mentioned.

The Bulls need more ball movement and not this AAU stuff from Rose. Without the ball movement guys don't get In the flow if the offense. This is a problem with Rose. He's not making others better. You're penalizing others for a problem that Rose has a big hand in causing.

 

[Axl Rose]

I predicted all of this over two years ago. Sadly, things will have to play out over the next two years before Bulls nation is ready to embrace change.


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by then nobody will have value and we'll get nothing but a bag of stale cheetos

 

[Bear Pride]

He doesn't set people up. I'm not sure if he can. He's looking to create for himself a lot and by the time he realizes there's no shot for himself, he's in too deep or at a bad spot where it's hard to deliver a quality pass. The other issue I see is that he chews up a lot of the shot clock probing the defense only to end up like I just mentioned.

The Bulls need more ball movement and not this AAU stuff from Rose. Without the ball movement guys don't get In the flow if the offense. This is a problem with Rose. He's not making others better. You're penalizing others for a problem that Rose has a big hand in causing.

Just how is supposed to set people up better? Legit question. Rose has actually played well at times with Pau. I'd like to see that two man game a little more, but who else is he supposed to set up. He's usually got Jimmy and Kirk as his outside shooters, and Pau and Noah as his bigs. Both Jimmy and Rose are slashers and Pau and Noah are struggling to be each others way. How is Rose supposed to drive a packed lane and set these guys up better? This a lot of the problem, imo.

 

[Axl Rose]

He did have a stretch not too long ago that he was shooting 58% from the 3 with a good amount of attempts. You can't blame him when things are down and not acknowledge when he's doing well.

yeah and i don't mind him taking 3's but he needs to know when to stop

when you're 0-5 dont run down the court and pull up a quick 3

 

[2323]

yeah and i don't mind him taking 3's but he needs to know when to stop

when you're 0-5 dont run down the court and pull up a quick 3

Like just there? The numbers didn't support it and he ran all of 4 seconds off the clock.

 

[Bear Pride]

Like just there? The numbers didn't support it and he ran all of 4 seconds off the clock.

Rose is the only one bringing some offense tonight, you're nuts to single that play out.

 

[2323]

Just how is supposed to set people up better? Legit question. Rose has actually played well at times with Pau. I'd like to see that two man game a little more, but who else is he supposed to set up. He's usually got Jimmy and Kirk as his outside shooters, and Pau and Noah as his bigs. Both Jimmy and Rose are slashers and Pau and Noah are struggling to be each others way. How is Rose supposed to drive a packed lane and set these guys up better? This a lot of the problem, imo.

Phoenix isn't exactly packing the lane. I think you're overstating this. It may seem packed because the defense is always going to have some focus on the PG since he often has the ball. This is one of the reasons it's problematic to have a score first PG. And for this reason, the defense can better anticipate what the PG is going to do since he has the defenses focus to a large extent. The 90s Bulls used to play off of this in beating zone defenses (effectively, yes the played zone defenses even with illegal defense violations). Since the defense is focused on the PG, it allowed Jordan et al to run he baseline behind the defenders and find the soft spot in the zone. It was simple but tremendously effective. For the same reason this method was effective, the PG is also easier to close off. They could use Butler to find the soft spot and have him post up.

In general, I'd like to see Butler posting up inside more with Noah and Gasol up high. I think getting Butler at a spot on the floor where he can receive a pass in a spot where he can use his size/athleticism or shoot free throws is a more sustainable and consistent way to get points. I think it would be far more efficient. It would minimize their reliance on Roses athleticism which would probably be a good thing.

I also think the offense should run through Noah or Gasol at the elbow more. The scenario I described with Butler could work with this.

It would be better to let Rose move without the ball and not rely on his athleticism or faulty jump shooting to get points consistently. Him trying to get past 3 levels of defenders makes things harder than they need to be and then there's also the wear and tear.

I think the ball moves around better when the offense runs through someone else. And functioning this way would also probably get more easy points for Rose too since the focus of the entire defense wouldn't be on him

What this is right now is one guy playing AAU ball with a lot guys who are actually skilled but who are optimized with ball movement.

 

[Bear Pride]

Phoenix isn't exactly packing the lane. I think you're overstating this. It may seem packed because the defense is always going to have some focus on the PG since he often has the ball. This is one of the reasons it's problematic to have a score first PG. And for this reason, the defense can better anticipate what the PG is going to do since he has the defenses focus to a large extent. The 90s Bulls used to play off of this in beating zone defenses (effectively, yes the played zone defenses even with illegal defense violations). Since the defense is focused on the PG, it allowed Jordan et al to run he baseline behind the defenders and find the soft spot in the zone. It was simple but tremendously effective. For the same reason this method was effective, the PG is also easier to close off. They could use Butler to find the soft spot and have him post up.

In general, I'd like to see Butler posting up inside more with Noah and Gasol up high. I think getting Butler at a spot on the floor where he can receive a pass in a spot where he can use his size/athleticism or shoot free throws is a more sustainable and consistent way to get points. I think it would be far more efficient. It would minimize their reliance on Roses athleticism which would probably be a good thing.

I also think the offense should run through Noah or Gasol at the elbow more. The scenario I described with Butler could work with this.

It would be better to let Rose move without the ball and not rely on his athleticism or faulty jump shooting to get points consistently. Him trying to get past 3 levels of defenders makes things harder than they need to be and then there's also the wear and tear.

I think the ball moves around better when the offense runs through someone else. And functioning this way would also probably get more easy points for Rose too since the focus of the entire defense wouldn't be on him

What this is right now is one guy playing AAU ball with a lot guys who are actually skilled but who are optimized with ball movement.

The 90's Bulls had MJ, Pip, and even Tony that could handle the ball. They also always had Pax, Kerr, Hodges, etc, who could drill the 3. They would always have a deep threat in the game. This would allow them to do some of the things you are saying. MJ could always drive and find someone that can hit the shot. Rose doesn't have this Luxury.

MJ, Pip, and Pax would drill the 3 if the other team played zone. I don't ever remember Cartwright, Perdue, or any big starting the offense from the 3 pt line, or even the elbow for that matter.

If Thib's is going to handle the offense through Rose, why does he have his big men play outside. It doesn't make sense. When Rose drives, he should have bigs crashing the boards and 3 pt shooters waiting for the dish. He doesn't have this.

 

[2323]

And yet another game of Rose shooting a little over 33% while also taking the most shots. On one hand he was 8/17 excluding the 3s but on the flip side, why was he shooting 6 threes. He was 0/6. And Noah led the team in assists with 5.

I thought Butler played well but he was also only 1/6 from 3.

 

[Bear Pride]

And yet another game of Rose shooting a little over 33% while also taking the most shots. On one hand he was 8/17 excluding the 3s but on the flip side, why was he shooting 6 threes. He was 0/6. And Noah led the team in assists with 5.

I thought Butler played well but he was also only 1/6 from 3.

:smh:

Pau was 5-15 and 0-5 from the FT line/
Butler was 8-18 from from 2 and 1-6 from 3.
Kirk was 1-4 from 2.
Noah was 3-8 from 2.
Bulls were 17-27 from the FT line, but Rose was 7-9.
Rose led the team with 23 points.
Mirotic only 8 minutes.
McD again with 0 minutes.

Your Rose hate is pathetic! It's fuckin Thib's that is the problem!

 

[2323]

:smh:

Pau was 5-15 and 0-5 from the FT line/
Butler was 8-18 from from 2 and 1-6 from 3.
Kirk was 1-4 from 2.
Noah was 3-8 from 2.
Bulls were 17-27 from the FT line, but Rose was 7-9.
Rose led the team with 23 points.
Mirotic only 8 minutes.
McD again with 0 minutes.

Your Rose hate is pathetic! It's fuckin Thib's that is the problem!

Butler was 8/18 overall. How many assists did Rose have? And you ignored how Rose led in scoring because he, once again, was a high volume scorer. But at least this time, it wouldn't have been so bad except for him 0fering on 3s. Why the 6 attempts?

 

[Bear Pride]

Butler was 8/18 overall.

OK.....

STARTERS	MIN	FGM-A	3PM-A	FTM-A	OREB	DREB	REB	AST	STL	BLK	TO	PF	+/-	PTS

Derrick Rose, PG	36	8-23	0-6	7-9	2	3	5	3	0	0	3	2	+15	23
Jimmy Butler, SG	42	8-18	1-6	5-8	0	7	7	4	2	0	2	2	+9	22

 

[2323]

1*3=3
7*2=14
5*1=5
3+14+5=22

 

[Bear Pride]

1*3=3
7*2=14
5*1=5
3+14+5=22

This all means that E = MC squared ....

Gravity, or being tired, will be the downfall of this team.....AGAIN!

 

[MrDerp]

The 90's Bulls had MJ, Pip, and even Tony that could handle the ball. They also always had Pax, Kerr, Hodges, etc, who could drill the 3. They would always have a deep threat in the game. This would allow them to do some of the things you are saying. MJ could always drive and find someone that can hit the shot. Rose doesn't have this Luxury.

MJ, Pip, and Pax would drill the 3 if the other team played zone. I don't ever remember Cartwright, Perdue, or any big starting the offense from the 3 pt line, or even the elbow for that matter.

If Thib's is going to handle the offense through Rose, why does he have his big men play outside. It doesn't make sense. When Rose drives, he should have bigs crashing the boards and 3 pt shooters waiting for the dish. He doesn't have this.

They couldn't play zone until 2001, if my mind remembers correctly. Plus, you are talking about Phil's system compared to Thibs, totally different.The problem Rose is having and the rest of the team is that McDermott was injured and shooting like crap, and Dunleavy has been out. It isn't a big mystery. Rose does need to be more efficient in his game, but given the fact this is the most basketball he has played in almost 3 years, I am happy he is just healthy at this point. I will judge Rose's play after the all-star game.

 

[2323]

They couldn't play zone until 2001, if my mind remembers correctly. Plus, you are talking about Phil's system compared to Thibs, totally different.The problem Rose is having and the rest of the team is that McDermott was injured and shooting like crap, and Dunleavy has been out. It isn't a big mystery. Rose does need to be more efficient in his game, but given the fact this is the most basketball he has played in almost 3 years, I am happy he is just healthy at this point. I will judge Rose's play after the all-star game.

Effectively, they played zone. Between sagging off their man,switches, and double teams, effectively, there was a lot of zone being played. I think they changed that around the same time the cracked down on handchecking to open up scoring for perimeter players around 2004/2005.

 

[PolarBear]

R-E-L-A-X on Rose. He is in a slump and he will continue to get better as he gets adjusted to full games now. As far as assists go, I really couldn't care less about a statistic like that which can be misleading at times when it comes to running an offense but there are problems with the offensive flow. Some of that is Rose, some of that has been due to injuries and Thibs refusing to play Dougie/decreasing Mirotic's minutes hasn't really helped floor spacing. I think Butler has struggled with the lack of spacing from Dunleavy, Mirotic and Dougie as well (shooting down to 41% this month).

Does Rose need to play better? Yep. Does the rest of the team also need to play better? Yep. Does Thibs need to coach/manage his players better? Definitely.

This is a team problem.

 

[vinson555]

I sort of agree with this topic, but for a different reason and I'll will go back to what i say (not here but in life.) He's not a PG. He is the same as Ben Gordon but in many different ways. He has a PG body, but an SG mind set, just WAS more dynamic as a scorer overall and a better defender. He has to a major degree, lost his scoring skill, and he may may not ever get that back.

Let me back track, the MAIN reason I compare him to Ben Gordon is not for his skill, because Rose is a better player then Gordon was even in his prime, but his scoring now, is about as good as Gordon in his best days. It was for his size and what it says he SHOULD be playing rather then what he is playing as.

It was okay in his MVP season because other then Boozer, what other scoring options did this team have. Korver wasn't this good and Deng could only be a good play with better talent around him.

And since there is not true point guard in the starting lineup, it's very hard to run an offence every night through the point guard needing the most shots.

 

[ChiSoxCity]

Who is Rose supposed to dish the ball to that is gonna shoot a whole lot better than him? Kirk? Teams are packing the paint cuz no one is hitting the shot. This falls on Thib's. He's got to put in some shooters for Rose to be able to dish to someone that can actually hit an outside shot. Who is Rose supposed to dish the ball to, I'd like you to explain this to me.

Gasol, Butler, Brooks and Mirotic are all better shooters than Rose. He can and should be providing them with assists as much as possible.


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[JosMin]

Rose is one of of many problems. His play, whatever issues keep lingering between Thibs and the FO, ownership putting up with the status quo, inability to find the right lineups, injuries, Butler coming back to Earth, Noah playing like, uh.... garbage, Gibson playing at 75% of where he was last year, the horrible 45 second Pau isolation on the elbow plays that never develop.....

This season is reminding me what the Bears went through, and I'm not liking it. Never thought I'd be this disappointed about a team that's 11 games over .500. Despite all these problems we'll still likely finish in the top half of the East. We still have times to figure things out but I'll reserve judgement until it does (or doesn't).