Derrick Rose is the Bulls problem

[2323]

Rose is one of of many problems. His play, whatever issues keep lingering between Thibs and the FO, ownership putting up with the status quo, inability to find the right lineups, injuries, Butler coming back to Earth, Noah playing like, uh.... garbage, Gibson playing at 75% of where he was last year, the horrible 45 second Pau isolation on the elbow plays that never develop.....

This season is reminding me what the Bears went through, and I'm not liking it. Never thought I'd be this disappointed about a team that's 11 games over .500. Despite all these problems we'll still likely finish in the top half of the East. We still have times to figure things out but I'll reserve judgement until it does (or doesn't).

Is Butler really coming back to earth or is there a relationship between a drop off and Rose playing more and also playing the way he does?

Because Rose looks to drive so much, it relegates Butler to do more perimeter shooting. He's decent from outside but where he really has enormous value to the Bulls is scoring in the paint and/or at the line. This is more efficient scoring and more sustainable than Rose dominating the ball looking to create for himself and routinely shooting 35%.

 

[2323]

I sort of agree with this topic, but for a different reason and I'll will go back to what i say (not here but in life.) He's not a PG. He is the same as Ben Gordon but in many different ways. He has a PG body, but an SG mind set, just WAS more dynamic as a scorer overall and a better defender. He has to a major degree, lost his scoring skill, and he may may not ever get that back.

Let me back track, the MAIN reason I compare him to Ben Gordon is not for his skill, because Rose is a better player then Gordon was even in his prime, but his scoring now, is about as good as Gordon in his best days. It was for his size and what it says he SHOULD be playing rather then what he is playing as.

It was okay in his MVP season because other then Boozer, what other scoring options did this team have. Korver wasn't this good and Deng could only be a good play with better talent around him.

And since there is not true point guard in the starting lineup, it's very hard to run an offence every night through the point guard needing the most shots.

Do you think Rose is capable of acting more like a true point guard? Do you think he's too stubborn to adapt his style of play or that he's too dumb to recognize he needs to?

 

[Bear Pride]

They couldn't play zone until 2001, if my mind remembers correctly. Plus, you are talking about Phil's system compared to Thibs, totally different.The problem Rose is having and the rest of the team is that McDermott was injured and shooting like crap, and Dunleavy has been out. It isn't a big mystery. Rose does need to be more efficient in his game, but given the fact this is the most basketball he has played in almost 3 years, I am happy he is just healthy at this point. I will judge Rose's play after the all-star game.

You realize that we had the same point and I was responding to 2323, right? :dunno:

 

[Bear Pride]

Gasol, Butler, Brooks and Mirotic are all better shooters than Rose. He can and should be providing them with assists as much as possible.


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Well, one of my points is that Rose rarely plays with Niko or Brooks. How the heck is he supposed to dish the ball to them on the bench? :dunno:This is what I've been calling for, for Thib's to play the proper lineups for these things to happen.

 

[Bear Pride]

Rose is one of of many problems. His play, whatever issues keep lingering between Thibs and the FO, ownership putting up with the status quo, inability to find the right lineups, injuries, Butler coming back to Earth, Noah playing like, uh.... garbage, Gibson playing at 75% of where he was last year, the horrible 45 second Pau isolation on the elbow plays that never develop.....

This season is reminding me what the Bears went through, and I'm not liking it. Never thought I'd be this disappointed about a team that's 11 games over .500. Despite all these problems we'll still likely finish in the top half of the East. We still have times to figure things out but I'll reserve judgement until it does (or doesn't).

Exactly, no one could pinpoint what was going on with the Bears either. It's disgustingly similar to that. The Bears turned out to be a leadership problem and all the coaches went packing. There is definitely a disconnect going on between management, the coaches, and the players.

The only thing I really disagree with is Rose. I think it should be expected that he'll struggle a little after two major knee surgeries and 2 years missed. He'll likely hit the wall this season endurance wise.

Thib's should be monitoring this. He was just cleared to play major minutes and Thib's instantly plays him two consecutive 40+ minute games. That's on Thib's, not Rose.

 

[ChiSoxCity]

Well, one of my points is that Rose rarely plays with Niko or Brooks. How the heck is he supposed to dish the ball to them on the bench? :dunno:This is what I've been calling for, for Thib's to play the proper lineups for these things to happen.

The point is, Rose is killing the team with the early 3s. Not only is he a below average shooter, he's also negating the offensive abilities of his teammates, and fucking up team cohesion due to trust issues. If the Bulls don't trust each other, they're doomed. All point guards know this.

Rose should be driving to the hoop and dishing it out when defenders collapse on him. Most of the time when that happens, you see Rose force up some ugly half-ass shot, then cry and pout about not getting a whistle.


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[Axl Rose]

or is Pau thats the problem?

http://www.blogabull.com/2015/1/31/7956711/signing-pau-gasol-was-a-mistake#comments

hes saying some stuff ive said on here before

although i think he might be going a bit far by trying to shove all the blame on Gasol

but he is a flawed player and thibs could probably utilize him better regardless of the all-star bid

 

[The Hawk]

Is Butler really coming back to earth or is there a relationship between a drop off and Rose playing more and also playing the way he does?

Because Rose looks to drive so much, it relegates Butler to do more perimeter shooting. He's decent from outside but where he really has enormous value to the Bulls is scoring in the paint and/or at the line. This is more efficient scoring and more sustainable than Rose dominating the ball looking to create for himself and routinely shooting 35%.

I agree with all of that.

 

[NCChiFan]

I don't know what to make of D. Rose... I completely see both sides... For sure he hasn't returned to the MVP level pre injury 1 AND half of me feels like, he is still trying to get his wits about him after sitting out two seasons... A lot of things need to return... Stamina... The feel of playing... Confidence... New teammates... different style of teammates...

I don't think he's "feeling" it yet.

Almost as if he is a rookie all over again... but less willing to give up his body to push the ball inside. Almost a, "this hurts to much to go inside, I better learn to shoot 3's like now."

 

[ChiSoxCity]

I don't know what to make of D. Rose... I completely see both sides... For sure he hasn't returned to the MVP level pre injury 1 AND half of me feels like, he is still trying to get his wits about him after sitting out two seasons... A lot of things need to return... Stamina... The feel of playing... Confidence... New teammates... different style of teammates...

I don't think he's "feeling" it yet.

Almost as if he is a rookie all over again... but less willing to give up his body to push the ball inside. Almost a, "this hurts to much to go inside, I better learn to shoot 3's like now."

To me, Rose is a slightly older, slower version of the MVP Rose. Other than that, he's the same guy. He is still a poor shooter who must get to the basket to be effective. He stil doesn't make his teammates better by passing the ball when the defense collapses on him in the paint. He is still a mediocre to poor defensive player with alligator arms (not many steals to speak of). He's still basically a PG with a SG mentality. Yep, same dude.

 

[1ke]

To me, Rose is a slightly older, slower version of the MVP Rose. Other than that, he's the same guy. He is still a poor shooter who must get to the basket to be effective. He stil doesn't make his teammates better by passing the ball when the defense collapses on him in the paint. He is still a mediocre to poor defensive player with alligator arms (not many steals to speak of). He's still basically a PG with a SG mentality. Yep, same dude.

Same guy true. Not mentally healthy yet either. And also, he had learned to not care about the regular season. Come post season, he will be better I think.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Should've drafted Beasley.

Because then we'd have someone else by now :elephant:

:derbulls:

 

[The Hawk]

Roses inconsistency is part of the problem but that's only a fraction of it.

Absolutely. All players go into slumps, especially ones coming off two severe injuries like he has. The problems of this go way beyond Rose. The parts do not fit.

 

[2323]

The point is, Rose is killing the team with the early 3s. Not only is he a below average shooter, he's also negating the offensive abilities of his teammates, and fucking up team cohesion due to trust issues. If the Bulls don't trust each other, they're doomed. All point guards know this.

Rose should be driving to the hoop and dishing it out when defenders collapse on him. Most of the time when that happens, you see Rose force up some ugly half-ass shot, then cry and pout about not getting a whistle.


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Even when Rose kicks it out, he has to put so much lift on it, the defense can rotate to the shooter. He has usually waited too long because he's really intent on shootings it himself. And by waiting too long looking for his own, the passing angles suck so he either has to put too much loft on himself since he's in too deep and the defense has choked off his pass options and then other times his body isn't positioned to make a clean, crisp past and he has to slightly contort his body to kick it out.

This to me is a tell tale sign he's being selfish. He doesn't deliver a pass when guys are open. He's basically (not literally) only kicking it out when he recognizes there's nothing for himself, which is often too late.

 

[2323]

Absolutely. All players go into slumps, especially ones coming off two severe injuries like he has. The problems of this go way beyond Rose. The parts do not fit.

But, how is he slumping? How much of its his shots aren't falling and how much of it he has a style of play that's defective for this team? Are we simply hoping that he's on a good streak when he's in the playoffs or are we hoping he modifies his game to make others better, in which case they would be less reliant on his shots falling?

I think this attempt to put a bow on the topic by saying it's one of many problems is lazy analysis and an easy way out. It's lazy analysis. It indicates a refusal to acknowledge how significant this problem is. The Bulls have a huge problem with Rose. It's the biggest problem that exists.

 

[Axl Rose]

Should've drafted Beasley.

Because then we'd have someone else by now :elephant:

:derbulls:

yup we wouldve sucked longer and ended up with

2009 - Stephen Curry
2010 - Paul George
2011 - Klay Thompson
2012 - Anthony Davis

PG - Stephen Curry
SG - Klay Thompson
SF - Paul George
PF - Anthony Davis
C - Joakim Noah


damn you Derrick

:derbulls:

 

[clonetrooper264]

they should have kept Aldridge would changed everything we would hve sucked for a longer time and ended up with

2008 - DJ Agustin
2009 - Stephen Curry
2010 - Paul George
2011 - Klay Thomson
2012 - Anthony Davis

PG - Stephon Curry
SG - Klay Thompson
SF - Paul George
PF - LaMarcus Aldridge
C - Anthony Davis

DANGIT GARPAX! HOW COULD THEY NOT FORESEE!

 

[The Hawk]

Do you think Rose is capable of acting more like a true point guard? Do you think he's too stubborn to adapt his style of play or that he's too dumb to recognize he needs to?

Rose can't act as a point guard because he isn't one. He is a scoring guard ala Allen Iverson, Isaih, etc. Can he set up people? Sure. But his instinct is to score and that it is what he's been doing since he was probably 7 or 8 years old.

What is going on is not Rose's fault as far as I am concerned. Other than not playing much defense that is and that could be pointed at other guys at well. The reason that the Bulls aren't playing well, I believe, is that they do not have the right mix of players and really haven't had since the start of the season. They do not have one single guard or wing player that is a play-maker who can set the others up.

2nd, They do not have a shooting guard or SF who can take pressure off of Rose via a consistent outside shot and ability to make a big shot.

Those are the two big problems that will prevent this team from advancing. They just do not have the right stuff.

 

[clonetrooper264]

They do not have one single guard or wing player that is a play-maker who can set the others up.

Brooks can't set others up?

2nd, They do not have a shooting guard or SF who can take pressure off of Rose via a consistent outside shot and ability to make a big shot.

Those are the two big problems that will prevent this team from advancing. They just do not have the right stuff.

Dunleavy doesn't have a consistent outside shot? Butler can't make big shots?

 

[The Hawk]

Brooks can't set others up?

He's a shoot first guard also is he not? Is he a true point guard?

Dunleavy doesn't have a consistent outside shot?

When has he played? How well did he play before he got hurt? Is he an NBA quality starting SF?

As for Butler, I don't think that he plays well off of Rose. They'd be better off with a real shooting guard AND HIM.