Derrick Rose: Youngest MVP Ever!

[houheffna]

As far as who is in the MVP race, that is a matter of opinion. As for Rose's season statistically, compared to other MVPs, it would be inferior to them, historically so. Howard would be eliminated because over the past 30 years, other players with great seasons were overlooked if they were not a high seed in their conference. Jordan and Kobe are prime examples of that.

As far as some dude coming on to the forum for the first time and bashing me....people can say what they want, but the argument was not whether Lebron was MVP at this point, it was what I said weeks ago. It doesn't make much of a man for someone to come in and pile on and then call Lebron my "lover boy" when in essence, all of this criticism is coming from a bunch of scorned lovers who wanted Lebron in Chicago. Showing up on a forum with a popular opinion to bash the so-called "bad guy" is very silly to me. But who cares? If your initial opinion on a new forum is to hurl insults to gain approval, have at it.

If I had said the same thing about Rose, wouldn't have been this much vitriol. I didn't know I had to hate Lebron to be a Bulls fan...I don't hate Lebron, I think he is a great player, nor do I hate Rose, on this forum I have been positive about opposing players because that is my choice. I have been called biased towards Kobe, biased towards Lebron, hell, biased towards Hinrich. I really don't care. I don't cower to popular opinion and never will.

And PLEASE quit acting as if being Rose's loverboy as opposed to Lebron's is such a great choice. I have been critical of both, Lebron more than Rose. And I am unapologetic about that. People don't want to be impartial in their thinking...don't be...I choose to be.

 

[Gunzaan]

Wow, very defensive. Perhaps my first post was on this forum, but I am going to contribute on the Bears, Sox, Cubs, Bulls and Blackhawks forum.
Let's look at your last post and see where you went wrong:

- Comparing Rose's stats to other MVPs. How is Rose's stats inferior to other MVPs? If he finishes as he is right now, only 4 other people have done what he has done. All 4 of the others will be Hall of Famers. And yes, LBJ was one of them, but again, not this year. Especially since your only quantifier for that absurd statement is that others weren't a high seed. The Bulls are #1.

- Your second paragraph. Yup, I'm new and am piling on. What does that say? That your blind love for LBJ inspired me to start posting. Congrats. And guess what? This guy never wanted LBJ on the Bulls. Why? Leadership. He doesn't have it.

- Regardless of what you might think, I don't hate LBJ. He is the best pure talent, athletically speaking, in the league. That doesn't mean squat when it comes to an MVP aware. Your characteristics for an MVP award winner need to be reviewed.

- Please, please, please, stop portraying yourself as a martyr. You pretend to say Rose is good, but it's all a facade. You don't respect Rose's ability to take over the end of the game, nor his leadership skills. In NONE of your posts over this long thread have you ever actually compared Rose's leadership and finishing skills as compared to Lebron's. And before you talk about how you briefly said no one ever questions Lebron's leadership skills in two posts earlier, make sure you also respond to my comments in my first post, where I talked about how LBJ has very little leadership skills, as evident in LBJ quitting on his team last year in the middle of the playoffs. Thanks!

Stop pretending you are impartial because you sometimes say that Rose is good. I can say LBJ is great and it means the same thing.

 

[Gunzaan]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add something for you to reply to:

As you are replying to my comments about LBJ being a horrible leader, as shown in the playoffs last year where he completely quit on his team, could you please explain to me how Howard's and Rose's HISTORIC stats this regular season, as explained in my first post, don't stack up against the best seasons of all time.

Saying that other MVP's have better stats doesn't work. We are talking about this season. Saying conference seeding has a huge effect doesn't help your case at all, considering that the Bulls are in front of the Heat and the Heat are only 1 seed ahead of the Magic.

Start answering ALL of the questions asked of you, instead of picking and choosing which questions you have answers for and ignoring those that you don't. You have avoided sooooooo many questions and counter-points in this thread it is ridiculous.

 

[Gunzaan]

And finally, am I in no way saying D. Rose is a better basketball player than LBJ. Nonetheless, D. Rose is having a much better MVP season in this 2010-2011 season then LBJ. Dwight Howard is also having a better MVP season this year then LBJ.

I am also very objective, as you self-proclaim you are. As of now, I would have the Bulls losing to the Heat in the Conference Finals.

 

[houheffna]

Wow, very defensive. Perhaps my first post was on this forum, but I am going to contribute on the Bears, Sox, Cubs, Bulls and Blackhawks forum.
Let's look at your last post and see where you went wrong:

- Comparing Rose's stats to other MVPs. How is Rose's stats inferior to other MVPs? If he finishes as he is right now, only 4 other people have done what he has done. All 4 of the others will be Hall of Famers. And yes, LBJ was one of them, but again, not this year. Especially since your only quantifier for that absurd statement is that others weren't a high seed. The Bulls are #1.

- Your second paragraph. Yup, I'm new and am piling on. What does that say? That your blind love for LBJ inspired me to start posting. Congrats. And guess what? This guy never wanted LBJ on the Bulls. Why? Leadership. He doesn't have it.

- Regardless of what you might think, I don't hate LBJ. He is the best pure talent, athletically speaking, in the league. That doesn't mean squat when it comes to an MVP aware. Your characteristics for an MVP award winner need to be reviewed.

- Please, please, please, stop portraying yourself as a martyr. You pretend to say Rose is good, but it's all a facade. You don't respect Rose's ability to take over the end of the game, nor his leadership skills. In NONE of your posts over this long thread have you ever actually compared Rose's leadership and finishing skills as compared to Lebron's. And before you talk about how you briefly said no one ever questions Lebron's leadership skills in two posts earlier, make sure you also respond to my comments in my first post, where I talked about how LBJ has very little leadership skills, as evident in LBJ quitting on his team last year in the middle of the playoffs. Thanks!

Stop pretending you are impartial because you sometimes say that Rose is good. I can say LBJ is great and it means the same thing.

You have been on here for what 5 minutes? And you telling me how I feel about players? Are you serious? You don't know me, you don't know what I have said over almost 4000 posts and tell me what I am pretending to do? Who died and made you Dr. Phil?

I talked about the whole Lebron/Celts situation WHEN IT HAPPENED!!! And a vast majority of the people that posted did not care because they wanted him here. I talked about the Delonte West stuff, all of that. But you don't see me online arguing with others who summarily discount Rose as a candidate and make very credible reasons, yet I argue with them over it, because I have NEVER said that Rose wasn't a viable candidate for MVP.

My "blind love" for Lebron is no better or worse than anybody else's blind love for whoever. I think Lebron is a great player...and I root for him to lose every game, just as I did last year and the year before. My loyalties to whatever team does not have anything to do with what I think about any particular player. I like two teams, the Bulls and the Rockets. Other teams I root for for varying reasons. I have never rooted for the Cavs or the Heat. I am not a big Wade fan, but I think he is a hell of a player and would have loved him on the Bulls for obvious reasons.

I said the same about Lebron that I said about Pippen, he quit, though Pip's incident was more blatant. Yet, he gets standing ovations every time he is introduced at the United Center. And as I have said, Pip is one of my favorite players, but I was very critical of some of his decision making. I have been critical of Jordan, Pippen, Rose and other players across the league, but I REFUSED to debase a player's standing in the league as a player, based on my personal feelings.

If others feel that they have to show blind allegiance to a player, or hatred to another player, based on what uniform he wears or for whatever reason, that their business! I feel the way that I do because I have seen players of my favorite teams treated impartially...Jordan, Frank Thomas, Jay Cutler, Phil Jackson...its the way sports is...doesn't keep me from speaking my mind about it.

 

[Gunzaan]

Actually, I have been reading yours and others opinions for over a year.

Congrats, you talked about Lebron quiting against the Celtics last year. Does that mean you completely forgot about it and suddenly he has amazing leadership skills on the Heat? During this season, what has Lebron done to show you that he has dramatically improved his very POOR leadership skills while he played on the Cavs?

Actually, nevermind, I shouldn't be asking you so many questions. You don't answer ANY of the important questions that people ask you. You skate around, answering only the questions that you think you have answers for.

Can you please answer the questions asked of you throughout this 20+ page thread? Let's start with some basics:

- What has LBJ done to improve his leadership skills, compared to his piss-poor leadership skills shown while on the Cavs? (which you obviously agreed to by your posts last year about the Cavs-Celtics series last year)

- You seem to be VERY statistics-oriented. Please, defend LBJ's stats against Rose's and Howard's this year. I detailed both Rose's and Howard's historic stats in that first post. Only 4 players have done what Rose has done this year. Only 3 players have done what Howard has done. Please, defend those stats.

- You refer to history as screwing some people out of MVP's in the past. You use conference record and NBA politics as some examples of people who have won it that don't have the best stats. If you are completely un-biased, as you claim, then you rationally would see that conference record and politics plays into Rose's favor.

Yes, I am a new poster. No, I have actually read your posts for a little bit here. Yes, I am guilty of finding you to be an elitist poster. You aren't unique, I have seen it on many, many, many forums. You have your place because you do know the game and you have something to contribute to a forum community, but please get over yourself (no wait, that won't happen). I guess all I can tell you is to expect people to get pissed at you. You can pretend it is because you are a superior basketball mind or because you are great in arguments but quite honestly, you bully people who are less informed about the NBA and you blatantly ignore credible points argued by real fans.

Prediction: You will comment on the last paragraph of this post and ignore all of the real questions I posed to you over my last 5-6 posts in this thread.

 

[houheffna]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add something for you to reply to:

As you are replying to my comments about LBJ being a horrible leader, as shown in the playoffs last year where he completely quit on his team, could you please explain to me how Howard's and Rose's HISTORIC stats this regular season, as explained in my first post, don't stack up against the best seasons of all time.

Saying that other MVP's have better stats doesn't work. We are talking about this season. Saying conference seeding has a huge effect doesn't help your case at all, considering that the Bulls are in front of the Heat and the Heat are only 1 seed ahead of the Magic.

Start answering ALL of the questions asked of you, instead of picking and choosing which questions you have answers for and ignoring those that you don't. You have avoided sooooooo many questions and counter-points in this thread it is ridiculous.

I have answered questions, the answers are not what people want, but I don't care....

Its not about who is in front of who. Jordan won MVP with the 3rd seeded team in the East. Granted, Moses Malone and Kareem won with inferior teams in the 1970's but that hasn't happened in the last 30 years, if it has happened its only been once or twice. I am looking at it from a historical perspective. Jordan scored 37ppg and didn't win MVP...because his team didn't do as well. I remember being upset that Magic won over him, but that is the precedent that was set. Jordan's team wasn't good enough. It happened to Kobe too, he was worth a lot to his team, wasn't worthy of MVP. I thought Kobe was robbed, but at the end of the day...his team didn't measure up. It could just be perception. Nobody views Orlando as a contender, so Howard is not a serious candidate. THAT is why I took him off the board personally, he definitely deserves attention based on individual accolades.

Truth is nobody is voting for Rose because of his stats, his stats are inferior to other players contenders, Howard, Lebron and Kobe. It is the intangibles that people are looking at. As far as comparing Rose's season to Oscar Robertson or Jordan, those players did their damage at a much higher rate of efficiency. Which is one of the biggest complaints against Rose, his fg% has dropped quite a bit from his previous 2 seasons. Whatever statistical reference you want to use, whether its the raw per game averages or Hollinger stats, Rose does not compare with Lebron or Howard favorably. Check the voters, more of them are talking about PER and true shooting percentages. I don't like to rely solely on stats, but that statistics are a big part of the decision for some voters.

There has only been one player with a lower field goal percentage since 1965...Iverson, he scored 31pts a game...the next best guy scored 12 a game on that team, the same amount as Noah is scoring for the Bulls shot 42% from the field.

The other stat against Rose is that he hasn't dominated the season as MVPs have. NO MVP has ever won the award and wasn't player of the month. If that is wrong, I stand corrected, but I believe that is true. Dwight and Lebron both have been recipients along with Wade. So in that case history is against him.

The intangibles are where he leads. Its the same reason Russell would win 5 MVPs in Wilt's prime. Russell had better teams, and was the leader and the best player on the best team in the league. His leadership ability was lauded, and so is Rose's ability to lead. The same with Nash who won several years ago. Another thing in the case of Nash and now Rose, the media loves him. The media disliked Kobe and dislike Lebron. The award in that case is political.

There are many facets that go into the criteria to decide the MVP, which is why there is such debate. To vilify someone for a strong opinion on the matter for one reason or another is baffling to me.

To answer your question about Rose's year....of the three that had those stats you talk about...Rose's season is FAR more insignificant.

Rose is 24/8/4
Lebron was 29/9/8
Jordan was 32.5/8/8
Oscar did it 10x!!!! And Oscar would win 1 MVP in those years...
All 3 shot 47% or higher over those respective years...Jordan and Lebron's season with those historic stats are MUCH better seasons overall. And when Jordan did it that once...and Oscar did it the other 9 times....NO MVP....so that has NO relevance to an MVP. Those other boys were flirting with triple doubles for a season. Rose's season is more like Scottie Pippen's in 1994, when I WANTED Pip to get MVP, but knew Hakeem deserved it.

 

[houheffna]

Actually, I have been reading yours and others opinions for over a year.

Congrats, you talked about Lebron quiting against the Celtics last year. Does that mean you completely forgot about it and suddenly he has amazing leadership skills on the Heat? During this season, what has Lebron done to show you that he has dramatically improved his very POOR leadership skills while he played on the Cavs?

Actually, nevermind, I shouldn't be asking you so many questions. You don't answer ANY of the important questions that people ask you. You skate around, answering only the questions that you think you have answers for.

Can you please answer the questions asked of you throughout this 20+ page thread? Let's start with some basics:

- What has LBJ done to improve his leadership skills, compared to his piss-poor leadership skills shown while on the Cavs? (which you obviously agreed to by your posts last year about the Cavs-Celtics series last year)

- You seem to be VERY statistics-oriented. Please, defend LBJ's stats against Rose's and Howard's this year. I detailed both Rose's and Howard's historic stats in that first post. Only 4 players have done what Rose has done this year. Only 3 players have done what Howard has done. Please, defend those stats.

- You refer to history as screwing some people out of MVP's in the past. You use conference record and NBA politics as some examples of people who have won it that don't have the best stats. If you are completely un-biased, as you claim, then you rationally would see that conference record and politics plays into Rose's favor.

Yes, I am a new poster. No, I have actually read your posts for a little bit here. Yes, I am guilty of finding you to be an elitist poster. You aren't unique, I have seen it on many, many, many forums. You have your place because you do know the game and you have something to contribute to a forum community, but please get over yourself (no wait, that won't happen). I guess all I can tell you is to expect people to get pissed at you. You can pretend it is because you are a superior basketball mind or because you are great in arguments but quite honestly, you bully people who are less informed about the NBA and you blatantly ignore credible points argued by real fans.

Prediction: You will comment on the last paragraph of this post and ignore all of the real questions I posed to you over my last 5-6 posts in this thread.

I think you know the answers to these questions, but the condescending is tiresome. I would gladly answer these questions, with the necessary proof. Your questioning Lebron's leadership ability is laughable. No player meant more to his team, why did Lebron win 2 MVPs, because Rose wasn't ready yet? Please....give me a break.

Lebron is a better scorer, this year, he has had bigger games, he is more efficient, and a better defender. All of those have been proven this season. That bears itself out statistically and to the naked eye. He has consistently played at a very high level this year, high enough to be a candidate. But no matter how you look at it...26-7-7 is just as good as 24-8-4. The difference? Efficiency. Lebron trumps him in that fairly easily.
What other players have done in history is one thing, but the level of efficiency while doing it is another. And people do look at that, by the way, Oscar did that for his whole career, but it was much, much more. The year Oscar averaged a triple double? He didn't win MVP...he would win it a year later, and it wasn't a Rose like year. Oscar averaged 31-11-9.9 rebs. A virtual triple double. Oscar's whole career he had years better than Rose has had this year.

So your critique of Lebron's leadership ability, based on what you THINK happened in the postseason didn't stop the man from winning back to back MVPs. He has his shortcomings, I have talked about them on here and elsewhere. But your argument is weak, you have to put the guy down to make Rose's case. That is sad.

By the way, save your commentaries on how I view myself and how I live my life...I don't give a damn. I sleep well at night knowing exactly who I am...your feeble attempt at popularity notwithstanding, I have no problem debating people, getting called out on the issues, calling people out...etc. But your sanctimonious b.s. that you pass off as some kind of character assessment is very unnecessary, unwarranted, and weak. But thanks for the free psychological evaluation....

 

[houheffna]

And finally, am I in no way saying D. Rose is a better basketball player than LBJ. Nonetheless, D. Rose is having a much better MVP season in this 2010-2011 season then LBJ. Dwight Howard is also having a better MVP season this year then LBJ.

I am also very objective, as you self-proclaim you are. As of now, I would have the Bulls losing to the Heat in the Conference Finals.

Well I don't have the Bulls losing to the Heat, nor am I arguing that Howard is not a more worthy candidate than anybody else. I only said that history says he wont be viable because of his team's record.

Your so called objectivity is another matter entirely...

People like you make the WRONG argument in this situation...totally fight the wrong battle, that type of naivete is probably why Rose has been getting put down by a lot of writers/bloggers across the country, even as I speak on twitter.

 

[Gunzaan]

Truth is nobody is voting for Rose because of his stats, his stats are inferior to other players contenders, Howard, Lebron and Kobe.

- There you go saying what the "truth" is, when you aren't a voter and have no idea what the "truth" really is. Please stop this type of thought process.

Which is one of the biggest complaints against Rose, his fg% has dropped quite a bit from his previous 2 seasons. Whatever statistical reference you want to use, whether its the raw per game averages or Hollinger stats, Rose does not compare with Lebron or Howard favorably. Check the voters, more of them are talking about PER and true shooting percentages. I don't like to rely solely on stats, but that statistics are a big part of the decision for some voters.

- His FG % has dropped because he is shooting A LOT more 3's. That is very obvious. And if the voters, whom you claim to know, are looking at PER and shooting %'s, then you shouldn't worry, right? Your boy should have it in the bag.

The intangibles are where he leads. Its the same reason Russell would win 5 MVPs in Wilt's prime. Russell had better teams, and was the leader and the best player on the best team in the league. His leadership ability was lauded, and so is Rose's ability to lead. The same with Nash who won several years ago. Another thing in the case of Nash and now Rose, the media loves him. The media disliked Kobe and dislike Lebron. The award in that case is political.

- So you quickly dismiss Rose's intangibles because you aren't a fan of them? Or is it because you think Lebron has the same leadership skills and work ethic as Rose? Using the political word is a cop-out. Why is it Rose's fault that he portrays himself as a humble, hard-working guy, while Lebron portrays himself as a selfish jerk who needs an all-star cast around him to make it work. These are the cards that Lebron has dealt us all.

There are many facets that go into the criteria to decide the MVP, which is why there is such debate. To vilify someone for a strong opinion on the matter for one reason or another is baffling to me.

- I completely agree with these two sentences. I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to vilify you... I believe you've done a great job of that yourself by being just as condescending to others in that your opinion is the truth!

To answer your question about Rose's year....of the three that had those stats you talk about...Rose's season is FAR more insignificant.

Rose is 24/8/4
Lebron was 29/9/8
Jordan was 32.5/8/8
Oscar did it 10x!!!! And Oscar would win 1 MVP in those years...
All 3 shot 47% or higher over those respective years...Jordan and Lebron's season with those historic stats are MUCH better seasons overall. And when Jordan did it that once...and Oscar did it the other 9 times....NO MVP....so that has NO relevance to an MVP. Those other boys were flirting with triple doubles for a season. Rose's season is more like Scottie Pippen's in 1994, when I WANTED Pip to get MVP, but knew Hakeem deserved it.

- You rely on history waaaaaaay too much. History is useful but not a determining factor. Look at those names Rose is with. Look at people's relative seasons this year. Those numbers are unbelievable in today's game.

We'll see how this looks

 

[Gunzaan]

Your questioning Lebron's leadership ability is laughable. No player meant more to his team, why did Lebron win 2 MVPs, because Rose wasn't ready yet? Please....give me a break.

- Who said that LBJ didn't deserve his 2 MVPs? I sure didn't. He was the MVP of those scrub Cav teams, no doubt about it. His supporting cast was so poor that based off of how many wins the Cavs had and LBJ's stat line, he was the MVP. Unfortunately for him, he went to an all-star cast that semi-underachieved this year and has had leadership problems all year long, not to mention the inability to finish a game. You still haven't addressed LBJ quitting on his team in the playoffs last year, but I guess that's history we don't want to look over

Lebron is a better scorer, this year, he has had bigger games, he is more efficient, and a better defender. All of those have been proven this season. That bears itself out statistically and to the naked eye. He has consistently played at a very high level this year, high enough to be a candidate. But no matter how you look at it...26-7-7 is just as good as 24-8-4. The difference? Efficiency. Lebron trumps him in that fairly easily.
What other players have done in history is one thing, but the level of efficiency while doing it is another. And people do look at that, by the way, Oscar did that for his whole career, but it was much, much more. The year Oscar averaged a triple double? He didn't win MVP...he would win it a year later, and it wasn't a Rose like year. Oscar averaged 31-11-9.9 rebs. A virtual triple double. Oscar's whole career he had years better than Rose has had this year.

- You are talking as if statistics are everything again. They aren't. LBJ is a stats beast, no doubt about it. Why don't you look at the Heat's ability to pull off a last second shot this year. 2 of 18 or something along those lines. This year, in the regular season, LBJ has choked with the game on the line, while D. Rose has flourished.

So your critique of Lebron's leadership ability, based on what you THINK happened in the postseason didn't stop the man from winning back to back MVPs. He has his shortcomings, I have talked about them on here and elsewhere. But your argument is weak, you have to put the guy down to make Rose's case. That is sad.

- That is just a blatant lie, which is also sad, my friend. I have stated that LBJ is by far the best athlete in the game. He is a well-deserved 2-time MVP winner. I'm sorry if me attacking his leadership skills and clutch, last-second abilities is offensive to you but that is what has been happening this year.

By the way, save your commentaries on how I view myself and how I live my life...I don't give a damn. I sleep well at night knowing exactly who I am...your feeble attempt at popularity notwithstanding, I have no problem debating people, getting called out on the issues, calling people out...etc. But your sanctimonious b.s. that you pass off as some kind of character assessment is very unnecessary, unwarranted, and weak. But thanks for the free psychological evaluation....

- Hey, no problem man. Next time I will charge $$! Look in the mirror though. I find it funny that you are getting irritated when someone is doing exactly what you do to them... and I've only started with a few posts with you. You are a funny person!

...

 

[Gunzaan]

Well I don't have the Bulls losing to the Heat, nor am I arguing that Howard is not a more worthy candidate than anybody else. I only said that history says he wont be viable because of his team's record.

Your so called objectivity is another matter entirely...

People like you make the WRONG argument in this situation...totally fight the wrong battle, that type of naivete is probably why Rose has been getting put down by a lot of writers/bloggers across the country, even as I speak on twitter.

Whenever someone disagrees with you on this point, you go back to history. Sorry to say, but you will have re-adjust your definition of MVP after this year, because according to you, when Rose wins the MVP, it will be a historic event because of how poor his statistics match up with other MVP winners in the past.

Keep sticking to your stats only when it backs your argument, and keep diverting attention away from the reasons why D. Rose will win the MVP towards what has happened in the past. You, my friend, should be a defense attorney and I can completely understand why many here have just given up debating you or flat out ignoring you. It's a shame too, because you obviously are a bright basketball mind.

 

[Anytime23]

This debate is so old.

 

[Gunzaan]

This debate is so old.

Well, thanks for your solid contribution to this old debate!

 

[houheffna]

Whenever someone disagrees with you on this point, you go back to history. Sorry to say, but you will have re-adjust your definition of MVP after this year, because according to you, when Rose wins the MVP, it will be a historic event because of how poor his statistics match up with other MVP winners in the past.

Keep sticking to your stats only when it backs your argument, and keep diverting attention away from the reasons why D. Rose will win the MVP towards what has happened in the past. You, my friend, should be a defense attorney and I can completely understand why many here have just given up debating you or flat out ignoring you. It's a shame too, because you obviously are a bright basketball mind.

You soooooo miss the point. YOU brought up stats...its a bad argument, because statistically he doesn't measure up. Just as Nash, and in my opinion, Iverson didn't. You ask question, dare me to answer...then say I use stats when it backs my argument? I answered your question. If you don't like stats, why ask me about it?

Here is the issue.....

From 1956-1980, the players chose MVP, not the media....that is why Moses won the award with mediocre teams and so did Kareem. When the media took over, team performance became optimum. With the advent of basketball's version of sabermetrics, PER, true shooting percentage...like or not, stat geeks are making different arguments. YOU have a biased view as to who should be MVP...according to some of these people who use different criterion to make their choice. The wrong guy has gotten MVP before. And believe me, just as with Nash, there is a chance that people will down the competitiveness of this era by saying "Rose won an MVP...how difficult was that era to play in?" It already happened on this forum. Nash's numbers and his role on that Suns team mirrors Rose's, except Nash was better and more valuable at making his teammates better. Which was a big argument AT THAT TIME for him getting MVP. Stats, then, as now, would not benefit the argument in his case. There is nothing new under the sun, and Rose winning MVP would be no great revelation. It would be the media voting for someone they like and voting against someone they don't like or just wanting to give somebody new the award who is having an MVP season...there is definitely nothing new about that...its just politics.

By the way, Lebron's clutch issues are exaggerated. His clutch numbers have been and remain better than Rose's. He draws more fouls in the clutch and shoots a higher percentage. Just so you know...

I notice that after I make the argument totally debunking your 24/8/4 stuff that you most likely picked up from somewhere else...you spoke of his historic season, I just pointed out to you that historic and great are not necessarily synonymous. As stated before, you continued to insist that I answer, don't get mad if the truth obliterates your theories...

 

[jerarod mckinzie]

I think it's possible because Durant is an extreme talent but i would go with D.Rose.
I just think D.Rose has more animal in him and he has the better core players and coach on his side at least for the next 5 years.....

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't think this debate is worth having anymore. Hou himself says he now believes Rose to be the MVP. Most of us disagreed with him in the "Face the facts, gentlemen" thread but now it's mostly just sour grapes.

 

[houheffna]

I don't think this debate is worth having anymore. Hou himself says he now believes Rose to be the MVP. Most of us disagreed with him in the "Face the facts, gentlemen" thread but now it's mostly just sour grapes.

I'm cool with that brother, after I said I was done, I was...But I am not going to let someone randomly show up and insult me and not respond. People who know me know better than that. So I had to go all Rock and layeth the smacketh down man! Lol...but its all good.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

The MVP award is secondary to team success anyway. If the Bulls win the championship, none of the haters (who say Rose doesn't deserve the MVP based on irrational and/or baseless crap) will be quieted and their voices will be drowned out once and for all.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'm cool with that brother, after I said I was done, I was...But I am not going to let someone randomly show up and insult me and not respond. People who know me know better than that. So I had to go all Rock and layeth the smacketh down man! Lol...but its all good.

Gunzaan appears to be pretty agreeable to me man. I can't recall an insult by him being thrown your way either...