Derrick Rose: Youngest MVP Ever!

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Let the numbers speak for themselves:

2009 ECF vs ORL Magic:

GM STARTERS FGM-A AST:TO +/- PTS
GM 1 LeBron James, 8-20 7:3 -12 25 - loss
GM 2 LeBron James, 12-23 5:6 -7 35 - win
GM 3 LeBron James, 11-28 9:2 -12 41 - loss
GM 4 LeBron James, 13-29 7:8 5 +6 44 - loss
GM 5 LeBron James, 11-24 12:4 +11 37 - win
GM 6 LeBron James, 8-20 7:3 -12 25 - loss

total:
63/144 (43%),
47 assists, 26 turnovers
(7.8 ast, 4.3 tov),
-26 team points differential,
34.5 ppg

2010 Semi-Finals vs BOS Celtics:

GM 1 LeBron James, 12-24 7:2 +7 35 - win
GM 2 LeBron James, 7-15 4:5 -16 24 - loss
GM 3 LeBron James, 14-22 7:1 +30 38 - win
GM 4 LeBron James, 7-18 8:7 -10 22 - loss
GM 5 LeBron James, 3-14 7:3 -22 15 - loss
GM 6 LeBron James, 8-21 10:9 -5 27 - loss

total:
51/114 (44%),
43 assists, 27 turnovers
(7.1 apg, 4.5 tov),
-16 team points differential,
26.8 ppg

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I JUST DISPROVED YOUR WHOLE DAMN ARGUMENT!!! ITS ALL BRAINLESS....

How do you respond to "Lebron has no halfcourt system"? That is just stupid!

I did dismiss it, and all I said is that your actions are spineless...which they are. You stand for everything, but really you stand for nothing. Its easily dismissed because it doesn't make sense. How can the best player in the game be easily marginalized? That makes no sense!!!! Either he is the best or he ain't. That is your debate...with yourself. If you were consistent it wouldn't be hard to rebut your statements. But you are fabricating arguments after I exposed the hypocrisy in your statements. That is all this is, a pointless argument aimed at redeeming yourself...and you only look like more of a hypocrite...

If I had to pick the best player in the NBA right now, it would be LeBron James.

That doesn't take away his flaws.

I seriously broke down everything for you, and you still don't get it.

Look at sentences right next to each other:

The point is that LeBron James has no halfcourt system.

Spo and Brown are noted for being defensive-minded guys who let their players have free reign on offense.

The good thing about Spo is that he, unlike Brown, allows James to run off of long rebounds and turnovers.

Brown did NOT like fast-tempo... I don't know why. He just did.

Anyway, the point is that the coach lets LeBron James do whatever the hell he wants too often offensively.

I just told you the difference between wings like he, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwyane Wade. And Jordan.

He isn't even a wing scorer most of the time! And he is not as versatile as those players anyway scoring the ball! Or as skilled!

I just told you the difference between PGs like he, Deron, Rose, and CP3. James is NOT NEARLY as good of PGs as those guys. He is NOT Magic Johnson. Magic had a bag of tricks passing the ball and didn't turn the ball over nearly as much...

You can't just dismiss those things.

If it wasn't for James' defense and rebounding, he wouldn't be anywhere CLOSE to being the best player in the NBA!

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Now Houf I am going to try something crazy here. I am going to give you a chance to have your OWN opinion for a change:

I hope your brain doesn't explode!

I know that you are used to expressing your opinions in the form of:

"Your opinion is b.s., guy!!!"

But let us give it a go.

2 questions:

Who is the worst PG between Magic, Stockton, GP, Rose, Paul, D-Will, and LeBron James?

Who is the worst wing scorer between Jordan, Bryant, LeBron James, Wade, Durant, Anthony?

take your time.

I will try not to use petty name-calling in my response to you (like you do to me and everybody here with an opinion contrary to your's)

 

[houheffna]

If I had to pick the best player in the NBA right now, it would be LeBron James.

That doesn't take away his flaws.

I seriously broke down everything for you, and you still don't get it.

Look at sentences right next to each other:

The point is that LeBron James has no halfcourt system.

Spo and Brown are noted for being defensive-minded guys who let their players have free reign on offense.

The good thing about Spo is that he, unlike Brown, allows James to run off of long rebounds and turnovers.

Brown did NOT like fast-tempo... I don't know why. He just did.

Anyway, the point is that the coach lets LeBron James do whatever the hell he wants too often offensively.

I just told you the difference between wings like he, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwyane Wade. And Jordan.

He isn't even a wing scorer most of the time! And he is not as versatile as those players anyway scoring the ball! Or as skilled!

I just told you the difference between PGs like he, Deron, Rose, and CP3. James is NOT NEARLY as good of PGs as those guys. He is NOT Magic Johnson. Magic had a bag of tricks passing the ball and didn't turn the ball over nearly as much...

You can't just dismiss those things.

If it wasn't for James' defense and rebounding, he wouldn't be anywhere CLOSE to being the best player in the NBA!

You said Lebron has no work ethic, just lit that silly argument on fire. Now you continue to nitpick and waffle on your own beliefs. I said he was the best player in the league, not the best scorer, not the best point guard, not the best wing scorer. He is the best player in the NBA by a sizable margin. That was my statement

Lebron James is NOT a point guard...he is a point forward....he needs the ball to be effective, if he doesn't have an effective post game, and he is the best in the league, he must be an absolute beast with the ball in his hands...I would rather have Lebron with the ball in his hands than any other player in the league...point guards included. The only players who I would consider more effective in NBA history is Magic Johnson at having the ball on offense at the point position. None of the other pgs were the best in the league, and at this time, having Lebron stand on the wing doing nothing actually does marginalize him and any coach that does that at this point in James' career wouldn't have a job for long.

As for wing scorers, Lebron shoots better than Wade, and he can take players off the dribble better than Carmelo and Durant...Jordan and Kobe are two of the best ever at scoring on the wing, the difference is Lebron's size, speed and strength makes him even more effective driving to the basket and absorbing contact. Nobody would have fouled Lebron the way they fouled Jordan...he is bigger than Bill Laimbeer!!! If you are asking who I would rather have with the ball on the wing it would be Jordan. But that is a no brainer...Kobe is as selfish as Jordan but not as efficient, so it would be a toss up between Kobe and Lebron. Today, I give the ball to Lebron on the wing 10 times before I give it to Kobe once. If the two were on the same team, Kobe would be playing OFF of Lebron, as would Durant and Anthony, who can't handle the ball on the wing as well as Lebron,

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You said Lebron has no work ethic, just lit that silly argument on fire. Now you continue to nitpick and waffle on your own beliefs. I said he was the best player in the league, not the best scorer, not the best point guard, not the best wing scorer. He is the best player in the NBA by a sizable margin. That was my statement

Lebron James is NOT a point guard...he is a point forward....he needs the ball to be effective, if he doesn't have an effective post game, and he is the best in the league, he must be an absolute beast with the ball in his hands...I would rather have Lebron with the ball in his hands than any other player in the league...point guards included. The only players who I would consider more effective in NBA history is Magic Johnson at having the ball on offense at the point position. None of the other pgs were the best in the league, and at this time, having Lebron stand on the wing doing nothing actually does marginalize him and any coach that does that at this point in James' career wouldn't have a job for long.

As for wing scorers, Lebron shoots better than Wade, and he can take players off the dribble better than Carmelo and Durant...Jordan and Kobe are two of the best ever at scoring on the wing, the difference is Lebron's size, speed and strength makes him even more effective driving to the basket and absorbing contact. Nobody would have fouled Lebron the way they fouled Jordan...he is bigger than Bill Laimbeer!!! If you are asking who I would rather have with the ball on the wing it would be Jordan. But that is a no brainer...Kobe is as selfish as Jordan but not as efficient, so it would be a toss up between Kobe and Lebron. Today, I give the ball to Lebron on the wing 10 times before I give it to Kobe once. If the two were on the same team, Kobe would be playing OFF of Lebron, as would Durant and Anthony, who can't handle the ball on the wing as well as Lebron,

I see where you are coming from in your stances. But I would advise you to consider that all of this is just your basketball philosophy. You aren't necessarily right or wrong. There's a million different ways to play effective team basketball and individual basketball in this league.

 

[houheffna]

Now the one question I have had that wasn't answered...

If you take the ball out of Lebron's hands, who on the Heat team are you going to give the ball to and what do you expect Lebron to do in the meantime?

 

[houheffna]

I see where you are coming from in your stances. But I would advise you to consider that all of this is just your basketball philosophy. You aren't necessarily right or wrong. There's a million different ways to play effective team basketball and individual basketball in this league.

There is a difference between philosophy and absolutes...saying Lebron doesn't have a work ethic is an absolute...he either does or he doesn't. That is why I said you are wrong...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

What about pointing out James' short-comings, as well?

He cannot penetrate the lane while creating for others the same way other points (Paul, Williams, Rose, Nash, a lot of others) can. This includes his own teammate, Wade, who isn't even naturally a point guard nor has played that since his rookie season.

He does not shoot as well as Bryant, Durant, or Anthony.

He does not have as good of a back-to-the-basket game as Bryant, Durant, Wade, or Anthony either.

He DOES have more explosiveness, speed, size, strength, and leaping ability than anybody in the NBA.

BUT, guys like Bryant (even at his age), Durant, Anthony, and Wade also have explosiveness.

^this is why I would consider those guys to be better wing scorers. Jordan was just that, as well. But you said it yourself, Houf. James doesn't do as much on the wing as any of those guys. And it is because he isn't able to.

Granted- James, often times, doesn't need to in order to be effective.

But who would I rather have isolate on the wing with Shane Battier up in their grill between Bryant, Durant, Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and LeBron? The answer to that question is not LeBron. I'd rather any other of those guys were in that situation against Battier.

Now, do Wade/Bryant/Durant/Anthony have the point guard skills of LeBron James?

Helllllllll no.

Do Paul/Nash/Rose/D-Will have the flat out perimeter scoring ability of James?

Helllllll no.

But I don't think James is arguably the best in the NBA at anything on the offensive end besides these things:

Pure Strength.

All-around size.

Pure Speed.

Finishing Ability around the rim.

Drawing Contact.

There's no way that Kobe, Melo, Wade, or Durant are as good at those thing as LeBron. But they are no jokes in any of those categories either.

The reason I put LeBron as my personal choice for best player in the NBA is because he is a lot better at defense or rebounding than any of those guys.

And I didn't say that LeBron James had "no" work ethic. I said that it is fairly obvious that the dedication in his offensive craft is not as high as a lot of the other greats in the NBA: past and present.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Now the one question I have had that wasn't answered...

If you take the ball out of Lebron's hands, who on the Heat team are you going to give the ball to and what do you expect Lebron to do in the meantime?

I believe that is a pretty terrible dillemma for the Heat.

If you run James at the point then you need to essentially have it the way it is now. Because it seems like Wade and LeBron are currently playing to the best of their abilities in the halfcourt set. It leaves something to be desired when it comes to spot-up shooting. But it can be effective. Especially when you run a 1-2 screen with Wade and/or James rolling.

The main guy who I feel hasn't been doing his part is Bosh. He needs to become a pick-and-roll/low-post presense. And he is settling to be a pick-and-pop/settle for mid-range jump-shot guy.

Now, onto your question.

I would probably want the ball in Wade's hands at the top of the key at point guard. And I would want LeBron rolling off the ball and utilizing the baseline more often than he does. Right now, Bosh is their baseline guy. And I don't think that is working for them.

Obviously, that poses a problem in the sense that James is not the best shooter in the world. But at least he is a better spot-up shooter than Wade is.

 

[houheffna]

I believe that is a pretty terrible dillemma for the Heat.

If you run James at the point then you need to essentially have it the way it is now. Because it seems like Wade and LeBron are currently playing to the best of their abilities in the halfcourt set. It leaves something to be desired when it comes to spot-up shooting. But it can be effective. Especially when you run a 1-2 screen with Wade and/or James rolling.

The main guy who I feel hasn't been doing his part is Bosh. He needs to become a pick-and-roll/low-post presense. And he is settling to be a pick-and-pop/settle for mid-range jump-shot guy.

Now, onto your question.

I would probably want the ball in Wade's hands at the top of the key at point guard. And I would want LeBron rolling off the ball and utilizing the baseline more often than he does. Right now, Bosh is their baseline guy. And I don't think that is working for them.

Obviously, that poses a problem in the sense that James is not the best shooter in the world. But at least he is a better spot-up shooter than Wade is.

you are turning Lebron into Kyle Korver? They have to find a way to share the ball, they have to figure it out. Having Lebron run baseline is not the way to win a championship...

Now my issues are simple with your analysis. Its off! You compared Lebron James to Stephon Marbury...how can I take that seriously? That's a joke! Comparing his work ethic to other players when you DON'T know the detailed regiment of those players is over the top.

Durant has NO post game by the way...he faces up...almost 9 out of 10 shots he takes are jumpshots...that is just inaccurate information. That said, he is a better shooter, but he is not a better ballhandler and he is not nearly as effective going to the basket as Lebron....Durant NEEDS a point guard. Lebron doesn't. Anthony is the best scorer in the NBA skillwise...when it comes to efficiency he is far behind James. So again, with the Battier scenario...you can take any of those guys over Lebron...based on this year...you would be wrong...I can go find the stats to back that up if you want, but I shouldn't have to do that...the closest is Wade...but Wade is playing at the best levels of efficiency of his career. I would still take Bryant and Wade, in that order, over Lebron for the last shot of the game though...

 

[Glide2keva]

And having him standing dribbling the clock out at the top of the key isn't either.

Wade needs to take the last shot and lebron can rebound the miss if it happens.

lebron is good for early scoring and setting the tone of the game, but Wade is the closer. He's proven he can do it on every level he's played, including the NBA Finals.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

you are turning Lebron into Kyle Korver? They have to find a way to share the ball, they have to figure it out. Having Lebron run baseline is not the way to win a championship...

Now my issues are simple with your analysis. Its off! You compared Lebron James to Stephon Marbury...how can I take that seriously? That's a joke! Comparing his work ethic to other players when you DON'T know the detailed regiment of those players is over the top.

Durant has NO post game by the way...he faces up...almost 9 out of 10 shots he takes are jumpshots...that is just inaccurate information. That said, he is a better shooter, but he is not a better ballhandler and he is not nearly as effective going to the basket as Lebron....Durant NEEDS a point guard. Lebron doesn't. Anthony is the best scorer in the NBA skillwise...when it comes to efficiency he is far behind James. So again, with the Battier scenario...you can take any of those guys over Lebron...based on this year...you would be wrong...I can go find the stats to back that up if you want, but I shouldn't have to do that...the closest is Wade...but Wade is playing at the best levels of efficiency of his career. I would still take Bryant and Wade, in that order, over Lebron for the last shot of the game though...

Carmelo Anthony has by far the best FG% in game-winning shot situations. That stat has been floating around constantly. I would put Anthony on that list over LeBron to take the last shot. I personally would add Durant because of his shooting ability.

It is unfair to say that Durant has zero post-up game. This year, he has really grown in that regard. When the defense forces him into a position where he should best post-up and fade away or even look to draw contact off of a turn around, he has been able to do that. It isn't the main thing in his game, but it does exist moreso than with LeBron.

I agree with you that it is a tough choice between Durant and LeBron for who would take the last shot. I personally would go with Durant.

The Stephon Marbury comparison with LeBron James wasn't in regard to work ethic. It was actually depicting how I dislike the high number of possessions in which Marbury either attempts to score or assist a basket. He and LeBron seem to try to have their hand in every single basket and play a little too much "one shot or one pass and you're done" basketball.

 

[houheffna]

Carmelo Anthony has by far the best FG% in game-winning shot situations. That stat has been floating around constantly. I would put Anthony on that list over LeBron to take the last shot. I personally would add Durant because of his shooting ability.

It is unfair to say that Durant has zero post-up game. This year, he has really grown in that regard. When the defense forces him into a position where he should best post-up and fade away or even look to draw contact off of a turn around, he has been able to do that. It isn't the main thing in his game, but it does exist moreso than with LeBron.

I agree with you that it is a tough choice between Durant and LeBron for who would take the last shot. I personally would go with Durant.

The Stephon Marbury comparison with LeBron James wasn't in regard to work ethic. It was actually depicting how I dislike the high number of possessions in which Marbury either attempts to score or assist a basket. He and LeBron seem to try to have their hand in every single basket and play a little too much "one shot or one pass and you're done" basketball.

Again with Durant...9 out of 10 shots are jumpshots...that is a documented fact. Posting is not prevalent in Durant's game enough to even bring up, its a minuscule detail.

Over James' career, he has been more efficient and dependable in the clutch than either Anthony or Durant. Kobe is almost Jordanesque in what he can do to close games, that is why I take him. I don't take other players over Lebron, Lebron's clutch numbers crush Wade's over the last 5 years too.

Your Marbury/Lebron stuff is off still, I know that wasn't about work ethic...but it was off. Lebron is a lot less selfish than Marbury was, they are nothing alike at all, comparing Lebron to Marbuy is an insult...

 

[Titan]

I wonder if anybody rules Chicago at the moment more than D-Rose.

Cutler last year but not anymore.

 

[houheffna]

Here is a table of clutch stats according to 82games.com...

Sortable NBA Player Clutch stats

 

[pinkizdead]

I believe if you go to 82posts.com, you'll find that pinkizdead is the best clutch time post-er. Just sayen.

 

[Glide2keva]

Yet when you watch the games, you see him shy away from taking the last shot, unless he absolutely has to. Then, he just drives for the foul instead of the score. He's done this twice in the last two seasons against Chicago and each time (one in Cleveland), he didn't get the foul and lost the game.

Why?

Because he wasn't trying to score. He was trying to get ailed out by the refs. The games I am referring to are the game with Cleveland last year where he drove into Luol Deng trying make it seem like Deng was fouling him the whole time, but he wasn't and lebron wasn't even driving at the rim. He drove to the side because he knew the foul was coming. But it didn't.

Then there was the last game in Miami. Same situation, this time it was Joakim Noah guarding him. He drove toward the rim, but not at the rim and threw up a wild shot that had no chance at going in. Why? Because he was looking for a foul instead of the score.

That's something stats don't tell you.

 

[houheffna]

Yet when you watch the games, you see him shy away from taking the last shot, unless he absolutely has to. Then, he just drives for the foul instead of the score. He's done this twice in the last two seasons against Chicago and each time (one in Cleveland), he didn't get the foul and lost the game.

Why?

Because he wasn't trying to score. He was trying to get ailed out by the refs. The games I am referring to are the game with Cleveland last year where he drove into Luol Deng trying make it seem like Deng was fouling him the whole time, but he wasn't and lebron wasn't even driving at the rim. He drove to the side because he knew the foul was coming. But it didn't.

Then there was the last game in Miami. Same situation, this time it was Joakim Noah guarding him. He drove toward the rim, but not at the rim and threw up a wild shot that had no chance at going in. Why? Because he was looking for a foul instead of the score.

That's something stats don't tell you.

You misinterpret what happened. He tried to score on both possessions. The defense was good enough to stop him. It has happened to the best players in the game, and it happened to him, he is no different from other superstars. He missed shots, just like Kobe, Durant and Derrick Rose. Still he is the best player in the game, and over the years, he has been a very good option in the clutch.

 

[Glide2keva]

I didn't misinterpret anything. Take off your lebron colored glasses man.

That game in Cleveland, he was CLEARLY not driving to score. He was driving AWAY towards the left of the rim and was driving his body into Deng making it look like Deng was pusing him off to the left, but Deng wasn't. He had his hands up and was riding him, but not pushing him. He was looking for a bailout call (ala the 2009 series against Orlando).

And the Miami game he was looking for the foul also. He threw up a wild shot that had no chance of going in hoping the whistle would blow.

I don't see how you can miss that.

And why are you so up in his for? You seem to get really defensive when someone criticizes him. Is he paying you?

 

[Glide2keva]

Which will you celebrate more?

A Bulls title win or Miami?

All i see is you man crushing lebron like you're Delonte eyeing his mom.