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I think Helton gets in. He has over a .400 OBP and that should get a lot of people around here panties wet.
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Expert opinion there
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I never said he was getting in. I said does he get strong consideration. Two totally different things. I believe he get more than the 10 to 20 percent, but I got into a debate because they acted like he shouldn't even be on the ballot at first. That's why I told First Timer I am fine with his line of thinking.
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Which is a question, not a statement.
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Derp squad out in full force I see.
Which makes his reaction to posts like this:
"Absolutely not. "
"One word - No. "
"No.
Great discussion! No need for details or statistics. "
Even dumber.
His question was answered and his shitty thought about "strong consideration" was smacked down.
Anything else?
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Good article and says basically what I think.
http://sportsbythenumbers.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/appreciating-alfonso-soriano/
Appreciating Alfonso Soriano
Posted on January 29, 2013 by Bill Porter
I can’t say why I was reconsidering Alfonso Soriano recently (other than the fact that he was released in our Ottoneu league – in my mind, a very surprising cut), but as I look back over his career I wonder if there has been a more misunderstood career. Admittedly, I am biased since I sat in the right field bleachers in Phoenix in Game 7 of the 2001 World Series when he took Curt Schilling deep to give the Yankees a 2-1 lead that Mariano Rivera would relinquish in painful fashion (for me and my fellow Yankee fans, anyway).
Merely raising Soriano’s name invariably brings to the fore a litany of “bads”. Soriano’s plate discipline has vacillated between god awful and merely below average – though anyone that has watched him repeatedly chase sliders down and away doesn’t have to look at his career 6% walk rate or 54% swing rate. His indifference as a fielder is well documented – though since he moved from 2B to the outfield, those limitations have been more successfully hidden. After joining the 40/40 club in 2006, Soriano signed an 8 year/$136M contract largely viewed as an albatross, and the Cubs have been trying to get out from under that contract almost since its inception.
The focus on Soriano’s limitations obscures some rather impressive positives. Soriano broke in as a full-time player in 2001, and has hit 369 of his 372 career HRs since that point. Only 6 players (Pujols, ARod, Adam Dunn, David Ortiz, Jim Thome and Paul Konerko) have hit more. In addition to the power, Soriano has swiped 270 bases (and his 75 CS mean he’s stolen those bags at a 78% clip). With 28 more home runs he would eclipse the 400 HR mark – there are 5 players in baseball history to club 400 HRs while stealing 250 bases – Willie Mays, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Andre Dawson and Gary Sheffield.
Finally, the matter of the contract – Soriano was paid an $8M signing bonus, and then the contract called for $128 over his 2007-2014 seasons. From 2007-2012, he has collected $94M (excluding the signing bonus), and he will earn $18M in each of the next two seasons. If we amortize the signing bonus ratably over the life of the contract, the following table shows Soriano’s WAR, the value of that WAR and his salary thus far:
WAR Value Salary
2007 7.0 $ 28.70 $ 10.00
2008 4.1 $ 18.40 $ 14.00
2009 0.0 $ - $ 17.00
2010 3.2 $ 12.80 $ 19.00
2011 1.4 $ 6.30 $ 19.00
2012 4.0 $ 18.10 $ 19.00
$84.30 $98.00
Soriano debuted on the North Side with a monstrous 2007 season (albeit aided by a ridiculous UZR rating that was likely at least partially random variance), and followed it up with a more than respectable 2008. Through two seasons, the Cubs were sporting more than $10M in profits – until 2009 hit. Almost out of nowhere, Soriano posted a replacement level season. In mid April, Soriano collided with Wrigley’s (ivy covered but solidly) brick LF wall, and ultimately underwent surgery in September. Whether this injury caused the down year or now I’ll never know, but the down year accounts for nearly all of the “loss” the Cubs have faced over the first 6 years of Soriano’s contract. Ultimately, Soriano has delivered about 85% of his contract value to date – not a bargain by any stretch, but that is a far cry from the “albatross” contracts that MLB owners hand out with alarming frequency. He likely won’t deliver $38M in value over the next two seasons – but he can still hit even at age 37.
Alfonso Soriano won’t go to the Hall of Fame, has never developed any plate discipline,and has been overpaid for what he has delivered on the field. However, he’s going to retire with over 400 Homers, 250 SBs, and close to 50 WAR, accomplishments worthy of not being overshadowed.
Oh and First Timer I have been letting this go for awhile because WAR only means so much to me, but everywhere I look at his WAR numbers. Its is not even close to 27.5 so Im not sure where you are getting that number.
http://sportsbythenumbers.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/appreciating-alfonso-soriano/
Appreciating Alfonso Soriano
Posted on January 29, 2013 by Bill Porter
I can’t say why I was reconsidering Alfonso Soriano recently (other than the fact that he was released in our Ottoneu league – in my mind, a very surprising cut), but as I look back over his career I wonder if there has been a more misunderstood career. Admittedly, I am biased since I sat in the right field bleachers in Phoenix in Game 7 of the 2001 World Series when he took Curt Schilling deep to give the Yankees a 2-1 lead that Mariano Rivera would relinquish in painful fashion (for me and my fellow Yankee fans, anyway).
Merely raising Soriano’s name invariably brings to the fore a litany of “bads”. Soriano’s plate discipline has vacillated between god awful and merely below average – though anyone that has watched him repeatedly chase sliders down and away doesn’t have to look at his career 6% walk rate or 54% swing rate. His indifference as a fielder is well documented – though since he moved from 2B to the outfield, those limitations have been more successfully hidden. After joining the 40/40 club in 2006, Soriano signed an 8 year/$136M contract largely viewed as an albatross, and the Cubs have been trying to get out from under that contract almost since its inception.
The focus on Soriano’s limitations obscures some rather impressive positives. Soriano broke in as a full-time player in 2001, and has hit 369 of his 372 career HRs since that point. Only 6 players (Pujols, ARod, Adam Dunn, David Ortiz, Jim Thome and Paul Konerko) have hit more. In addition to the power, Soriano has swiped 270 bases (and his 75 CS mean he’s stolen those bags at a 78% clip). With 28 more home runs he would eclipse the 400 HR mark – there are 5 players in baseball history to club 400 HRs while stealing 250 bases – Willie Mays, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Andre Dawson and Gary Sheffield.
Finally, the matter of the contract – Soriano was paid an $8M signing bonus, and then the contract called for $128 over his 2007-2014 seasons. From 2007-2012, he has collected $94M (excluding the signing bonus), and he will earn $18M in each of the next two seasons. If we amortize the signing bonus ratably over the life of the contract, the following table shows Soriano’s WAR, the value of that WAR and his salary thus far:
WAR Value Salary
2007 7.0 $ 28.70 $ 10.00
2008 4.1 $ 18.40 $ 14.00
2009 0.0 $ - $ 17.00
2010 3.2 $ 12.80 $ 19.00
2011 1.4 $ 6.30 $ 19.00
2012 4.0 $ 18.10 $ 19.00
$84.30 $98.00
Soriano debuted on the North Side with a monstrous 2007 season (albeit aided by a ridiculous UZR rating that was likely at least partially random variance), and followed it up with a more than respectable 2008. Through two seasons, the Cubs were sporting more than $10M in profits – until 2009 hit. Almost out of nowhere, Soriano posted a replacement level season. In mid April, Soriano collided with Wrigley’s (ivy covered but solidly) brick LF wall, and ultimately underwent surgery in September. Whether this injury caused the down year or now I’ll never know, but the down year accounts for nearly all of the “loss” the Cubs have faced over the first 6 years of Soriano’s contract. Ultimately, Soriano has delivered about 85% of his contract value to date – not a bargain by any stretch, but that is a far cry from the “albatross” contracts that MLB owners hand out with alarming frequency. He likely won’t deliver $38M in value over the next two seasons – but he can still hit even at age 37.
Alfonso Soriano won’t go to the Hall of Fame, has never developed any plate discipline,and has been overpaid for what he has delivered on the field. However, he’s going to retire with over 400 Homers, 250 SBs, and close to 50 WAR, accomplishments worthy of not being overshadowed.
Oh and First Timer I have been letting this go for awhile because WAR only means so much to me, but everywhere I look at his WAR numbers. Its is not even close to 27.5 so Im not sure where you are getting that number.
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It's sill better baseball discussion than you and your twin Selma have provided over the past month.
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You really are a pole smoker. lol I have said from the beginning I don't think he gets in. You went all crazy Susie and went all ape shit because you are a narcissistic person that cant have a discussion without throwing his sippy cup and have his mom make him meatloaf.
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Smacked down by who? A non baseball person that has no say in what kind of votes he gets. This was brought up on a Cubs broadcast and have had many article written about it lately. Sorry for trying to have baseball discussion during your nap time.
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http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/soriaal01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_active.shtml
He's 47th on the list.
STFU and learn to read. I cited it earlier in the thread (bWAR)
Good work "looking everywhere" except at Baseballref
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Cool. Slow season for the Cubs huh? Bringing up non-qualified players for the HOF.
It doesn't matter if I don't vote I can look at comparable(better) players and see what kind of votes they got.
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Well, considering baseball reference and fangraphs are off by a good margin. Who is right? So, want to tell me again how WAR is accurate.
Oh and this is what you said
Andre Dawson won ROY, won an MVP, was an elite OFers before his knees went etc. The comparison isn't even close. Dawson has a career OPS+ of 119, he won 8 gold gloves, 4 silver sluggers, his career WAR 64.4 is compared to Soriano's 27.2.
Not to mention his Gray Ink, HOF Standards, and HOF Monitors put him in the HOF or at least on the cusp.
Soriano is in no way at all similar to Andre Dawson.
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You dismissed a baseball manager opinion because you can look at numbers? lol
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Oh and one last thing, Kevin Orie won rookie of the year. He should be in the HALL! ROY is a major accomplishment!!!!!!!
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fWAR doesn't factor in defense the same. Hence why the are offensive heavy. If you look at bWAR's oWAR it's more similar to fWAR.
Research is fun.
Try it.
Try again failbot.
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Talk about a troll job.
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Oh and one more thing. Where did I ever say Soriano was going to make it? I even compromised with you, but you went into crazy mode again and started trying to puff out your chest and beat on your drum. I posed a question. You and your buddy came back with dick head answers so I gave it back. I have said over and over that I don't think he gets in but to dismiss it is comical.
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Yes. And because he's wrong.
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Not as much of one as finishing 3rd though apparently.
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