DRose Getting The Shaft On Projected MVP Voting

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Rose is inherently more valuable a scorer/facilitator wrapped up into one player, on an otherwise well-below average offensive team, than Anthony is on an otherwise (at least) somewhat better than average offensive team.

 

[Crystallas]

If Rose has more performances like last night, he's going to put himself back into the conversation.

 

[Lex L.]

If Rose has more performances like last night, he's going to put himself back into the conversation.

Guys need to make shots.

 

[97Bulls]

The fact that Pippen was brought into this argument is baffling. If you put together the top 10 all time MVP snubs, Pippen isn't in the conversation.

Enough is enough...for crying out loud...

Pippen should've won for the same reason rose won. The circumstances.

I also forgot that iverson won his mvp for the same reason over shaq. So I feel the precedent began with iverson in 01.

I can't think of another situation where one of the top 3-4 players didn't win the mvp before iverson in 01. From there, nash and rose both won mvps in spite of not being one of the top 3 players. Mainly due to their teams success with minimal help.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

If Rose has more performances like last night, he's going to put himself back into the conversation.

I have no idea why he would not be in the conversation already.

 

[97Bulls]

Rose is inherently more valuable a scorer/facilitator wrapped up into one player, on an otherwise well-below average offensive team, than Anthony is on an otherwise (at least) somewhat better than average offensive team.

You really think the knicks havve more firepower than the bulls? After anthony and stat, who else is there?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Pippen never should have won the MVP. *waits for sp94 to troll this thread*

 

[Crystallas]

I have no idea why he would not be in the conversation already.

I have no idea why predictions made before the season carry much weight. :dunno:

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen never should have won the MVP. *waits for sp94 to troll this thread*

I'm basing that on why rose, nash, and iverson won their mvp even though other players have had a better combination of stats and record. Olajuwan may also have won it cuz he hadn't won one before then. But he didn't do anything he didn't normally do. At least in the regular season.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You really think the knicks havve more firepower than the bulls? After anthony and stat, who else is there?

Rose makes most of the other players better offensively with his penetration ability, and has the ability to bail them out with his scoring whenever the team needs a basket. Anthony mostly lacks the great ability to improve his teammates with his ball-distribution and doesn't often look down that route either.

The case I could see for Anthony over Rose is that the Knicks were a better offensive team than the Bulls last season already. However, if you take Anthony off of the Knicks altogether, they would still be nearly as good offensively as the Bulls even with Rose there because they would still have good shooters to go along with D'Antoni's system and Amare Stoudemire.

If the Bulls did not have Rose, they would be pretty horrible offensively.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I have no idea why predictions made before the season carry much weight. :dunno:

I don't think these ESPN projections carry all so much weight. I just find them to be annoying. It's an internet forum after all. A large time on sports message boards are spent discussion trivial things.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'm basing that on why rose, nash, and iverson won their mvp even though other players have had a better combination of stats and record. Olajuwan may also have won it cuz he hadn't won one before then. But he didn't do anything he didn't normally do. At least in the regular season.

It isn't always guards with the ball in their hands who win the MVP award though. That wasn't true back then and it still isn't now. The Rockets were based on an inside-outside offensive attack. They had some of the deepest and most lethal three-point shooting in the NBA. And what opened them up was Hakeem Olajuwon's presence inside and his willingness and ability to move the basketball out of the post and back to the perimeter. And vice-versa.

Olajuwon was their most valuable offensive player because he represented the element of the inside scoring threat. The great ball-movement between players like Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, and Mario Elie would have largely gone to waste if it wasn't for him.

Not to mention that Olajuwon was the best defensive player in the league and all. He made Houston's defense that much more deadly and stabilized them on the glass.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

The Mavericks won maybe 67 games back in 2006-07 with Dirk Nowitzki and he won the MVP. A lot of people thought of it as a mistake when DAL lost to GSW in the first round, but that is a regular season award. How many games would the Mavericks have otherwise won that season had Nowitzki not played at all? The MVP award is based on one player's ability to rack up wins, and that is pretty consistent throughout most of the recipients of the award on any given season in which they've won it.

 

[97Bulls]

It isn't always guards with the ball in their hands who win the MVP award though. That wasn't true back then and it still isn't now. The Rockets were based on an inside-outside offensive attack. They had some of the deepest and most lethal three-point shooting in the NBA. And what opened them up was Hakeem Olajuwon's presence inside and his willingness and ability to move the basketball out of the post and back to the perimeter. And vice-versa.

Olajuwon was their most valuable offensive player because he represented the element of the inside scoring threat. The great ball-movement between players like Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, and Mario Elie would have largely gone to waste if it wasn't for him.

Not to mention that Olajuwon was the best defensive player in the league and all. He made Houston's defense that much more deadly and stabilized them on the glass.

I agree. But as I said before. In the regular season he didnt do anything out of the realm of what he normally did yearly.

I doubt very seriously that rose wouldve won the mvp in the 80s or 90s due to the fact that his stats aren't typical of an mvp.

He won because of how well he led the bulls.

 

[97Bulls]

The Mavericks won maybe 67 games back in 2006-07 with Dirk Nowitzki and he won the MVP. A lot of people thought of it as a mistake when DAL lost to GSW in the first round, but that is a regular season award. How many games would the Mavericks have otherwise won that season had Nowitzki not played at all? The MVP award is based on one player's ability to rack up wins, and that is pretty consistent throughout most of the recipients of the award on any given season in which they've won it.

Very true. It just seeems to me that the criteria has changed a bit starting with iverson.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I agree. But as I said before. In the regular season he didnt do anything out of the realm of what he normally did yearly.

I doubt very seriously that rose wouldve won the mvp in the 80s or 90s due to the fact that his stats aren't typical of an mvp.

He won because of how well he led the bulls.

Rose wouldn't have won the MVP in the 80's or 90's or even the early 00's because the best teams generally weren't as star heavy. Over the last few seasons, most of the best players in the league have started to get other star players to join up with them. (i.e. BOS, Kobe and LAL, James and MIA, and now Melo and NYK).

 

[97Bulls]

Rose wouldn't have won the MVP in the 80's or 90's or even the early 00's because the best teams generally weren't as star heavy. Over the last few seasons, most of the best players in the league have started to get other star players to join up with them. (i.e. BOS, Kobe and LAL, James and MIA, and now Melo and NYK).

I can't agree that teams pre 00s weren't as star heavy. I guess maybe by status. Due to most of the players being able to build up a rep on their own. Like paul, kobe, gasol, wade, james, bosh, allen, garnett, antony, etc with howard and d. Williams soon to follow. Its kinda sad. Just about evey star player has tried to join up with a few more star players in an effort to win. No competitive spirit at all.

 

[houheffna]

He accused fans in general of being biased and racist. It wasn't in the context of MVP award selection.

You don't think accusations of bias and racism were aimed at the media? The media who vote for the MVP? I think you would be surprised.

 

[houheffna]

Who do you think should be? Serious question.

Is Rose in your Top 3-5?

I think you and I are talking about 2 separate things.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I can't agree that teams pre 00s weren't as star heavy. I guess maybe by status. Due to most of the players being able to build up a rep on their own. Like paul, kobe, gasol, wade, james, bosh, allen, garnett, antony, etc with howard and d. Williams soon to follow. Its kinda sad. Just about evey star player has tried to join up with a few more star players in an effort to win. No competitive spirit at all.

The league really was a lot less star heavy back pre-2000. There are not a whole lot of teams that had so many great scorers and/or great players. The only three that really had more than one legitimate star throughout most of the 90's were the Bulls, Jazz, and Sonics.

And while it is true that Jordan and Malone still managed to win a combined six(?) Finals MVP awards during the 1990's with a secondary star, Stockton and Pippen complemented their best player much better than a Wade/Bosh complements James or how a Stoudemire complements an Anthony. Barkley won an MVP in 1993 and David Robinson won one in 1995 not because they were the best players in the league, but because their teams were most dependent upon their role on the team as solo superstars.

Nowadays, in a league of 30 teams, the top 30 players are spread among about 15-20 different teams. That tells you how star-heavy the league has become.