Educating Our Children, Private Schools Doing More With Less

[MassHavoc]

Boy, you are ranty............. Hahaha



The question that I love to be discussed is the funding and cost of the public system that appears to be degrading even while more and more dollars per student are added. $10,000 per student per year? Wow



I also believe this is where the discussion could be in regards to charter schools. Those individuals do not need to fund the tuition like a traditional private school but yet get many of the advantages of a private education. Are any of you aware of what the primary difference is between a charter and public school?

Yeah avoiding work after a tough day yesterday.



My point is that the rising costs are due to the rising is due to all the things associated to the schools that are not associated with the private schools. Such things that I listed. If you broke down the cost of the private schools tution, and what it paid for and applied that directly to what the public schools pay for those things, I bet it's a very diffrent ball game.



Such as, Tuition goes toward, Books, teachers, facilities.



I bet for the public school systems the cost of books per child is probably reletively similar, if not less due to buying in bulk. The cost of teachers is less, and as for the facilities, if you took it by number of children I'd bet it was much less. As in. for every 100,000 private schools spend on facilities you have 10 kids, where public schools have 50....



Again the costs start escalating for public schools because of everything they have to pay for that the private schools don't. It's not a fair comparison. You want a la carte education and it's just not going to happen. You can't only pay for what you want to use. Because then you don't have the money for the who system. And a lot will fall through the cracks, hell a lot already does.



I can't think of a good comparison but to me it's like cable packages. I know you all hate them, and at times I do as well. But you don't get to pick and choose what channels you get. If you did, then there would be no new channels because no one would pay for them. And a lot of really good channels wouldn't exist because people wouldn't be paying for them with the rest of their channels. Some people can afford Premium channels, and that's great, more power to them, but they don't just get the higher tier channels without the rest of the system. Now on top of that you can't just say I want HBO and only HBO without paying for any other channel.





Damn it, ranty again.

 

[IceHogsFan]

Thanks IHF. I'm very aware of what and why they are. Trust me.



Which is why I posted that.

I am sure most are not aware of those two areas.



They are not unionized either which is not in your description, at least the ones that I am aware of.

 

[IceHogsFan]

Yeah avoiding work after a tough day yesterday.



My point is that the rising costs are due to the rising is due to all the things associated to the schools that are not associated with the private schools. Such things that I listed. If you broke down the cost of the private schools tution, and what it paid for and applied that directly to what the public schools pay for those things, I bet it's a very diffrent ball game.



Such as, Tuition goes toward, Books, teachers, facilities.



I bet for the public school systems the cost of books per child is probably reletively similar, if not less due to buying in bulk. The cost of teachers is less, and as for the facilities, if you took it by number of children I'd bet it was much less. As in. for every 100,000 private schools spend on facilities you have 10 kids, where public schools have 50....



Again the costs start escalating for public schools because of everything they have to pay for that the private schools don't. It's not a fair comparison. You want a la carte education and it's just not going to happen. You can't only pay for what you want to use. Because then you don't have the money for the who system. And a lot will fall through the cracks, hell a lot already does.



I can't think of a good comparison but to me it's like cable packages. I know you all hate them, and at times I do as well. But you don't get to pick and choose what channels you get. If you did, then there would be no new channels because no one would pay for them. And a lot of really good channels wouldn't exist because people wouldn't be paying for them with the rest of their channels. Some people can afford Premium channels, and that's great, more power to them, but they don't just get the higher tier channels without the rest of the system. Now on top of that you can't just say I want HBO and only HBO without paying for any other channel.





Damn it, ranty again.

We look at things thru different specs. Yes some children are distruptive, yes some students need special attention compared to others but the cost still comes down to per student. There is a huge disparity there and more then enough to provide those items you discussed.

 

[supraman]

Yeah avoiding work after a tough day yesterday.



My point is that the rising costs are due to the rising is due to all the things associated to the schools that are not associated with the private schools. Such things that I listed. If you broke down the cost of the private schools tution, and what it paid for and applied that directly to what the public schools pay for those things, I bet it's a very diffrent ball game.



Such as, Tuition goes toward, Books, teachers, facilities.



I bet for the public school systems the cost of books per child is probably reletively similar, if not less due to buying in bulk. The cost of teachers is less, and as for the facilities, if you took it by number of children I'd bet it was much less. As in. for every 100,000 private schools spend on facilities you have 10 kids, where public schools have 50....



Again the costs start escalating for public schools because of everything they have to pay for that the private schools don't. It's not a fair comparison. You want a la carte education and it's just not going to happen. You can't only pay for what you want to use. Because then you don't have the money for the who system. And a lot will fall through the cracks, hell a lot already does.



I can't think of a good comparison but to me it's like cable packages. I know you all hate them, and at times I do as well. But you don't get to pick and choose what channels you get. If you did, then there would be no new channels because no one would pay for them. And a lot of really good channels wouldn't exist because people wouldn't be paying for them with the rest of their channels. Some people can afford Premium channels, and that's great, more power to them, but they don't just get the higher tier channels without the rest of the system. Now on top of that you can't just say I want HBO and only HBO without paying for any other channel.





Damn it, ranty again.

Aha but there was legislation to make you able to buy certain channels only. dunno where it went but yeah it got put out there

 

[R K]

We look at things thru different specs. Yes some children are distruptive, yes some students need special attention compared to others but the cost still comes down to per student. There is a huge disparity there and more then enough to provide those items you discussed.

Are you aware of IEP.



In some cases it does not come down to individual students. Infact far from it.

 

[MassHavoc]

We look at things thru different specs. Yes some children are distruptive, yes some students need special attention compared to others but the cost still comes down to per student. There is a huge disparity there and more then enough to provide those items you discussed.

No there isn't. I explain why it costs more for a public school kid. It's the same reason why when companies blow up and get bigger their costs go up as well. It comes down to cost because it cost more to run the public school system that is geared to teach every child. The costs are going to be higher. If public schools decided that they were only going to tech certain kids, you can guarantee that it wouldn't cost as much as private schools.



Break down these imaginary costs for me. Show me this huge disparity. I've already explained the reason why it cost more. Yet you keep trying to say that the costs incurred by the public school system which the private school system don't count when factoring in the cost per child. BS. Take out all the costs to the public school system that the private system doesn't have to pay for and I will almost guarantee you the true cost per child is less.



So let's get back to your what your original statement is. Private schools do more with less. No.... they do more with more. They have more teachers per student. more money focused on the actual teaching part of education, they have more qualified teachers. They have more opportunities and resources available to them.... why is all this. Because they PAY MORE.



You aren't comparing apples to apples. You can't say that it cost child A 10k a year, for ABC and it only cost Child B 8k a year for AB. So B is obviously doing more with less.

 

[MassHavoc]

Aha but there was legislation to make you able to buy certain channels only. dunno where it went but yeah it got put out there

Exactly, you don't know where it went, you know how many times that's tried to happen. Not as many as it's been stuffed in a box and mailed to nowheresville.

 

[Pez68]

I disagree. That comes from the parents. I suppose if you don't want to be a parent then you must rely on someone else to teach your children those traits. No thanks.

Bingo.

 

[Tater]

I disagree. That comes from the parents. I suppose if you don't want to be a parent then you must rely on someone else to teach your children those traits. No thanks.

But, but, but..... Hillary says it takes a village!

 

[IceHogsFan]

Are you aware of IEP?

I am not, please share.

 

[R K]

I am not, please share.

in a nut shell





IEP stands for Individualized Education Program (alternatively called an "Individualized Education Plan," "Individual Education Plan," or some combination thereof). This is a legally binding document that spells out exactly what special education services your child will receive and why. It will include your child's classification, placement, services such as a one-on-one aide and therapies, academic and behavioral goals, a behavior plan if needed, percentage of time in regular education, and progress reports from teacher. The IEP is planned at an IEP meeting.



The individualized part of IEP means that the plan has to be tailored specifically to your child's special needs -- not to the needs of the teacher, or the school, or the district. Goals, modifications, accommodations, personnel, placement, all should be selected, enforced and maintained with the particular needs of your child in mind. "We don't do that," for example, is not an individualized response. If your school has never had a child like yours (and since your child is an individual, they haven't), and now they do, and a service is appropriate to his or her needs, then they do do that now.



This is funded completely different and also I'm 100% sure not factored into your "expense report" or article above.



It can follow a Student through every grade and is set up per specific students. Again funded completely separate.



It's not so cut and dry to say .... "Public School costs this per student, where as Private School cost's this.



There are tangibles out there that do indeed make those "random assumptions" incorrect.



For you it's very expensive to send your child to private school because whether you like it or not you are paying to have all those other children in public school through your property taxes.



I know you guys personally and can most certain say you are GOOD parents. That said I do not want my Schools teaching my kids what "THEY THINK" is respect and good citizenship, rather "I" want to be the one teaching that. It's my JOB!



Thier job is to teach them Math, History, Science, English and the basic SKILLS they will need in life. The moral, ethical and other skills are OUR jobs as parents.



The first person to issue my child a drug test will be the last. UNLESS there are specific circumstances leading to such test. The first person to Discipline my child with ANY form of physicality will be the last as welll. That's MY JOB!

 

[MassHavoc]

ANNNNDD ON top of everything, you are quoting Fox news, who knows where they are getting their numbers from, but I prefer statistical

analysis. IES gives us this.



Average Private School Tuition: 2007-08

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_059.asp



All Private Schools

K-12 Schools $10,045



Catholic School

K-12 $9,066



In 2010, the public education system spent approximately $10,614 per pupil.



I'd say that's pretty dang close. And when you factor in the things that I mention that private schools don't have to pay for. Well, again, it's not as cheap as they make it look.

 

[IceHogsFan]

Your Guide to understanding education in Illinois

 

[IceHogsFan]

ANNNNDD ON top of everything, you are quoting Fox news, who knows where they are getting their numbers from, but I prefer statistical

analysis. IES gives us this.



Average Private School Tuition: 2007-08

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_059.asp



All Private Schools

K-12 Schools $10,045



Catholic School

K-12 $9,066



In 2010, the public education system spent approximately $10,614 per pupil.



I'd say that's pretty dang close. And when you factor in the things that I mention that private schools don't have to pay for. Well, again, it's not as cheap as they make it look.

Really, a retort is its Fox News? Good discussion until I read that.

 

[Pez68]

By the way, Mass is dead on in his arguments. You cannot compare the two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to first be accepted into a private school to even attend? That right there is enough for the disparity in test scores... Even if you don't have to technically be accepted, parents aren't going to spend the extra money on private school if their kid is just passing through with C's and D's... The kids that go to private schools are typically already doing well in school beforehand. Whether that be public, or private.



Then you have to take into account the number of **** ups and drop outs that attend public schools. You know, all those kids whose parents are also **** ups, and don't give a shit about their education, or their well being? Public school test scores are ALWAYS lower because you've got a large percentage of kids there that just don't give a shit, and are a product of their upbringing. But those kids still take the tests, and their scores are still counted. If you want an accurate comparison between public and private schools, you should be looking at the top end of the scores, not the averages. It just isn't fair to compare the averages.



By the way, I was a product of public school my entire life. I was always in the top one percentile of the nation in my testing, and scored a 33 on my ACT. Both of which were higher than anyone I knew in Catholic school. The quality of education given by public schools is no worse than the quality of education given by private schools. The difference is all in the parenting and the averages in public school being dragged down by those that don't give a ****, and don't want to be there.

 

[IceHogsFan]

in a nut shell





IEP stands for Individualized Education Program (alternatively called an "Individualized Education Plan," "Individual Education Plan," or some combination thereof). This is a legally binding document that spells out exactly what special education services your child will receive and why. It will include your child's classification, placement, services such as a one-on-one aide and therapies, academic and behavioral goals, a behavior plan if needed, percentage of time in regular education, and progress reports from teacher. The IEP is planned at an IEP meeting.



The individualized part of IEP means that the plan has to be tailored specifically to your child's special needs -- not to the needs of the teacher, or the school, or the district. Goals, modifications, accommodations, personnel, placement, all should be selected, enforced and maintained with the particular needs of your child in mind. "We don't do that," for example, is not an individualized response. If your school has never had a child like yours (and since your child is an individual, they haven't), and now they do, and a service is appropriate to his or her needs, then they do do that now.



This is funded completely different and also I'm 100% sure not factored into your "expense report" or article above.



It can follow a Student through every grade and is set up per specific students. Again funded completely separate.



It's not so cut and dry to say .... "Public School costs this per student, where as Private School cost's this.



There are tangibles out there that do indeed make those "random assumptions" incorrect.



For you it's very expensive to send your child to private school because whether you like it or not you are paying to have all those other children in public school through your property taxes.



I know you guys personally and can most certain say you are GOOD parents. That said I do not want my Schools teaching my kids what "THEY THINK" is respect and good citizenship, rather "I" want to be the one teaching that. It's my JOB!



Thier job is to teach them Math, History, Science, English and the basic SKILLS they will need in life. The moral, ethical and other skills are OUR jobs as parents.



The first person to issue my child a drug test will be the last. UNLESS there are specific circumstances leading to such test. The first person to Discipline my child with ANY form of physicality will be the last as welll. That's MY JOB!

Quite interesting. Thanks for the education (pun intended).

 

[MassHavoc]

Really, a retort is its Fox News? Good discussion until I read that.

It's not a retort, but a fact that I found actual statistics that refute the fox new report. But I guess you get so focued on one thing. How about the fact that you haven't really responded to any of my posts until you saw fox news, then decided to put your two cents in. NO matter who it was I did my own investigate and dug up real number. Where as you took a fox news report and ran with it, and really haven't done much else to debate any of my alternate points.

 

[IceHogsFan]

By the way, I was a product of public school my entire life. I was always in the top one percentile of the nation in my testing, and scored a 33 on my ACT. Both of which were higher than anyone I knew in Catholic school. The quality of education given by public schools is no worse than the quality of education given by private schools. The difference is all in the parenting and the averages in public school being dragged down by those that don't give a ****, and don't want to be there.

I am also a product of the public school system and I disagree that there is no difference in the quality of education between public and private overall.

 

[R K]

By the way, Mass is dead on in his arguments. You cannot compare the two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to first be accepted into a private school to even attend? That right there is enough for the disparity in test scores... Even if you don't have to technically be accepted, parents aren't going to spend the extra money on private school if their kid is just passing through with C's and D's... The kids that go to private schools are typically already doing well in school beforehand. Whether that be public, or private.



Then you have to take into account the number of **** ups and drop outs that attend public schools. You know, all those kids whose parents are also **** ups, and don't give a shit about their education, or their well being? Public school test scores are ALWAYS lower because you've got a large percentage of kids there that just don't give a shit, and are a product of their upbringing. But those kids still take the tests, and their scores are still counted. If you want an accurate comparison between public and private schools, you should be looking at the top end of the scores, not the averages. It just isn't fair to compare the averages.



By the way, I was a product of public school my entire life. I was always in the top one percentile of the nation in my testing, and scored a 33 on my ACT. Both of which were higher than anyone I knew in Catholic school. The quality of education given by public schools is no worse than the quality of education given by private schools. The difference is all in the parenting and the averages in public school being dragged down by those that don't give a ****, and don't want to be there.

Oh damn we are all fucked!

Kidding aside I dropped out of PUBLIC HIGHSCHOOL.... Went on for two Bachelors a Masters and scored in the 98th percentile in the COUNTRY on the LSAT.



Public School in the Northern Suburbs of Chicago, was and I believe still is one of the BEST educationals systems in the Country.



Why? Because they have the property tax revenue to be so. The largest difference in many of the "Public School" scenarios is the INCOME directly paid to the system itself through Property Taxes.

 

[IceHogsFan]

It's not a retort, but a fact that I found actual statistics that refute the fox new report. But I guess you get so focued on one thing. How about the fact that you haven't really responded to any of my posts until you saw fox news, then decided to put your two cents in. NO matter who it was I did my own investigate and dug up real number. Where as you took a fox news report and ran with it, and really haven't done much else to debate any of my alternate points.

Ignorance is believing only one news source. Fox is news just like MSNBC, CNN, HNN, etc. If you are not watching all of them then you are only getting some news. The fact that your numbers are not identical to story I linked to proves that there is a disparity and still a significant one at that.



Back to our regularly scheduled debate.