Game of Thrones Thread

[nc0gnet0]

Oh, that's what he was doing when he killed her aunt and forced her to marry a madman who viciously raped her. Pfff, and I thought he was just using her.


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Isn't that what you to when you love a woman, ship her off to be another man's sex toy? Have his children? Etc etc.......It's all for the lessons after all....

 

[nc0gnet0]

I think he's real close to getting over that love thing.


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Spoiler

abouot two episodes lol, but I can already tell you know that

 

[ShiftyDevil]

Yes agreed he is slightly different in the books although I would still say it's not a matter of growth but simply which aspect of his personality is being presented. In short, Jaime is chivalrous in general but a coward/impotent when it comes to his family and sister in particular. He's been that way from the start and nothing has really changed. Away from his sister, you see the chivalry come out more but once he is back around his sister, the cowardice and impotence returns.

There is no real growth there until he grows the balls to stand up to his sister which remains to be seen.

I got a completely different read apparently. He genuinely loves his two siblings which puts him in quite the position considering Cersei has basically descended it dictator levels of borderline madness and Tyrion is helping to lead the invasion of his homeland. I'm curious to see how Jaime's story ends up and which sibling he's going to side with, assuming he doesn't just randomly die at some point, because that's always on the table with this show.

As far as Dany and Jon, I don't know, those two feel a lot closer to bog standard fantasy tropes; and I personally really don't like classical fantasy stuff. It may hurt that neither one is played by particularly skilled actors. They aren't bad, they're perfectly fine actors, but compared to the people around them? Well GoT is a pretty rough show to be on if you're just OK.

There is a definite redemption arc in the books, as GRMM has said as much. You can argue it is not was well portrayed in the show version, and I could agree with you, but it is still there. But there is no question that he is not without hope, but he is still torn between love and doing the right thing.

I don't know if it's weird or not, but I don't *really* think Jaime needs much redemption. The only actually awful thing I remember him doing is defenestrating Bran. ...Jesus, only on this show is attempted child murder not really all that bad. I think his arc is more about dealing with an impossible family and dealing with society's views on right/wrong vs honorable/dishonorable.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I got a completely different read apparently. He genuinely loves his two siblings which puts him in quite the position considering Cersei has basically descended it dictator levels of borderline madness and Tyrion is helping to lead the invasion of his homeland. I'm curious to see how Jaime's story ends up and which sibling he's going to side with, assuming he doesn't just randomly die at some point, because that's always on the table with this show.

As far as Dany and Jon, I don't know, those two feel a lot closer to bog standard fantasy tropes; and I personally really don't like classical fantasy stuff. It may hurt that neither one is played by particularly skilled actors. They aren't bad, they're perfectly fine actors, but compared to the people around them? Well GoT is a pretty rough show to be on if you're just OK.



I don't know if it's weird or not, but I don't *really* think Jaime needs much redemption. The only actually awful thing I remember him doing is defenestrating Bran. ...Jesus, only on this show is attempted child murder not really all that bad. I think his arc is more about dealing with an impossible family and dealing with society's views on right/wrong vs honorable/dishonorable.

There was that incident with Ned Stark in the first episode where Ned got stabbed in the Leg.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I got a completely different read apparently. He genuinely loves his two siblings which puts him in quite the position considering Cersei has basically descended it dictator levels of borderline madness and Tyrion is helping to lead the invasion of his homeland. I'm curious to see how Jaime's story ends up and which sibling he's going to side with, assuming he doesn't just randomly die at some point, because that's always on the table with this show.

As far as Dany and Jon, I don't know, those two feel a lot closer to bog standard fantasy tropes; and I personally really don't like classical fantasy stuff. It may hurt that neither one is played by particularly skilled actors. They aren't bad, they're perfectly fine actors, but compared to the people around them? Well GoT is a pretty rough show to be on if you're just OK.



I don't know if it's weird or not, but I don't *really* think Jaime needs much redemption. The only actually awful thing I remember him doing is defenestrating Bran. ...Jesus, only on this show is attempted child murder not really all that bad. I think his arc is more about dealing with an impossible family and dealing with society's views on right/wrong vs honorable/dishonorable.

Can't disagree with any of that. I do think there will still be that 1 single major act of redemption for him.... for the child murder attempt thing.


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[nc0gnet0]

As far as Dany and Jon, I don't know, those two feel a lot closer to bog standard fantasy tropes; and I personally really don't like classical fantasy stuff

I would agree with this, with the exception when they find out they are nephew and Aunt, that might throw a major twist into things........

 

[number51]

We don't have to go back and forth because nothing you said here actually contradicts anything I said. Being a teacher/mentor does not preclude one from being a selfish, ruthless, power hungry, dick.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/teaches

You are imagining some mutually exclusive dynamic between being a teacher and douche that is not actually present. One can be both.



Except it's not an interpretation at all. I am curious as to what you guys are calling an interpretation. The only response to my posts have been people crying about how LF is a douche which is irrelevant. I've had plenty of teachers that I hated and thought were douchebags.

And leave all the personal commentary out of it. Swooping in to complain about me when we are discussing fictional characters is a bit much don't you think. Particularly when it is devoid of any actual rebuttal to what I am saying.

Ugh! I love you Remy, but you are the worst.

Did your douchebags teachers know they were your teachers? Were they being paid to teach you, were they intentionally teaching you. Yes you can learn from jerks, no one said otherwise. It was in their best interest to teach you. Thank you for clearing up that non-issue.

I don't think LF thinks he is a mentor, teacher, helper. I think he was pretending to be an advisor, but Sansa isn't buying it anymore. LF's motives are that same as they have always been, since long before he ever met a Stark.

My opinion on LF's motives.

Remy is not letting this go is he?

 

[number51]

I was probably watching the episodes where LF explained the Game to her when she questioned him about various things. In so doing, he was imparting knowledge to her.

Now she says he always wants something in return, she does not sound grateful. It's almost like Sansa thinks his lessons are not worth the price. Sansa Knows what LF knows, he's nobody teacher.

 

[ZOMBIE@CTESPN]

It's been awhile since hawk has replied to anyone anyone else waiting for two pages of replies lol

 

[remydat]

The second littlefinger gave Sansa to the bastard was when she took control over her own life. She learned from experience and she has experienced allot. I can't underestimate littlefinger ever but it seems it's Sansa now manipulating lf not the other way around. But I keep going back to how good of is ar playing the game of thrones. The wild card is bran who lf never could have planned for a stark soothsayer. Is this how he finally loses or does he even manipulate bran

No doubt that Sansa is wise to the game and that she is manipulating him. If LF was completely objective, he would have let Ramsey kill Snow and then routed Ramsey's army afterwards. Instead his obsession with Sansa made him act too quickly in that regard and at this point she knows it. It's just a question of whether he will sway here to the darkside so to speak or whether she will use her power over him now to completely turn the tables on him.

Is he imparting knowledge to her or manipulating her?

Both. Again, those things are not mutually exclusive. I think LF gets off on the idea that he's manipulating or fooling people that he's given them clues to not trust him. Betraying Ned or his battle with Varys wouldn't be so sweet if he hadn't told Ned not to trust him or if he hadn't explained to Varys that Chaos is a ladder.

So part of his manipulations are entirely dependent on his making his opponent aware of the danger he poses and it's a question of whether they heed his warnings or not. I just think with Sansa that he's given more than he has with most and that is what will undo him.

 

[remydat]

Oh, that's what he was doing when he killed her aunt and forced her to marry a madman who viciously raped her. Pfff, and I thought he was just using her.

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You mean the same aunt that Sansa could have easily said LF killed to be free of him but then instead lied and backed him up on the basis that she knew what LF wanted but didn't know what the Vale lords wanted.

Further, he never forced her to marry Ramsey. He made his case for why she should and she ended up making the decision herself because that is what LF does. He doesn't really force people to do anything. He plants the seed in their head and then eventually they make the choice themselves.

I agree with this, if Sansa has learned anything, it is from Cersei. I don't see Sansa manipulating people under false pretense, as this would be what she would have learned from LF.

I'm not so sure LF was so much into teaching Sansa, as opposed to trying to gain her trust/ear. I guess Sansa did learn a little from LF come to think of it, as she played him brilliantly to get the Vale forces when she needed them (although she should have never kept that from Jon).

She clearly manipulated the Vale lords to keep LF in power because she knew what LF wanted. Otherwise, she would have told the truth about her aunt. She is not some honest and forthright girl. That shit is what got her father killed. She's learned from LF that the truth is not always worth telling and she clearly proved that when she lied about what happened to her aunt and then was subsequently able to benefit from that lie by having LF come to her and Snow's rescue. If she had told the truth about LF, Snow would have ended up dead because the Vale lords were not going to come to their aid when they had remained neutral. That lie/manipulation was necessary to ensure she had an ally albeit a shady one controlling the Vale army.

Likewise, she wasn't forced to marry Ramsey. She listened to LF arguments and thought they made sense with one or both of them unaware of his cruelty. That was a calculation she made that simply backfired for a time but it was one she made just the same after hearing his advice. No different than when LF told her he could help her escape KL and she initially refused him and he didn't force her. He just planted the seed and waited to see if it would bare fruit.

 

[remydat]

There is a definite redemption arc in the books, as GRMM has said as much. You can argue it is not was well portrayed in the show version, and I could agree with you, but it is still there. But there is no question that he is not without hope, but he is still torn between love and doing the right thing.

Redemption from what? No one knows about his crime and again he was already chivalrous when he killed the mad King even at the cost of his honor. My point is not that he's good or bad. My point is he's the same Jamie he's always been. The same Jamie that killed the Mad King is the same Jamie that could befriend Brienne.

Jamie's character flaw is his sister and family. He is willing to do truly awfully things or allow them to do truly awful things and that is still the case here. His son literally killed himself because of his mother and Jamie is still right there by her side. Cersei fucks other dudes and basically promises Euron some pussy in front of him and all he does is give Euron an evil look and not his sister.

 

[dweebs19]

Am I the only person in America who has never watched this show?

nah...my wife tried watching the first two episodes and she decided that it wasn't for her. Now she thinks I'm weird that I have a routine every Sunday night to sit in front of the tv.

 

[remydat]

I got a completely different read apparently. He genuinely loves his two siblings which puts him in quite the position considering Cersei has basically descended it dictator levels of borderline madness and Tyrion is helping to lead the invasion of his homeland. I'm curious to see how Jaime's story ends up and which sibling he's going to side with, assuming he doesn't just randomly die at some point, because that's always on the table with this show.

As far as Dany and Jon, I don't know, those two feel a lot closer to bog standard fantasy tropes; and I personally really don't like classical fantasy stuff. It may hurt that neither one is played by particularly skilled actors. They aren't bad, they're perfectly fine actors, but compared to the people around them? Well GoT is a pretty rough show to be on if you're just OK.

I don't know if it's weird or not, but I don't *really* think Jaime needs much redemption. The only actually awful thing I remember him doing is defenestrating Bran. ...Jesus, only on this show is attempted child murder not really all that bad. I think his arc is more about dealing with an impossible family and dealing with society's views on right/wrong vs honorable/dishonorable.

See but this is the point I am making. You are saying he doesn't need much redemption but then what is the growth you are seeing from him? Again my point is there has always been two Jamie's. The Jamie that exists independent of his sister and the Jamie that is in love with his sister. The former Jamie was always there as we saw him kill the mad king at great personal risk to his reputation. The latter Jamie has always been there as we saw him try and kill Bran and sit silently as Cersei has become a monster, as one son became a monster, and as the other son committed suicide rather than spend another day with Cersei.

Maybe it's semantics but I consider personal growth to be when a character actually grows from being say immature or selfish/evil to be a more mature or good person. I don't see that with Jamie. He's always had good in him and he still remains a character whose ultimate goodness is overruled by his incestuous love of his sister. That has yet to change over the course of the TV show. Maybe I just misinterpreted it but people were making it sound like he was some evil character that became good. I'm saying he's the same guy. The more time he is depicted away from his sister, the more people just see that he's just a good dude with a shitty fucking family.

 

[Warden of the Northeast]

Leak yet?

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Eh, no, that isn't exactly what I said. I said "maybe that's partly why I avoid it", not "that's certainly the entire reason I avoid it".

I've never been interested in fantasy stuff, and reading some of the posts in this thread, it does appear there's an element of magic/fantasy in it. If I liked the sound of the show I would have watched at the beginning before it outgrew Hinduism, Roman Catholicism and Adele in its following.



You're probably right. I tried BB but wasn't hooked, and TWD is of absolutely zero interest to me for reasons mentioned above.

I did binge watch Shameless and Girls though

If Fiona was blonde with fire breathing dragons, I bet you'd like her a lot more.


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[remydat]

Ugh! I love you Remy, but you are the worst.

Did your douchebags teachers know they were your teachers? Were they being paid to teach you, were they intentionally teaching you. Yes you can learn from jerks, no one said otherwise. It was in their best interest to teach you. Thank you for clearing up that non-issue.

I don't think LF thinks he is a mentor, teacher, helper. I think he was pretending to be an advisor, but Sansa isn't buying it anymore. LF's motives are that same as they have always been, since long before he ever met a Stark.

My opinion on LF's motives.

Remy is not letting this go is he?

Not sure why it is up to me to let anything go. You either want to discuss it or you don't but spare me the notion that somehow I am forcing you to respond. In that regard, you are acting like one of LF's victims when LF has made it clear to them not to trust him. LF plants the seed, someone makes the decision and then they cry after the fact when shit blows up. Case in point, no one forced Sansa to marry Ramsey just as no one is forcing you to continue to respond.

All I will say is nothing you just said changes the fact he has taught her. No one used the term teacher in the sense that he was a paid professional so you trying to bring in the modern student/teacher relationship and apply it to a fantasy setting is silly. Furthermore, it is in the best interest of a modern teacher to teach you because they receive a salary as a reward. So even by you rationale, a teacher teaches because they get something out of it unless you know a lot of teachers that are teaching for free. This would be like saying Bron doesn't get anything out of defending Jamie as if money is not a reward. Just about everyone that teaches someone is getting some sort of benefit monetary or otherwise out of it. Sorry bro.

Now she says he always wants something in return, she does not sound grateful. It's almost like Sansa thinks his lessons are not worth the price. Sansa Knows what LF knows, he's nobody teacher.

Again what does this have to do with anything. Yes people generally want something in return when they teach just as today's teachers want a salary and pension. And many kids today don't sound grateful to their teachers but that doesn't change the fact the person is teaching them.

I again refer you back to the definition. You keep trying to introduce things that have nothing to do with whether someone is someone else's teacher.

Make a logical argument for why Sansa has learned nothing from LF. Do that and you would actually be addressing the point made. Otherwise, you are just explaining why you don't like LF, you are not explaining why he's not one of Sansa's teachers.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I think Bronn gonna be captured with Jamie and just switch sides lol.... Tyrion will say something going back to his season 1 with Bronn like "Didn't I tell you if anyone offered you more I would double it?"

Soooo.... 2 Castles?


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[ShiftyDevil]

See but this is the point I am making. You are saying he doesn't need much redemption but then what is the growth you are seeing from him? Again my point is there has always been two Jamie's. The Jamie that exists independent of his sister and the Jamie that is in love with his sister. The former Jamie was always there as we saw him kill the mad king at great personal risk to his reputation. The latter Jamie has always been there as we saw him try and kill Bran and sit silently as Cersei has become a monster, as one son became a monster, and as the other son committed suicide rather than spend another day with Cersei.

Maybe it's semantics but I consider personal growth to be when a character actually grows from being say immature or selfish/evil to be a more mature or good person. I don't see that with Jamie. He's always had good in him and he still remains a character whose ultimate goodness is overruled by his incestuous love of his sister. That has yet to change over the course of the TV show. Maybe I just misinterpreted it but people were making it sound like he was some evil character that became good. I'm saying he's the same guy. The more time he is depicted away from his sister, the more people just see that he's just a good dude with a shitty fucking family.

It seems like you're equating Bad Guy ------> Good Guy (or vice versa) as the primary means characters grow. I think that's pretty reductionist. None of the primary characters in this show are a purely good or bad person. There are a lot of ways to grow and deal with shit in this particular world these characters inhabit. So watching how Jaime deals with all the shit in his family, or how he dealt with situations like the whole Katelyn Stark/Stark kids/Brienne situation, to where he is now? Maybe it's also because I've read the books so I have that influencing my read on the character but I think he's a hell of a lot different now as compared to when he chucked Bran out a window.

 

[remydat]

It seems like you're equating Bad Guy ------> Good Guy (or vice versa) as the primary means characters grow. I think that's pretty reductionist. None of the primary characters in this show are a purely good or bad person. There are a lot of ways to grow and deal with shit in this particular world these characters inhabit. So watching how Jaime deals with all the shit in his family, or how he dealt with situations like the whole Katelyn Stark/Stark kids/Brienne situation, to where he is now? Maybe it's also because I've read the books so I have that influencing my read on the character but I think he's a hell of a lot different now as compared to when he chucked Bran out a window.

No I am saying that is what I think people are thinking. I've explained why there has always been two Jamie's. If you want to explain what you mean by growth then by all means do so.

However, my point is Jamie has always been an honorable guy outside of his shit with Cersei. So what makes you think there would have been a difference in his behavior? This is the same guy that risked his honor to kill the Mad King before the show started so that same Jamie would have treated Brienne the same. The only time he's really ever been a douche is due to Cersei.

So I don't see growth. All I see is that later on in the books and movies, the reader/watcher sees Jamie more and more away from Cersei so we see that he's a decent dude without her influence which has always been the case. My point is his character did not change so much as the situation he was in did (ie spending more time away from Cersei).