Game of Thrones Thread

[remydat]

What? Foreshadowing does not equal character growth? Where did I ever say it did?. What is foreshadowed is the fact he will eventually leave Cersei, thus completing his redemption arc, or at least taking a big step in doing so. The foreshadowing is giving us clues into what Jamie is thinking, along with how he interacts with others. The fact that he is not progressing as fast as you seem to think he should is irrelevant to the process, the process is happening, none the less. I am not saying that there was never a good side to jamie, but rather there has been a progression and growth in that side of him from season one up until now. There is no given time line as to how fast this progression has to take place, and if or not he regress's at certain points in the arc. The fact remains it is still there.

Then I am not sure why you brought it up because I never said events were not foreshadowed. And once again, show me the showrunners saying this otherwise, it's just your opinion. You tried to suggest this was similar to the showrunners saying LF was Sansa's devious teacher and suggested I was ignoring what the showrunners said. So produce them saying this or admit you exaggerated.

It sounds like what you meant to say is I am ignoring what your interpretation of what the showrunners intend which is an entirely different argument. On the one hand I have produced what Martin and the Showrunners actually said about LF and his relationship with Sansa and you want me to disregard it. On the other hand, you are passing off your interpretation of the showrunner's intent as what they actually said and then expecting me to just accept it.

I am fully aware that others may see Jamie as being on some redemptive arc. I am fully aware that that may even be the intent of the Martin and the showrunners. I am simply saying, you have produced no direct statement from them confirming this fact like you seemed to suggest you had and I am saying Jamie can't really be redeemed from my perspective at this point when he's sat idly by and let his sister and son run rampant.

Others are free to disagree but again, my ability to buy into some redemption of Jamie ended as his last son was plummeting to his death and before he hit the pavement below. There may have been a chance had Jamie acted like a man and slapped some sense into Cersei but instead he continued to behave like a cuckold. His character is ruined for me. He's a pathetic and cowardly man who could never stand up to his sister as she destroyed their family. Any sort of redemption will be too little too late from my perspective.

In fact, I find him more pathetic than Theon because at least Theon was brutally tortured into submission and is showing some attempt to actually break free from that submission by freeing Sansa. He then backed done from Euron but then returned to Dany looking for him to free his sister. So he's not completely cured but you can see him struggling with himself to find a way back. Jamie was not tortured. He just became a pathetic and cowardly ***** regarding his sister by choice. He's had plenty of opportunities to stand up to her and he does nothing.

 

[The Hawk]

Jon had that with Ygritte and now with Dany.

Certainly with Ygritte. And speaking about her, she had a good role as a witch in the movie the Last Witch Hunter. Also old man Tarley's son,, "Dickon" had a big role as a pirate in the series Black Sails.

 

[The Hawk]

There will be no rescue attempt. Jaime and Bronn are prisoners of war, not to mention the snake is good as dead already.

We do not know if they are taken prisoner and there certainly will be a rescue operation. I could be Jamie killing the mother snake for her killing of his daughter but sparing the young snake as a favor to Bronn.

 

[The Hawk]

Christ, your posts are awful.

Blow me.

 

[remydat]

I don't care if his feelings are complicated. That will be simplified when she orders him killed. You've been positing that he taught and groomed her, it didn't happen like that. This was never a teacher/student relationship.

Please direct any further commentary on this subject to the showrunner that says LF was her devious teacher. Thank you in advance.

 

[The Hawk]

that comment was directed at you so your reply confuses me........as for your probably I cannot comment without spoiler tags......

Want to try that again? Your post is the thing that is confusing. What are you meaning to say?

 

[Ares]

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

We do not know if they are taken prisoner and there certainly will be a rescue operation. I could be Jamie killing the mother snake for her killing of his daughter but sparing the young snake as a favor to Bronn.

Christ....

 

[The Hawk]

I don't care if his feelings are complicated. That will be simplified when she orders him killed. You've been positing that he taught and groomed her, it didn't happen like that. This was never a teacher/student relationship.

I don't see Littlefinger as a teacher. I see him as a pure manipulator who uses people to get what he himself wants. From the "master of coin" to the Lord of the Vale and ultimately the King of the North then the KIng of the Iron Throne. That is his career path.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Then I am not sure why you brought it up because I never said events were not foreshadowed. And once again, show me the showrunners saying this otherwise, it's just your opinion. You tried to suggest this was similar to the showrunners saying LF was Sansa's devious teacher and suggested I was ignoring what the showrunners said. So produce them saying this or admit you exaggerated.

It sounds like what you meant to say is I am ignoring what your interpretation of what the showrunners intend which is an entirely different argument. On the one hand I have produced what Martin and the Showrunners actually said about LF and his relationship with Sansa and you want me to disregard it. On the other hand, you are passing off your interpretation of the showrunner's intent as what they actually said and then expecting me to just accept it.

I am fully aware that others may see Jamie as being on some redemptive arc. I am fully aware that that may even be the intent of the Martin and the showrunners. I am simply saying, you have produced no direct statement from them confirming this fact like you seemed to suggest you had and I am saying Jamie can't really be redeemed from my perspective at this point when he's sat idly by and let his sister and son run rampant.

Others are free to disagree but again, my ability to buy into some redemption of Jamie ended as his last son was plummeting to his death and before he hit the pavement below. There may have been a chance had Jamie acted like a man and slapped some sense into Cersei but instead he continued to behave like a cuckold. His character is ruined for me. He's a pathetic and cowardly man who could never stand up to his sister as she destroyed their family. Any sort of redemption will be too little too late from my perspective.

In fact, I find him more pathetic than Theon because at least Theon was brutally tortured into submission and is showing some attempt to actually break free from that submission by freeing Sansa. He then backed done from Euron but then returned to Dany looking for him to free his sister. So he's not completely cured but you can see him struggling with himself to find a way back. Jamie was not tortured. He just became a pathetic and cowardly ***** regarding his sister by choice. He's had plenty of opportunities to stand up to her and he does nothing.

Yawn, yawn, and more yawn. Bolded is enough said on the matter. As I told you in the past, the evidence will be forthcomng, shortly.

 

[Ares]

 

[nc0gnet0]

Once again, Martin was commenting on their relationship in the show during Season 4 so yes it is complicated. This is confirmed by Martin and it's confirmed by the showrunner who says LF is Sansa's devious teacher. So I don't need a wall of text with your unfounded opinion. When you have something that overrides Martin and the showrunner get back to me.

.

Again, you fail to grasp even the simplest of concepts. At the point the Martin made his comments, the show-runners had been following his plot-line, so yes naturally he then got into the complex relationship that exist in the books. Up to that point, he had know foreknowledge of D&D's intent to deviate in the way they did. In the latter interview he was quite simply shocked at what they had done, as the Ramsay/Sansa plot line effectively nullified everything he had said in the interview you have posted. Not sure why that is so difficult a concept for you to grasp?


In other words Martin is saying, I thought they were going to zig, when instead they opted to zag. D & D effectively removed the complex relationship that existed in the books, and replaced it with a much more one dimensional LF, by virtue of the Ramsay/LF storyline. Again, you can't add a series of events that didn't happen in the books as profound as Sansa/Ramsay, without having consequences of the things that happed before it.

So the whole of your argument is LF loved and cared for Sansa, while at the same time was using her argument is asinine, as there is no way he could have held any feelings or goals for her when he decided to throw her away like a cheap piece of trash, with complete disregard.

 

[nc0gnet0]

hot

 

[remydat]

Yawn, yawn, and more yawn. Bolded is enough said on the matter. As I told you in the past, the evidence will be forthcomng, shortly.

Great so not sure why you keep trying to convince me with speculation instead of waiting on the evidence.

Again, you fail to grasp even the simplest of concepts. At the point the Martin made his comments, the show-runners had been following his plot-line, so yes naturally he then got into the complex relationship that exist in the books. Up to that point, he had know foreknowledge of D&D's intent to deviate in the way they did. He quite simply, was shocked at what they had done, as the Ramsay/Sansa plot line effectively nullified everything he had said in the interview you have posted. Not sure why that is so difficult a concept for you to grasp?


In other words Martin is saying, I thought they were going to zig, when instead they opted to zag. D & D effectively removed the complex relationship that existed in the books, and replaced it with a much more one dimensional LF. Again, you can't add a series of events that didn't happen in the books as profound as Sansa/Ramsay, without having consequences of the things that happed before it.

So the whole of your argument is LF loved and cared for Sansa, while at the same time was using her argument is asinine, as there is no way he could have held any feelings or goals for her when he decided to throw her away like a cheap piece of trash, with complete disregard.

Great show me where Martin says this or are you his PR rep?

The problem with your analysis is you have cherry picked and looked at just one statement. Martin's statement combined with the showrunner calling LF her teacher and saying LF's affection for her is his weakness clearly aligns with the idea that the relationship is complicated. Not just in the books but in the show as well because the showrunner and Martin were both commenting on the tv show not the books.

So no the Bolton thing does not invalidate that complexity. It just adds another layer to it because despite his affection and despite Sansa being his weakness, LF still took the risk he did. He already said earlier in the show that a lot of men don't risk anything but that he does. So the Bolton thing does not prove the relationship is not complicated. It merely proves as LF already told us, he is willing to take risks that other men would not and perhaps in this case, the cost of his doing so will be too great.

Finally, Sansa can't just unlearn all the things LF taught her simply because she decided to accept LF's advice on Bolton. The teaching and learning already occurred. The fact he taught her is set in stone. All she can do if she feels betrayed is to use everything he taught her as well as other things she's learned over the years to try and get her revenge. But she can't change the fact he taught her and neither can you.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Great so not sure why you keep trying to convince me with speculation instead of waiting on the evidence.

It happened in the books, it will happen in the show, it's not speculation.

 

[remydat]

It happened in the books, it will happen in the show, it's not speculation.

You just said the show diverged from the books on the point about LF and Sansa so yes it's speculation. You've got no clue how things will end. Further in the books, Tommen doesn't committ suicide due to his mother so the butterfly effect you keep referencing is huge.

Jamie in the books isn't as cowardly as Jamie in the TV show because Jamie in the books doesn't just blindly ignore the fact his son killed himself because of Cersei because his son is still alive. The Jamie in the books is on a completely different path than the Jamie in the TV show so Jamie in the books.

So again this is the problem with your analysis. When it suits you, you want to argue the books and TV show are different regarding LF and Sansa despite my evidence coming from what people said about the TV show not the books. Yet when it is clear that book Jamie is different from TV show Jamie, you completely disregard it and act like it is a fact that their redemption will play out the same despite the fact TV show Jamie cowardly did nothing as his son committed suicide.

 

[Ares]

Um FYI Sansa and Ramsay are not anywhere near eachother in the books....

Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole who went to King's Landing with her and Ned in book 1 is kept alive and poses as Arya Stark and marries Ramsay.... Theon later helps Jeyne Poole escape as he did with Sansa in the show.

There is no way to draw direct parallels to book and show as far as Sansa and Ramsay go because Sansa remains with Little Finger in the Vale thru the end of the 5th book, she is never the one to marry Ramsay.

 

[remydat]

Um FYI Sansa and Ramsay are not anywhere near eachother in the books....

Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole who went to King's Landing with her and Ned in book 1 is kept alive and poses as Arya Stark and marries Ramsay.... Theon later helps Jeyne Poole escape as he did with Sansa in the show.

There is no way to draw direct parallels to book and show as far as Sansa and Ramsay go because Sansa remains with Little Finger in the Vale thru the end of the 5th book, she is never the one to marry Ramsay.

In case this was meant for me. My comment about it being speculation was not about Sansa and LF being different in the books. I know they are because I read the books first. The dude was arguing that he knows how Jamie's redemptive arc will end because of the books and I was saying he just pointed out that the books and TV show diverge when it comes to LF and Sansa so not sure how he can just assume they won't diverge when it comes to book and TV show Jamie when TV show Jamie clearly has experienced things book Jamie has not. The below is the comment I am saying is speculation. Not LF and Sansa being different in the books. Again, just in case your comment was directed at me.

It happened in the books, it will happen in the show, it's not speculation.

 

[Ares]

In case this was meant for me. My comment about it being speculation was not about Sansa and LF being different in the books. I know they are because I read the books first. The dude was arguing that he knows how Jamie's redemptive arc will end because of the books and I was saying he just pointed out that the books and TV show diverge when it comes to LF and Sansa so not sure how he can just assume they won't diverge when it comes to book and TV show Jamie when TV show Jamie clearly has experienced things book Jamie has not. The below is the comment I am saying is speculation. Not LF and Sansa being different in the books. Again, just in case your comment was directed at me.

It was directed at both of you, cause it appeared like you guys were talking comparisons between how Sansa was thrown to Ramsay in the show vs in the book and I wanted to make sure we all understand, she had no part of marrying Ramsay in the book so the comparison literally has to end when Sansa's time in the Vale ends.... past that the show and book diverge extremely.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I am fully aware that others may see Jamie as being on some redemptive arc. I am fully aware that that may even be the intent of the Martin and the showrunners. I am simply saying, you have produced no direct statement from them confirming this fact like you seemed to suggest you had and I am saying Jamie can't really be redeemed from my perspective at this point when he's sat idly by and let his sister and son run rampant.

In the interview, Martin says he hopes to use the character of Jaime as a way to explore redemption.

One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible? ... Woody Allen: Is Woody Allen someone that we should laud, or someone that we should despise? Our society is full of people who have fallen in one way or another, and what do we do with these people? How many good acts make up for a bad act? ... I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then?

https://www.bustle.com/articles/221...me-lannister-to-woody-allen-joffrey-to-hitler

There is your proof, now STFU