Game of Thrones Thread

[Camden Cutler]

His dad tywin orchestrated everything including cersei and Robert getting married

i thought the mad king allowed jaime in the kingsguard to spite tywin? being that jaime was his eldest son and most desirable male heir...if anything tywin would want jaime off of the kingsguard asap

but what i was questioning iis how was jaime able to stay in the kingsguard even though he knowingly murdered the king...if a cia agent killed the president he would get a modern day lynching on live tv

is the kings guard something like being a maester? no matter what a maester is assigned to a certain castle no matter who is in charge...is the kingsguard similar?

 

[BearDown104]

Okay. You are correct and my theory was wrong.

We know, we've always known.

 

[remydat]

quick question for those game of thrones historians...if jaime is a known king slayer how is that he remained in the kings guard? no dishonorable discharge or anything..i mean he didn't even get a flogging...just stank face and a hurtful nickname

Well one because the Mad King was mad and two because it was part of the deal that Baratheon made with the Lannister's to secure support for his claim to the throne in the TV show. It was not a given that Robert become King because the Lannister's could also have laid claim to the throne but Tywin understoood that with Jamie being the Kingslayer and his other son being an imp, he didn't really have anyone to be heir. So instead, he backed Robert and arranged for his daughter to marry Robert with Jamie staying on as a Kingsguard.

In the books, Ned suggested to Robert that Jamie be forced to join the Night's Watch but Jon Arryn convinces Robert to pardon him and allow him to remain in the King's Guard which Tywin and Cersei obviously prefer as well. Presumably to secure the alliance between Robert and the Lannister's because he likely feared what Tywin would do if Jamie were executed or sent to the Night's Watch.

 

[xer0h0ur]

i thought the mad king allowed jaime in the kingsguard to spite tywin? being that jaime was his eldest son and most desirable male heir...if anything tywin would want jaime off of the kingsguard asap

but what i was questioning iis how was jaime able to stay in the kingsguard even though he knowingly murdered the king...if a cia agent killed the president he would get a modern day lynching on live tv

is the kings guard something like being a maester? no matter what a maester is assigned to a certain castle no matter who is in charge...is the kingsguard similar?

There is no precedent for such an action in the Kingsguard. In fact not only did Jamie not lose his position in the kingsguard...he was promoted to the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard by his son after Cersei hastened Robert's death.

 

[remydat]

Like a Faith Militant type MOD?

Nah, I have a stockpile of wildfire waiting so a Faith Militant don't scare me.

 

[Camden Cutler]

Well one because the Mad King was mad and two because it was part of the deal that Baratheon made with the Lannister's to secure support for his claim to the throne in the TV show. It was not a given that Robert become King because the Lannister's could also have laid claim to the throne but Tywin understoood that with Jamie being the Kingslayer and his other son being an imp, he didn't really have anyone to be heir. So instead, he backed Robert and arranged for his daughter to marry Robert with Jamie staying on as a Kingsguard.

In the books, Ned suggested to Robert that Jamie be forced to join the Night's Watch but Jon Arryn convinces Robert to pardon him and allow him to remain in the King's Guard which Tywin and Cersei obviously prefer as well. Presumably to secure the alliance between Robert and the Lannister's because he likely feared what Tywin would do if Jamie were executed or sent to the Night's Watch.

ohhh yeah that's right...i remember reading that

 

[remydat]

The other thing to mention was that Robert was in fact Targaryen as his grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen ie youngest daughter of King Ageon V. That is another reason Tywin saw fit not to challenge for the throne. Robert had the better claim to the Iron Throne once all the other Targaryen's with purer blood so to speak were killed.

 

[Tjodalv]

The other thing to mention was that Robert was in fact Targaryen as his grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen ie youngest daughter of King Ageon V. That is another reason Tywin saw fit not to challenge for the throne. Robert had the better claim to the Iron Throne once all the other Targaryen's with purer blood so to speak were killed.

Virtually every southern house has Targaryen blood: Hightower (through two different lines), Valeryon (again, twice), Plumm, Penrose, the remaining Martells, Longwaters, Dayne, Baratheon, and probably a bunch I'm missing.

 

[CMPunker]

This show is becoming dangerously close to overtaking Breaking Bad as my favorite show of all time.

 

[remydat]

Virtually every southern house has Targaryen blood: Hightower (through two different lines), Valeryon (again, twice), Plumm, Penrose, the remaining Martells, Longwaters, Dayne, Baratheon, and probably a bunch I'm missing.

True but of those involved in the rebellion, Robert was the closest blood relative if I recall as his father (or mother as I forget) was 1st cousins with the Mad King and he and Rhaegar were 2nd/3rd cousins depending on how you count. I might be forgetting someone but I don't think anyone else involved had that close a blood relationship to the Targaryen as that was one of the arguments made after the rebellion for why he should be King.

Which brings up an interesting aside. If Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son then his claim to the throne would be higher than his aunt Dany's which complicates the whole bending the knee business. Unless of course, they go back to Targaryen tradition with Dany and Snow marrying which I suppose is still less incestuous than the typical brother/sister marraige the Targaryen's prefer.

 

[number51]

Except your statement was the war would be over. Having unchecked Dorthraki roaming the country raping and pillaging does not mean the war is over. Having Jon Snow as King of the North does not mean the war is over. Having an Unsullied Army at Casterly rock does not mean the war is over.

I will grant you that killing Dany means all these factions would not be united under one leader but they would still exist and they all would have reason to continue the war save for maybe the Unsullied and even then Missandei and Greyworm would probably continue the war if for no other reason than to get revenge for Dany's murder.

Dany didn't plan on using all 3 of them against the Lannisters at KL anyway. The army that was suppose to attack KL was to come from Dorne because per Tyrion's plan they didn't want foreigners ie the Unsullied and Dothraki directly attacking KLs.

So for all we know killing Dany and without any clear leadership results in several armies descending on KLs as whose going to force the Dothraki, Unsullied or anyone else to stick to the plan if they all want a piece of KL and the Lannisters? Dany's restraint based on the advice of Tyrion was the only reason KL and the Lannisters weren't already dead.

Having said that, if you can take Dany out with little risk then by all means do so. But as it stands, he likely had no chance to escape the dragon after killing Dany so he's removing himself and Dany from the game without thoroughly thinking through the potential implications. That's a bad play. You don't sacrifice an important piece in the game in haste. Hence why Tyrion and Bron recognized, it was a fool's gamble.

The good news Danys dead, the war is over, Cersi keeps the throne.
The bad news is the various parts of Dany's army are roaming around leaderless. The lesser of two evils.

Either way the Dothraki are in Westeros, Dany alive they are focused on killing Lannisters, Dany dead random raping and pillaging. Maybe the the Dothraki head down to Dorne, they like the desert, problem solved.

 

[Tjodalv]

As for the claim it really depends on whether or not they want to legitimize the bastard or if plural marriage is legal in The Seven Kingdoms (and we don't know if Rhaegar and Lyanna wed in secret or not either). If not, then Dany is still the closest legitimate heir to Aerys II. I'm still convinced that the northerners won't be all too pleased if they find out Jon's lineage; compound that with his now [sort of] working with Dany, and they may see that as a conspiracy on his part. Not sure if there is enough show left to worry about delving into that though.

 

[remydat]

The good news Danys dead, the war is over, Cersi keeps the throne.
The bad news is the various parts of Dany's army are roaming around leaderless. The lesser of two evils.

Either way the Dothraki are in Westeros, Dany alive they are focused on killing Lannisters, Dany dead random raping and pillaging. Maybe the the Dothraki head down to Dorne, they like the desert, problem solved.

Why would the war be over? Again this is the part of the argument that makes no sense. The Dothraki are close to King's Landing already as Jamie was at the tail end of the army that delivered the gold to KL. So why would they go all the way to Dorne rather than just ride on to KLs and without Dany to stop them simply attack the city where all the gold was just delivered?

With Dany, they are not stepping foot within KL because Dany doesn't want to be seen as a foreign invader. Without Dany, they most likely simply ride on to the nearest big city that they know has a fuck ton of gold and a fuck ton of women. That happens to be KL.

You act like the Dothraki have no common sense. It is stupid to ride hundreds or thousands of miles to Dorne or anywhere else when they can just ride on to KLs raping and pillaging along the way.

 

[remydat]

As for the claim it really depends on whether or not they want to legitimize the bastard or if plural marriage is legal in The Seven Kingdoms (and we don't know if Rhaegar and Lyanna wed in secret or not either). If not, then Dany is still the closest legitimate heir to Aerys II. I'm still convinced that the northerners won't be all too pleased if they find out Jon's lineage; compound that with his now [sort of] working with Dany, and they may see that as a conspiracy on his part. Not sure if there is enough show left to worry about delving into that though.

Well I was thinking about it more from Dany and Jon's relationship. Outside forces may bicker regarding who has the stronger claim but I think Dany given her personality would most likely realize that as a son of her older brother, he has a stronger claim to the throne. A more ruthless person may disregard that or challenge whether it is the strongest but I think Dany wouldn't. Instead, she would most like offer a marriage as a compromise.

I agree the Northerners would likely not be pleased but I think pacifying them would hinge on the truth coming out about Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think initially they would assume Jon was a product of rape and thus be totally against the idea of Jon remaining King of the North but I suspect Rhaegar and Lyanna may actually have been in love. In any event, if Jon and Dany did wed, I would think he would give up Winterfell to Sansas since he would most likely have to spend too much time in KL to remain King of the North.

Of course, not saying this is how it all plays out but just speculating based on following this train of thought through to the end.

 

[number51]

Why would the war be over? Again this is the part of the argument that makes no sense. The Dothraki are close to King's Landing already as Jamie was at the tail end of the army that delivered the gold to KL. So why would they go all the way to Dorne rather than just ride on to KLs and without Dany to stop them simply attack the city where all the gold was just delivered?

With Dany, they are not stepping foot within KL because Dany doesn't want to be seen as a foreign invader. Without Dany, they most likely simply ride on to the nearest big city that they know has a fuck ton of gold and a fuck ton of women. That happens to be KL.

You act like the Dothraki have no common sense. It is stupid to ride hundreds or thousands of miles to Dorne or anywhere else when they can just ride on to KLs raping and pillaging along the way.

The good news Danys dead, the war is over, Cersi keeps the throne.
The bad news is the various parts of Dany's army are roaming around leaderless. The lesser of two evils.

Either way the Dothraki are in Westeros, Dany alive they are focused on killing Lannisters, Dany dead random raping and pillaging. Maybe the the Dothraki head down to Dorne, they like the desert, problem solved.

Yeah without Dany they probably head down to Dorne and continue to do what they have always done. There are plenty of places to pillage and people to rape down there, plus the terrain is more familiar to them.

Since Dany lives this is all hypothetical and we have heard each others opinions, this seems like a great place to stop.

 

[remydat]

Yeah without Dany they probably head down to Dorne and continue to do what they have always done. There are plenty of places to pillage and people to rape down there, plus the terrain is more familiar to them.

Since Dany lives this is all hypothetical and we have heard each others opinions, this seems like a great place to stop.

Right let me risk my life on killing Dany with very limited chance of success given a fire breathing dragon is right next to her on the vague hope that the massive army on the doorstep of KL decides to ride past all that gold to go fuck with Dorne.

I love how Jamie's plan is apparently dependent on him judging correctly how a people he knows next to nothing about will react when they are literally on the doorstep of KL. It's pretty dumb to gamble your life on an army known for raping and pillaging to inexplicable bypass the prime raping and pillaging target that is closest to them. So yeah let's agree to disagree.

 

[number51]

With Dany, they are not stepping foot within KL because Dany doesn't want to be seen as a foreign invader. Without Dany, they most likely simply ride on to the nearest big city that they know has a fuck ton of gold and a fuck ton of women. That happens to be KL.

I just noticed this, you think the Dothraki will ride their horses up the walls of kings Landing? I don't think you have thought this through.

The Dothraki received tribute from walled cities in Essos by raiding trade routs and nearby villages, they never actually laid siege to any castle or walled city, they never took castles because they didn't want them, they want what's in them. They aren't as stupid as you think, mess up enough stuff around the castles, they give you whatever you want from inside. Kings landing can be supplied by sea, Euron, the Dothraki would have no interest in this cold place. So off to Dorne to fuck shit up in the desert and get paid tribute, it's what they do, what they have always done.

 

[number51]

Right let me risk my life on killing Dany with very limited chance of success given a fire breathing dragon is right next to her on the vague hope that the massive army on the doorstep of KL decides to ride past all that gold to go fuck with Dorne.

I love how Jamie's plan is apparently dependent on him judging correctly how a people he knows next to nothing about will react when they are literally on the doorstep of KL. It's pretty dumb to gamble your life on an army known for raping and pillaging to inexplicable bypass the prime raping and pillaging target that is closest to them. So yeah let's agree to disagree.

Dead Dany, wars over. That is exactly what Jaime was thinking, it is all he was thinking.

The rest of this speculation on where the Dothraki go after the war is between us and had nothing to do with what Jaime was thinking at the time. Get your shit together.

 

[remydat]

I just noticed this, you think the Dothraki will ride their horses up the walls of kings Landing? I don't think you have thought this through.

The Dothraki received tribute from walled cities in Essos by raiding trade routs and nearby villages, they never actually laid siege to any castle or walled city, they never took castles because they didn't want them, they want what's in them. They aren't as stupid as you think, mess up enough stuff around the castles, they give you whatever you want from inside. Kings landing can be supplied by sea, Euron, the Dothraki would have no interest in this cold place. So off to Dorne to fuck shit up in the desert and get paid tribute, it's what they do, what they have always done.

No I think they will rape and pillage the nearby area and block supplies coming into the city. I think the people getting raped and pillaged would lose faith in Cersei when she is impotent to stop it which is a fear that has already been expressed on the show. I think Euron's ships would be fired upon from land if they tried to waltz up to KL with supplies

If you are getting supplied by sea then your ships are sitting ducks in Blackwater Rush. The backside of KL's that faces Blackwater Bay is high cliffs and has walls and is not where supplies come in. Supplies come in by going up the narrow Blackwater Rush and Euron's ships would be largely defenseless from fire arrows. If he came in to Blackwater Rush while the Dorthraki are there, his fleet would be burned to the bottom of the Rush.

Dead Dany, wars over. That is exactly what Jaime was thinking, it is all he was thinking.

The rest of this speculation on where the Dothraki go after the war is between us and had nothing to do with what Jaime was thinking at the time. Get your shit together.

Yes which is why his thinking was stupid as his brother Tyrion said. Dead Dany, war is over is fundamentally flawed logic because the massive army on the doorsteps on KL is not going anywhere.

His thought process was short sighted and foolhardy. The audience is clued into that fact by the writers having Tyrion remark how stupid it is.

 

[number51]

After what Jaime just saw, he thought it was a good idea to try to end the war right then. None of us knew if the dragon had anything left, that's why it was exciting.

Tyrion didn't want his brother to risk his life trying to kill his queen. From Tyrion's perspective risking his life was stupid.

Everyone knows if Daney dies the war is over, what the Dothraki do after the war is debatable. We had a nice debate, I appreciate your theories, I hope you enjoyed mine.

But yeah Dorne, it's in their nature, just to wet and cold in KL, if you gotta rape and pillage do it where you feel good. They don't want to have to loot parkas.