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Game of Thrones Thread
- Thread starter Rush
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Because they hadn't proved themselves. I am not saying the title would just be handed to them because they are a Stark. I am saying a Stark would have an easier time getting the title because they wouldn't have to wage war with everyone like another House would. However, that Stark still needs to be respected but they have thousands of years of history behind them.
Case in point, Robb obtained the title because he was known as Ned's heir and people thought him capable. And he proved it by initially winning a few battles. However, he was undone because his marriage insulted Frey to betrayal.
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Well, your arguing hypotheticals, and it all depends on where in that time line you want to begin the discussion. I agree that he should have left in the beginning, so if we begin the discussion there (he made a bad decision) your right.
But if you separate the two decisions, the decision to attack Dany is not as bad as you make it out to be when looked at individually and in the moment. He had already made one bad decision (admittedly) to stay and fight, he could not change that, so, he had another decision to make, to flee or try to take Dany out. It was too late to go back and change the first bad decision. At that point he had four choices:
1) continue to fight-certain death
2) try to take out Dany-Certain death but maybe he succeeds
3) try to flee-probably best chance for survival, but odds still great he gets killed trying
4) surrender-death by dany, or at best POW
given those 4 choices in the moment, he probably choose the best one.
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I already acknowledged that
Missed it. Am watching GOAT Bears QB in his first action.
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Never said that a capable Stark wouldn't have a leg up, but, you didn't address the second part of my hypothetical, which is why I brought this up in the first place. If Brann wanted to be Lord of WF would the Northern lords want him as KitN as well?
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Counterpoint, the Lords of the North Elected( I use the term elected loosely) Jon, a bastard (at least as far as they know) instead of Sansa, who was the rightful heir (at that time, no one knew Bran was alive).
This is what through LF plans for a loop, he had not considered that to be a possibility.
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Realistically what do you think his chance of success was each of those options?
Dany was tending to her dragon and the Dothraki don't know what he looks like. His chance for escape is much higher than his chance of killing Dany. Or do you disagree?
He is the commander of their forces right. Why would the general risk his life for something so like to fail?
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Looking like the Prince that was promised.
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There can be only one in that scenario IMO. They are both Starks. What would Jon be King of if he is not even ruler over a House?
Like maybe if Jon took Boltons lands the sure but you need land to be crowned King.
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Because he has a penis. Stark penis trump's a Stark vagina even a bastard's penis.
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I think this is more about the things he does for love. Can't bear to go back to Cersei after such a defeat so the desperate attempt to steal a win.
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Don't disagree but just another reason it's stupid. Pussy has killed many a man.
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I can't answer that question, I don't know if any scenario looked good for his survival at that conjecture. were they higher? Well they had to be, charging Dany was certain death. How much higher? I mean 5% chance is a lot higher than 0. So from a pure survival standpoint his best option was probably surrender, but even that was risky (he did kill Dany's dad after all). Flee, don't think he would got away, I am pretty sure the Dothraki and Dany at the very least knew he was someone of importance, and not a grunt.
Point is, he was in a no win situation and he did what he thought was his best option for his side. He was pretty much fubarred at that point.
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LMAO. What about a cripple vs a bastard? This will lead into a more interesting discussion btw, the what happens if Jon is determined to be a legitimate heir to the throne via it becoming common knowledge he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? While it may make him a legitimate heir to the Iron throne, which he doesn't want, it at the same time removes him from having any claim to WF and the North, should he not want the Iron throne (of course Dany could still apoint him Lord of WF).
Maybe for this reason it never becomes public knowledge? More speculation on my part.
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Dany was busy with her dragon so she wouldn't have factored into his ability to escape. The dude was literally not being attacked by anyone at that moment hence why Tyrion could watch him and tell him to run.
So somehow you are saying the minute he turns and gallops away, the Dothraki not paying attention to him would suddenly pay attention. And Dany who was struggling to remove the spear would magically do so, realize a guy she wasn't even looking at was important, and then Drogon would have recovered enough to chase him down?
There is no evidence in that scene that Dany is even aware of him until he charges nor is there any evidence any Dothraki concerned with him.
The simple answer was for him to flee as in that moment no one save Tyrion was aware of him.
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Ok are we changing subjects as originally we were talking about a Stark as King of the North. Pitting Starks against Starks doesn't change the fact they are both Starks.
If we are simply talking succession and not KotN then Bran obviously has the better claim because he's not a bastard. It would be trickier if Bran refused and it came down to him and Sansa as I suspect some Houses would still prefer a Stark penis while others would probably side with Sansa on the basis she was Ned's daughter. In the end though I think Jon would be quite fine with giving it to Sansa rather than risk conflict provided the NK is defeated.
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There were Dothraki within 50 ft of him, they were just pre-occupied at the moment. he could only flee in one direction, and that would have him crossing paths with the bulk of the hoard eventually.
His chances of fleeing, and making it back to KL without being killed or captured were slim to none, in my opinion (and that is what you asked). Slim is better than none (which is his chances for survival charging Dany), so from a pure survival standpoint your right, is that what your looking for?
Considering how well things went last time Jamie was taken prisoner, I am pretty sure that wasn't an option for him however.
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Jon is not a Stark
My quote was
I never said anything about one of the two being a non-stark either, rather two different people.
* now your changing the subject, or at least the one I was addressing. Yes, once the NK is defeated, everything is once again open for discussion, I am talking about the here and now.
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And you don't know how long they would be preoccupied. It is rare in a battle for every single person to be to killed as there are usually always people that escape when an army is routing. In the moment where no one is paying attention to him, his best bet is to flee and hope the Dothraki remain preoccupied. It's not to charge headlong towards someone with a dragon nearby and in so doing draw attention to himself.
Let me ask a simple question. If it was your life, are you telling me you would decide to charge towards where the dragon is? If it were me, I would get out of there. If someone chases me down on horseback then so be it but there is no reason for me to stay there with the army routing to throw my life away for a dumb risk.
Jon is not a Stark
My quote was
I never said anything about one of the two being a non-stark either, rather two different people.
Jon's mom is Lyanna Stark so yes he is a Stark. I am not referring to his last name. I am referring to his blood. By blood he is a Stark and a Targeryen, Bran has the stronger claim because he is the son and brother of the previous heads of House Stark. However, if it came down to Sansa and Jon, Sansa has on her side being the daughter and sister of the previous heads but Snow has the advantage of being a male Stark even if it's from his mother's blood and not his father. Hence why I think it would be split because there are obviously men who will always prefer a male to a female if at all possible.
And the point about them both being a Stark is that it seems unlikely for there to be a reason to split the titles. To be King of anything, you need to be a noble of some sort which by noble I mean part of the land holding aristocracy. If Bran is Lord of Winterfell then what land does Jon own to qualify as a noble? That's why I said, the only way this could work would be if somehow Bran and Jon both hold land like if Jon somehow acquired all the Bolton lands.
In that case, Bran would have all the land associated historically with the Starks while Jon would have all the land associated with the Bolton's and in that context if Jon could be King of the North. Otherwise, without any land holdings, Jon has no real power to command that title.
The only other option would be if Jon married Dany and as some compromise with House Stark, he is crowned King of the North so that Dany can in effect still be the titular ruler of the North but then Bran/Sansa would be considered Lord of Winterfell. In that case though the KotN is more just a title to keep the peace as the Northerners would be appeased by having Sansa/Bran as true rulers of the North while Dany will be appeased by having the KotN as her husband and thus the appearance that she is truly Queen of the 7 Kingdoms.
But in any event, a Stark would still be King of the North because Jon is still a Stark by blood which goes back to the point TJ was making that the Starks have always been Kings of the North not any other Northern House.
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A war takes two, so yeah one of them dies, the war is over. I'm a little surprised you are still working that out.
They do love her, but isn't there a tipping point where the Dothraki say we need pillage/rape? That's how Drogo died, denying them what they expect when they win a battle. After the E4 battle I expect them to look around and ask each other, WTF? I'm not predicting a revolt in E5, but at some point the Dothraki should start asking some questions. Again, it's their nature, Daney is awesome, but these guys want what they want.