Game of Thrones Thread

Tjodalv

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I've been asking for months what the Dothraki plan to do after the war. Get sent back to Essos? Become farmers? I mean, Dany isn't going to want them living the Dothraki life in Westeros -- raping and pillaging her own people. So...

I mean, I don't expect many of them to survive the series, but as a hypothetical "what if the Walkers didn't exist, Dany just showed up and took the Seven Kingdoms with ease as she planned?" type of thought experiment. It doesn't strike me as a particularly well thought out strategy, unless she really was just going to send them home the entire time.
 

remydat

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A war takes two, so yeah one of them dies, the war is over. I'm a little surprised you are still working that out.



They do love her, but isn't there a tipping point where the Dothraki say we need pillage/rape? That's how Drogo died, denying them what they expect when they win a battle. After the E4 battle I expect them to look around and ask each other, WTF? I'm not predicting a revolt in E5, but at some point the Dothraki should start asking some questions. Again, it's their nature, Daney is awesome, but these guys want what they want.

No actually, a war can involve multiple people. In addition to Dany, there is the Dothraki, Tyrion, Varys, Missandei, Grey Worm, the North, etc. There are any number of players in this war.

Drogo didn't have a dragon. Great someone challenges Dany. You think she is going to fight in single combat or simple just burn them to ash with her dragon? I'm not saying they can't possibly get upset or cause conflict as it's a TV show after all. But unless you are going to try and surprise kill her, challenging her authority is kind of dumb when you can't beat a dragon much less 3.

If I'm Dany, I just have one of my dragons scorch the entire earth around me and as my enemies burn, I emerge from the fire to remind people of what is essentially her divine right to rule them from the perspective of simple people. She is not some run of the mill ruler. She has the power to control dragons and is immune to fire. That is what keeps them in line. Those supernatural abilities.
 

number51

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No actually, a war can involve multiple people. In addition to Dany, there is the Dothraki, Tyrion, Varys, Missandei, Grey Worm, the North, etc. There are any number of players in this war.

You had me and you lost me. Really? No way are you serious.
 

remydat

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I've been asking for months what the Dothraki plan to do after the war. Get sent back to Essos? Become farmers? I mean, Dany isn't going to want them living the Dothraki life in Westeros -- raping and pillaging her own people. So...

I mean, I don't expect many of them to survive the series, but as a hypothetical "what if the Walkers didn't exist, Dany just showed up and took the Seven Kingdoms with ease as she planned?" type of thought experiment. It doesn't strike me as a particularly well thought out strategy, unless she really was just going to send them home the entire time.

Were the Andals not a conquering horde when they first came to Westeros? Did the Romans not recruit barbarians for centuries to supplement their numbers? What happened to the Mongols when they conquered China? The fact is if they don't return home then they most likely assimilate and become more civilized because that is the way these things generally go.

The Mongols went from being a bunch of nomads used to raping and pillaging just like the Dothraki to within 2 generations being civilized when Genghis' grandson Kublai Khan became Emperor of China. Of course, Kublai faced resistance and had to fight some civil wars but eventually he won out.

Shit much of Europe is proof of that because the English, French, Germans, etc. are largely descended from the barbarians that overran Rome. There are really very few examples I can think of where barbarians that end up in contact with a more advanced society don't eventually become more civilized.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/6040/

Just to further illustrate the point. That's from Martin himself regarding who the Dothraki are modeled after. So if you want to think what happens to them long term, think about what happened to the people they were modeled after. They became civilized or they likely died out. None continued raping or pillaging forever. Only issue is how long the process takes really.
 

number51

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I've been asking for months what the Dothraki plan to do after the war. Get sent back to Essos? Become farmers? I mean, Dany isn't going to want them living the Dothraki life in Westeros -- raping and pillaging her own people. So...

I mean, I don't expect many of them to survive the series, but as a hypothetical "what if the Walkers didn't exist, Dany just showed up and took the Seven Kingdoms with ease as she planned?" type of thought experiment. It doesn't strike me as a particularly well thought out strategy, unless she really was just going to send them home the entire time.

Be careful who you invite to the party. remy keeps talking about the Dothraki like Daney owns them, maybe today. The Dothraki are in Westeros, win lose or draw they are still in Westeros. "What if Daney dies?" "What if Daney wins?" Either way, you still got 100,000 Dothraki in Westeros.
 

Tjodalv

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The Mongols continued to be a largely nomadic and warlike people. Just because they conquered a dynasty and took control over it's government doesn't mean that they all just settled down into the Chinese way of life, it was quite the opposite. They continued expansionist wars (Southern China, Japan, Vietnam, Java, Burma, etc.) largely without success. While Kublai attempted to rule as a traditional sedentary emperor, his people continued doing what they had for much of recorded history; they didn't intermarry, adopt customs of, or even interact much with the conquered Han. After Kublai died there were 8 emperors within something like a 30 year period and they were then supplanted by rebellion. So the Mongols becoming "civilized" lasted a whopping 70 years or so (if you ignore the continued war-like behavior).

And how did that work out for the Romans? If I remember correctly, the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, and numerous others were all, at one time, foederati of the Roman Empire. Employ the barbarians, lose control, be conquered by barbarians in the twilight of your civilization.

As for the Andals, there is a difference between a displaced, migratory, people and nomadic ones. The Andals were a sedentary group whom fled the expansion of Valyria and brought writing, iron working, and the Faith of the Seven. Fleeing a foe and simply being a wandering horde are vastly different enterprises. If we're drawing parallels, the Dothraki are more like the Huns -- nomadic, disinterested in ruling lands they conquer, driven and sustained by looting, and so on -- while the Andals more closely resemble Germanic peoples whom were displaced by greater powers and were more or less content with settling in new areas after they subdued the local populous.

Seriously, just look at what the nomadic Huns and Mongols (Dothraki) ended up doing after their expansionist era compared to the migratory Germanic (Andal) tribes. They aren't the same outcomes because the initial purpose or cause of their displacements weren't the same.
 

Tjodalv

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I'm fucking dying:

[video=youtube;7qxsCCd9jjA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qxsCCd9jjA[/video]

:rofl:
 

remydat

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The Mongols continued to be a largely nomadic and warlike people. Just because they conquered a dynasty and took control over it's government doesn't mean that they all just settled down into the Chinese way of life, it was quite the opposite. They continued expansionist wars (Southern China, Japan, Vietnam, Java, Burma, etc.) largely without success. While Kublai attempted to rule as a traditional sedentary emperor, his people continued doing what they had for much of recorded history; they didn't intermarry, adopt customs of, or even interact much with the conquered Han. After Kublai died there were 8 emperors within something like a 30 year period and they were then supplanted by rebellion. So the Mongols becoming "civilized" lasted a whopping 70 years or so (if you ignore the continued war-like behavior).

And how did that work out for the Romans? If I remember correctly, the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, and numerous others were all, at one time, foederati of the Roman Empire. Employ the barbarians, lose control, be conquered by barbarians in the twilight of your civilization.

As for the Andals, there is a difference between a displaced, migratory, people and nomadic ones. The Andals were a sedentary group whom fled the expansion of Valyria and brought writing, iron working, and the Faith of the Seven. Fleeing a foe and simply being a wandering horde are vastly different enterprises. If we're drawing parallels, the Dothraki are more like the Huns -- nomadic, disinterested in ruling lands they conquer, driven and sustained by looting, and so on -- while the Andals more closely resemble Germanic peoples whom were displaced by greater powers and were more or less content with settling in new areas after they subdued the local populous.

No that's the Mongols who chose to remain in Mongolia ie isolated. The mongols who ended up remaining in China assimilated. Just as an FYI, Mongols in China are twice the amount of Mongols in Mongolia. And that's just the Mongols who clearly identify as Mongols. The ones whose families assimilated a long time ago probably number much more than that. There are only 3 million people in Mongolia. Those are the remnants of the Mongols that wanted to stick to their old ways and so stayed behind. Many more of them remained in China and essentially became Chinese.

That's why I said if they don't return home. The reason the Mongols that stayed in Mongolia remained nomadic or why the Dothraki who return home may remain nomadic is because they would remain isolated. That isolation allows them not to assimilate or allows them to remain nomadic because they are largely left to themselves in Essos. They rape, pillage, go home and the other people on Essos stay away from them.

If they are stuck in Westeros, sooner or later they will intermarry. Sooner or later they will start exchanging customs. Sooner or later they will want to live in cities because if they don't then it's easier for the people of Westeros to take what they have. It's easy to be a nomad when no one bothers you and you just bother others before returning home. It's harder to be a nomad when you are surrounded by enemies that will come for your women and possessions if you don't protect them. Isolation is the nomad's protection. Without it, they need to build cities to protect the things dear to them.

As for the Romans. The Romans are still around as Italy is still around. The reasons the Romans lost control but the Chinese did not is one of numbers. The Chinese vastly outnumbered the Mongols so eventually the Mongols that stayed in China assimilated. The Romans were only from one small part of Europe ie Italy so they were always fighting a losing battle because as their empire expanded, it was inevitable that the barbarians would eventually outnumber them. But again what happened to those barbarians? Even when they overran the Romans, they still ended up becoming civilized because the Romans had already due to their interactions with them forced their hand because the barbarians couldn't live in isolation anymore and thus had to adopt a lifestyle that would protect what they valued.

100k Dothraki's are a lot for an army. But it's not enough to outbreed a native population that I presume numbers in the millions especially when their army is mostly men. So how will they grow if not by intermarriage? Again, the answer is easy if they were going back to Essos. They would just go back to fucking their Dothraki wives. But if they stay in Westeros and want children then guess what, they will have to fuck local women and just like Dany tamed Drogo, some of these men will be tamed by their women. And these women will want to live in cities that can protect them. And they will want the pretty things they are accustomed to receiving from their husbands. Some dudes will eventually resist but again you can't resist forever when you are constantly dying from wars as if you don't assimilate, attrition will win out.
 

remydat

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I'm fucking dying:

[video=youtube;7qxsCCd9jjA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qxsCCd9jjA[/video]

:rofl:

Lol, it must be late because I didn't get it at first. I was like what the fuck is that noise and why don't I remember it from the show. Then I actually noticed the title of the vid.
 

nc0gnet0

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Let me ask a simple question. If it was your life, are you telling me you would decide to charge towards where the dragon is? If it were me, I would get out of there. If someone chases me down on horseback then so be it but there is no reason for me to stay there with the army routing to throw my life away for a dumb risk.

If I were facing the exact same circumstances with the exact same history, I might be inclined to do the same. The question isn't solely about ones personal survival, you have to consider in his mind, he is also considering what is good for the realm.
 

remydat

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If I were facing the exact same circumstances with the exact same history, I might be inclined to do the same. The question isn't solely about ones personal survival, you have to consider in his mind, he is also considering what is good for the realm.

Well I guess in that regard, it's good for the realm that he die so that Cersei is weakened and it hastens her defeat. That's about the only way his charge makes sense if this was him trying to commit suicide for the good of the realm because certainly he had virtually no chance of actually killing Dany.
 

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The war doesn't just involve two people. There are hostilities from multiple people involved. The Dothraki want plunder so there is no reason for them to end their desire for plunder simply because Dany is dead. Varys does what he thinks is in the best interest of the country and Cersei is not that in his view. Tyrion is still at odds with his brother and sister and can't just be like no biggie. Missandei and Greyworm believed in Dany and it's not a given they just up and leave now that she is dead rather than seek revenge. And when Dany walked out of the fire after killing the other Dothraki leaders, she was recognized as their Queen so the idea they will just like the death of their Queen slide is unfounded.

The situation is far more complicated than two people want the crown and it's this very simplistic way of thinking that makes Jamie more of a soldier than a strategist. When it comes to strategy, he should probably let Cersei do the thinking for him.

Good analysis.
 

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No good leader, no good army. Funny how true the Fat King's words from season 1 ring now.

"I do know this: If the Targaryen girl convinces her horselord husband to invade and the Dothraki horde crosses the Narrow Sea . . . we won't be able to stop them," he says. "Let's say Viserys Targaryen lands with 40,000 Dothraki screamers at his back. We hole up in our castles. A wise move. Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field."

"one army, a real army, united behind one leader with one purpose is stronger than five."

THere was a great line in the latest episode where the Dothraki warrior talks to the Imp and says: "You people do not know how to fight" while they watch the Lannister forces being fried and butchered. Also, how cool were those scenes with the Dothraki's shooting arrows while standing upon their horses. Do you think those were actually trick rider stunt men or was it an "engineered" scene?
 

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Realistically what do you think his chance of success was each of those options?

Dany was tending to her dragon and the Dothraki don't know what he looks like. His chance for escape is much higher than his chance of killing Dany. Or do you disagree?

He is the commander of their forces right. Why would the general risk his life for something so like to fail?

Because Jamie is a warrior first and was pissed. It is the same type of thing that Jon Snow did after his brother was killed by Ramsey. He didn't think, he reacted out of anger.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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This thread is starting to make me enjoy the show less, yet I keep reading.
 

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Well I guess in that regard, it's good for the realm that he die so that Cersei is weakened and it hastens her defeat. That's about the only way his charge makes sense if this was him trying to commit suicide for the good of the realm because certainly he had virtually no chance of actually killing Dany.

Your a coward, we get it :)
 

remydat

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Because Jamie is a warrior first and was pissed. It is the same type of thing that Jon Snow did after his brother was killed by Ramsey. He didn't think, he reacted out of anger.

Jon Snow's decision was stupid as hell. He was bailed out because it's a TV show so LF could magically arrive in time to save him. You would think a guy that already died once would be a bit more cautious.

Your a coward, we get it :)

It's you're and there are a lot of dead stupid people that imagined themselves as heroes in their story. Unlike Jamie, they weren't fictional characters who could be bailed out by Bron Urlacher tackling them before they get themselves killed.
 

nc0gnet0

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Jon Snow's decision was stupid as hell. He was bailed out because it's a TV show so LF could magically arrive in time to save him. You would think a guy that already died once would be a bit more cautious.



It's you're and there are a lot of dead stupid people that imagined themselves as heroes in their story. Unlike Jamie, they weren't fictional characters who could be bailed out by Bron Urlacher tackling them before they get themselves killed.

ZIUoLqz.jpg
 

number51

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As I was watching the scene when Jaime picked up the lance, I had no idea if Drogon was about to die, I was watching it with other people that also had no idea what Drogon's fighting capability was at that moment.

To all those that knew the dragon was 100% battle ready, congratulations, you are smarter than me, my wife and our friends. From our perspective it was a reasonable risk, if the dragon is out of commission, Daney is dead, the war is over, if the dragon is still functioning Jaime get toasted.

Yeah I know Remy, if Dany dies the war continues because Grey Worm becomes King because things. Just, please don't.
 

remydat

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Lol, the dragon was able to land without Dany being thrown or harmed in the slightest. Maybe an anatomy class is in order because the spear is not anywhere near a vital organ.
 

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