Game of Thrones Thread

Warrior Spirit

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Umm they didn't outsmart him. Bran the all seer told them the truth. It's not that hard to trap someone when a character in the story effectively knows the script. And even with having the three eyed raven, their trap was pretty weak. They absolutely failed to get any hard evidence against him.

How can you Lords trust Sansa when she said Lyssa committed suicide?

How can you Lords trust Sansa when she betrayed her own brother Robb?

How can you Lords trust Bran when he was not a witness to any of the events he described?

If I can figure out these 3 basic questions that would have shredded the accusations against him then not sure how LF or any character with a brain couldn't have. Now maybe they still kill him because frankly no one really likes the dude but it's piss poor writing that this guy that outwitted so many characters somehow is incapable of making a logical defense in the face of unprovable accusations.

The writers simply rushed things and gambled that most won't care as long as LF was killed. Just like they gambled no one would give a shit about the warp speed from last show because Dragons and the NK. They are sacrificing logic for entertainment which is fine, it's a show afterall but I appreciate smart writing and this was not it.
At the very least, it made all the crazy shit between Sansa and Arya make sense as they were just running a con of their own to take down LF and were united all along. Not really sure why you're concerned there was evidence lacking? When was a preponderance of evidence required in GOT? Doesn't matter who should believe in Bran or not cause LF was basically reduced to begging Sansa for mercy.

Even if you accept all the above which as you said is kind of dumb, I still don't see what was gained. Wouldn't Dany and Jon simply have waited for Cersei's forces to mobilize and when they didn't show up find out quite quickly that she lied. Surely they can't be stupid enough to go attack without actually seeing Cersei's army on the battlefield. Not to mention, why even let Euron return to the Iron Islands. I would burn his ships with the dragons as soon as he set sail. There is no logical reason to allow him to go freely particularly when killing him and freeing Yara would then get the support of the Iron Islands most likely.

That whole angle makes no fucking sense as it's pretty hard not to notice when a massive army has failed to march North.
I did make mention of how the dragons should have already been used to take out Euron's fleet.

I think what they're doing here is setting up Theon's redemption by having him go find Yara and then ultimately catching up and killing Euron some how.
 
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Gustavus Adolphus

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I still just don't understand how poorly they revealed Jon's true identity. It just seems to me that this was the one big thing people were looking for, and it's Bran who reveals it? Except he doesn't, because he thought he was a Dornish bastard. Oh wait, Samwell remembers this little note from a ledger, so now Bran - who sees everything - figures it out. Wasn't there always speculation that Littlefinger knew about this? So instead of him revealing it to Sansa and Arya in a last grasp to save his life and threaten the legitimacy of the Northern Kingdom, we get one of the worst actors on the show going through his visions? Just so stupid that Bran can quote LF when he had the dagger at Ned's neck, but needs Sam to remember the footnotes he read.
 

NCChiFan

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The way the Baleish trial felt to me, evidence had already been given to those in the room. None of what Sansa had to say seemed to have come as a surprise... No "gasps" no shouts of "prove it"... Nothing but silence. And when Baleish asked for assistance and sanctuary he was immediately denied, no question. Looked to me as if the only one surprised was Baleish.

Funniest scene to me was the Bran/Sam encounter. Some funny dialog there.
 

ruprecht

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I find myself wishing someone would take out Bran.
 

Warrior Spirit

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I still just don't understand how poorly they revealed Jon's true identity. It just seems to me that this was the one big thing people were looking for, and it's Bran who reveals it? Except he doesn't, because he thought he was a Dornish bastard. Oh wait, Samwell remembers this little note from a ledger, so now Bran - who sees everything - figures it out. Wasn't there always speculation that Littlefinger knew about this? So instead of him revealing it to Sansa and Arya in a last grasp to save his life and threaten the legitimacy of the Northern Kingdom, we get one of the worst actors on the show going through his visions? Just so stupid that Bran can quote LF when he had the dagger at Ned's neck, but needs Sam to remember the footnotes he read.
Don't see the same huge oddities here as there are in the KL meet up. It wasn't really a big reveal cause most viewers already suspected Jon wasn't a bastard and knew for certain he was the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So they did it in more of a matter-of-fact kind of way tying it in with the Jon/Dany hookup session. As Bran says she (Lyanna) loved him (Rhaegar) we see Jon and Dany eye fucking. As he says Jon is Aegon Targaryen, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, we see Jon mount the one who thought she was the rightful heir.
 

nc0gnet0

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Umm they didn't outsmart him. Bran the all seer told them the truth. It's not that hard to trap someone when a character in the story effectively knows the script. And even with having the three eyed raven, their trap was pretty weak. They absolutely failed to get any hard evidence against him.

How can you Lords trust Sansa when she said Lyssa committed suicide?

How can you Lords trust Sansa when she betrayed her own brother Robb?

How can you Lords trust Bran when he was not a witness to any of the events he described?

If I can figure out these 3 basic questions that would have shredded the accusations against him then not sure how LF or any character with a brain couldn't have. Now maybe they still kill him because frankly no one really likes the dude but it's piss poor writing that this guy that outwitted so many characters somehow is incapable of making a logical defense in the face of unprovable accusations.

The writers simply rushed things and gambled that most won't care as long as LF was killed. Just like they gambled no one would give a shit about the warp speed from last show because Dragons and the NK. They are sacrificing logic for entertainment which is fine, it's a show afterall but I appreciate smart writing and this was not it.

It's funny how people can watch the same show and come away with such different interpretations of what they just seen. I will grant you the writing left a lot for the viewers to figure out on their own, but still, I thought this episode was one of the best writing wise of the entire season. And that is not to be confused with the most entertaining (aka the special effects of the episode 4 and 6).

The WF storyline left the viewer with the task of knowing that a lot went on behind the scenes, I will grant you that. But some of your points I will address:

1) How can you Lords trust Sansa when she said Lyssa committed suicide?

I don't think they particularly liked Lyssa to begin with, and remember, they were also informed that Lyssa had conspired with LF to kill Lord Arryn by poison. They could have bought into the fact that Sansa was just a scared little girl at the time.

2) How can you Lords trust Sansa when she betrayed her own brother Robb?

Same, she did what she had to do to survive.

3) How can you Lords trust Bran when he was not a witness to any of the events he described?

The Bran factor. How hard would it be for Bran to spend a bit of time with anyone who doubts him and show the Lords his recollections are accurate? Not hard at all for Bran to do, but a instance of just this with any of the Lord would have gone a long way it to understanding why they trust his visions.

LF panicked, he was at first denying the allegations, but when Bran brought up what LF said to Ned stark when he betrayed him verbatim LF lost his composure. At that moment, he knew Bran could dispute, and disprove anything LF might try to bring up in his defense (although it most certainly would have prolonged things a bit). When you add to the fact LF had secretly been whispering into all the Lords ears how Sansa should be the ruler of WF for the past several episodes, and then to have that same person accuse you of conspiring against the North, it pretty much leaves you in a very vulnerable position. One must remember it was always LF intent to install Sansa as lady of WF, and through proxy, or maybe even marriage, acquire the North in addition to the Vale. LF's plans took a hit first when Jon, not Sansa was elected KitN, which lead LF to work behind the scenes to discredit Jon, and then got really complicated upon Bran and Arya's arrivals. LF then started another one of his elaborate schemes, which was to pit Arya against Sansa, which would have lead to Sansa eventually passing judgment on Arya, and thus removing another one of LF's obstacles in his grand scheme.
 

nc0gnet0

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I still just don't understand how poorly they revealed Jon's true identity. It just seems to me that this was the one big thing people were looking for, and it's Bran who reveals it? Except he doesn't, because he thought he was a Dornish bastard. Oh wait, Samwell remembers this little note from a ledger, so now Bran - who sees everything - figures it out. Wasn't there always speculation that Littlefinger knew about this? So instead of him revealing it to Sansa and Arya in a last grasp to save his life and threaten the legitimacy of the Northern Kingdom, we get one of the worst actors on the show going through his visions? Just so stupid that Bran can quote LF when he had the dagger at Ned's neck, but needs Sam to remember the footnotes he read.

So in the time that has elapsed, Bran is supposed to have known everything that has ever happened in Westeros for the last 8000 years? It probably never dawned on him to go back further to see if Jon was indeed legitimate, as he had always been told that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. It's not unreasonable to expect that he didn't feel the need (based on what he thought he already knew) to go back and see all the gory details that lead up to Jon's birth.
 

nc0gnet0

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Even if you accept all the above which as you said is kind of dumb, I still don't see what was gained. Wouldn't Dany and Jon simply have waited for Cersei's forces to mobilize and when they didn't show up find out quite quickly that she lied. Surely they can't be stupid enough to go attack without actually seeing Cersei's army on the battlefield. Not to mention, why even let Euron return to the Iron Islands. I would burn his ships with the dragons as soon as he set sail. There is no logical reason to allow him to go freely particularly when killing him and freeing Yara would then get the support of the Iron Islands most likely.

That whole angle makes no fucking sense as it's pretty hard not to notice when a massive army has failed to march North.

Well, you can't say nothing was gained, although things surely didn't go as planned. Jamie leaving Cersie is no small feat, as he will not be easily replaced and now she has no battle commander, and Jamie will share Cersei's intent with Dany and Jon. What remains to be seen if others will defect to the Northern cause as well. I think it would be interesting that instead of having Jamie go North to join up with Dany/Jon, he instead travels first to the citadel to get the Maesters to send ravens to all the vassal houses in Westeros of what Jamie has seen, and what is coming.
 

ZOMBIE@CTESPN

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If you notice now lannisters are the last of the old guard left. All the younger generations of westeros will be ruling soon enough.
 

Warrior Spirit

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If you notice now lannisters are the last of the old guard left. All the younger generations of westeros will be ruling soon enough.
Yes and the Lannisters are completely divided. Cersei sure to die. Maybe if she tells Mountain not to kill her he will since he seems to be doing the opposite of what she says now.
 

Ares

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Umm they didn't outsmart him. Bran the all seer told them the truth. It's not that hard to trap someone when a character in the story effectively knows the script. And even with having the three eyed raven, their trap was pretty weak. They absolutely failed to get any hard evidence against him.

How can you Lords trust Sansa when she said Lyssa committed suicide?

How can you Lords trust Sansa when she betrayed her own brother Robb?

How can you Lords trust Bran when he was not a witness to any of the events he described?

If I can figure out these 3 basic questions that would have shredded the accusations against him then not sure how LF or any character with a brain couldn't have. Now maybe they still kill him because frankly no one really likes the dude but it's piss poor writing that this guy that outwitted so many characters somehow is incapable of making a logical defense in the face of unprovable accusations.

The writers simply rushed things and gambled that most won't care as long as LF was killed. Just like they gambled no one would give a shit about the warp speed from last show because Dragons and the NK. They are sacrificing logic for entertainment which is fine, it's a show afterall but I appreciate smart writing and this was not it.

Only thing I would keep in mind.... that whole "trial" was really just Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Bronze Yohn Royce from the Vale.... as long as they had Royce and the guards with them, they could carry that farce of a trial out without any trouble....there were no knights of the Vale in that room.

As with alot of this stuff, I imagine the book will do the work of actually stitching together a coherent set of events that make sense when Little Finger is killed.
 

Ares

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So in the time that has elapsed, Bran is supposed to have known everything that has ever happened in Westeros for the last 8000 years? It probably never dawned on him to go back further to see if Jon was indeed legitimate, as he had always been told that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. It's not unreasonable to expect that he didn't feel the need (based on what he thought he already knew) to go back and see all the gory details that lead up to Jon's birth.

I think the issue is more the writing seems to claim Bran sees and knows everything that has ever happened, but yet doesn't?

Like it isn't a library he needs to read, it is all knowledge already in his head.... he just knows things... all the things.... but there are things he doesn't know.... lol you can't have it both fucking ways.... either he knows it all or he doesn't.

If he has access to all of it, but you have a reasoning of why he might not immediately recall information, then you need to clue the viewer into that, because right now all we've been told is he can see all past, present, and future with no limits.
 

nc0gnet0

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I think the issue is more the writing seems to claim Bran sees and knows everything that has ever happened, but yet doesn't?

Like it isn't a library he needs to read, it is all knowledge already in his head.... he just knows things... all the things.... but there are things he doesn't know.... lol you can't have it both fucking ways.... either he knows it all or he doesn't.

If he has access to all of it, but you have a reasoning of why he might not immediately recall information, then you need to clue the viewer into that, because right now all we've been told is he can see all past, present, and future with no limits.

But I have always gotten the impression the past was all just a library he could access, and not that he possessed all that knowledge in his own brain. That is kinda the way the Weirwood net works, isn't it?
 

Warrior Spirit

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I think the issue is more the writing seems to claim Bran sees and knows everything that has ever happened, but yet doesn't?

Like it isn't a library he needs to read, it is all knowledge already in his head.... he just knows things... all the things.... but there are things he doesn't know.... lol you can't have it both fucking ways.... either he knows it all or he doesn't.

If he has access to all of it, but you have a reasoning of why he might not immediately recall information, then you need to clue the viewer into that, because right now all we've been told is he can see all past, present, and future with no limits.
Not sure the writing claims all that. In fact, the writers used the fact that his brain is like an encyclopedia since becoming the 3 eyed raven and he is overwhelmed by it. As a viewer, I got the the impression all the info is there for him to access but it's not just instant knowledge that is supplanted in him. It's info he has to access and remember along the way. So it made sense to me that he had to go back and see if Ogre had married his aunt cause from what he knew up front, Rhaegar kidnapped her. After recalling it though, he sees he was lied to all along and Robert's rebellion was built on a lie.
 

ZOMBIE@CTESPN

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He's all knowing only if he goes back and experiences it. That's how I see it also. When sam told him the tidbit about raegar who looks like danerys bitch ass bro lol he went back at that moment and confirmed Jon isn't a bastard
 

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Sam even asked if he could see that. Then he jumps right into it.
 

CODE_BLUE56

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Oh no doubt that Arya and Sansa may believe Bran but not sure why anyone else would. We went from Sansa and Jon having a tenuous hold on the Northern lords according to Sansa to suddenly everyone just believing Bran. We went from Sansa lying about how her aunt died to no one being concerned when she changed her story. We went from Sansa being worried about the letter to LF not even bothering to bring it up in his defense despite his life being on the line.

If LF could cave that quickly despite no credible evidence against him then he would have died a long time ago. And maybe book LF would not have brought up the letter but TV show LF who convinced her to go to Ramsey certainly would. The dude's life was on the line, there is no logical way he would simply let Sansa kill him without a fight.

Yea, it definitely seemed like a weak moment for him. I honestly don't think he foresaw Sansa turning on him like he did, that whole thing was pretty clever. On the other hand, looking back at it, I feel like Littlefinger likes to go the "crocodile tears" route whenever he is threatened physically(e.g. Ned). You wonder how much of his breakdown was fully genuine. But he definitely does love Sansa, and when it comes to being a cold,calculating schemer, that is his weak spot.

Overall, it definitely seemed like he was a bit in the woodwork this season, but I think he was trying to play out a number of things to progressively turn Sansa and Arya against each other. I do wish he had been trying to extend himself outside of Winterfell. The whole Arya-Sansa ploy did feel like he was putting all his eggs into one basket.

As for people trusting Bran, yea I imagine his all-seeing abilities might be hard to believe, but clearly there's been more going on than just what was shown on the show. Also, Bran is a Stark, that tends to help his credibility in the North.

As for Arya and Sansa, one of the fundamental problems with this whole affair is that it was completely unnecessary. Book LF has a long term plan. TV show LF started to fuck with Arya and Sansa for no good reason. Arya posed no real threat to LF or Sansa's position until LF decided to pit them against each other. The whole plot seemed contrived just to create a reason for him to be killed. I sure hope Martin does better in the book as I have a hard time believing this is the plan for the books as well.

Then again maybe part of the problem with the character is Martin made him so calculating that it will be difficult to sell his death unless someone can truly outsmart him in an ingenious way.

As for Theon, I assume he pulls it off because Euron will be gone and will have left Yara behind. These characters increasing find a path cleared for them whenever the story demands it which again is one of the problems of this show as it goes beyond the books. Martin is a much better storyteller than the TV writers so he doesn't leave behind so many plot holes or lucky coincidences.

Isn't his long-term plan to seize the throne and have Sansa at his side, or am I wrong? The big issue to me is that the whole Sansa-Ramsay thing really made it difficult for him to get back in favor with her, even with the addition of his Vale forces that helped win the BOTB. Like I said before, I think he was biding his time a bit too much trying to go just for the Sansa-Arya ploy.

The bolded to me seems like an issue. But imagine Martin will have a lot of time,drafts,etc. to think that through. At the end of the day though, LF is still human. And I think Martin will still utilize the fact that his affection for Sansa is his weakness.

As for Theon, yea Euron being gone helps a bit.
 

Warrior Spirit

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He's all knowing only if he goes back and experiences it. That's how I see it also. When sam told him the tidbit about raegar who looks like danerys bitch ass bro lol he went back at that moment and confirmed Jon isn't a bastard
Haha. I was going to say the same when Ares first mentioned what an Ogre he looked like. I was expecting someone more mighty and regal looking myself. He was the crown prince after all.
 

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Now that Jamie has finally left, who commands her forces? do any of the Lannister forces defect with him? Qyburn looked really interested in that wight arm/hand. And it looks like we might see Cleagane bowl after all.

What did the Hound mean by his words about what was coming the Mountain's way do you think?
 

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