Game of Thrones Thread

[Warrior Spirit]

Did he say he can see future? If so I totally missed that

He did which confused me. He never has visions of the future that I have seen or he has stated facts from. Only the past. Maybe he has not developed this skill yet? I don't know... seems off to me.

I'm pretty certain he said no such thing. He said, "I can see things that happened in the past.
I can see things happening now all over the world."

 

[Bears_804]

I'm pretty certain he said no such thing. He said, "I can see things that happened in the past.
I can see things happening now all over the world."

My mistake. Just looked heavily for quote and didn't find it either. I must have remembered wrong.

 

[remydat]

It's funny how people can watch the same show and come away with such different interpretations of what they just seen. I will grant you the writing left a lot for the viewers to figure out on their own, but still, I thought this episode was one of the best writing wise of the entire season. And that is not to be confused with the most entertaining (aka the special effects of the episode 4 and 6).

The WF storyline left the viewer with the task of knowing that a lot went on behind the scenes, I will grant you that. But some of your points I will address:

1) How can you Lords trust Sansa when she said Lyssa committed suicide?

I don't think they particularly liked Lyssa to begin with, and remember, they were also informed that Lyssa had conspired with LF to kill Lord Arryn by poison. They could have bought into the fact that Sansa was just a scared little girl at the time.

2) How can you Lords trust Sansa when she betrayed her own brother Robb?

Same, she did what she had to do to survive.

3) How can you Lords trust Bran when he was not a witness to any of the events he described?

The Bran factor. How hard would it be for Bran to spend a bit of time with anyone who doubts him and show the Lords his recollections are accurate? Not hard at all for Bran to do, but a instance of just this with any of the Lord would have gone a long way it to understanding why they trust his visions.

LF panicked, he was at first denying the allegations, but when Bran brought up what LF said to Ned stark when he betrayed him verbatim LF lost his composure. At that moment, he knew Bran could dispute, and disprove anything LF might try to bring up in his defense (although it most certainly would have prolonged things a bit). When you add to the fact LF had secretly been whispering into all the Lords ears how Sansa should be the ruler of WF for the past several episodes, and then to have that same person accuse you of conspiring against the North, it pretty much leaves you in a very vulnerable position. One must remember it was always LF intent to install Sansa as lady of WF, and through proxy, or maybe even marriage, acquire the North in addition to the Vale. LF's plans took a hit first when Jon, not Sansa was elected KitN, which lead LF to work behind the scenes to discredit Jon, and then got really complicated upon Bran and Arya's arrivals. LF then started another one of his elaborate schemes, which was to pit Arya against Sansa, which would have lead to Sansa eventually passing judgment on Arya, and thus removing another one of LF's obstacles in his grand scheme.

1. Except Sansa is a confirmed liar. The Vale Lords generally have cared about protocol because when they thought Sansa was LF's niece, they were not prepared to accept testimony from her as being biased. Now, Sansa who obviously is related to Ned Stark is accusing LF of being complicit in his murder and is doing so by essentially saying she lied when she said her aunt committed suicide. It makes no sense for the Vale lords to simply ignore that given what we know of them on the show. Especially when Sansa sat there crying gave an Oscar worthy performance. That was not the lies of a scared girl. That was the lies of a professional liar.

2. Except the issue is LF never bothered to even bring it up which is Special person. Why would someone about to be killed be like, "Nah I'm not going to bring this up because I'm just going to assume the Lords won't care and think she was a scared girl." That's beyond stupid. When your life is on the line, you don't just neglect to mention information like that. Especially when once again, Sansa was crying a river when she claimed Lyssa committed suicide so by any rationale account, she can be quite manipulative.

3. If there was a scene where Bran did that then it would help but even then it is dubious. All it would prove is Bran is capable of seeing things but it doesn't disprove that he is incapable of liar. I can be a seer and a liar particularly if for whatever reason, my lying sister wants me to lie about a potential rival. Again it's truly odd that the Vale lords allow the Starks to just run a kangaroo court based on the word of an alleged seer and someone who if she is telling the truth is a liar and not in a scared little girl way but in a very calculated way.

4. There is no logical reason for LF to panic. He's dealt with far more menacing people before. And further, he panicked before Bran spoke because he admitted to killing Lysa which he had no reason to. Sansa had already claimed she committed suicide so his response to her should not have been to say he killed Lysa for her but to claim Sansa is lying as she already admitted Lysa committed suicide. There would be no logical way for Sansa or the Vale Lords to prove which version of Sansa's was correct.

5. Arya was never a threat so LF's entire plan was dumb from the start. Arya never desired WF so there was really no reason for LF to pit the sisters against each other. There was also no reason for Arya and Sansa to put on this show of theirs because they gained no evidence from doing so. It is clear this was just thrown in there to create drama and a reason to kill LF not because it was fundamental to the plot.

I will say this, this whole thing could have been resolved by simply having Sansa accuse LF, LF deny it pointing out correctly there was no hard evidence and then with things at an impasse, it being agreed a trial by combat would settle things. In that way LF still dies because he can't defeat Arya in a trial and has no champion to offer up in his stead and you avoid having one of the alleged smartest characters in the show suddenly turning into a moron when his defense was pretty simple. There is no evidence of his alleged crimes. Period.

 

[remydat]

Well, you can't say nothing was gained, although things surely didn't go as planned. Jamie leaving Cersie is no small feat, as he will not be easily replaced and now she has no battle commander, and Jamie will share Cersei's intent with Dany and Jon. What remains to be seen if others will defect to the Northern cause as well. I think it would be interesting that instead of having Jamie go North to join up with Dany/Jon, he instead travels first to the citadel to get the Maesters to send ravens to all the vassal houses in Westeros of what Jamie has seen, and what is coming.

I was saying nothing was gained really from Cersei's perspective. Her lie should be easily found out without plot induced stupidity was my point.

 

[remydat]

They didn't have nor need hard evidence remy.... it was a faux trial, just an execution.

The room was filled with guards who are loyal to Sansa... the only other Lord there was Yohn Royce from the Vale who never really trusted Little Finger.... presumably they convinced him well enough to allow it and keep the Vale supporting The North.

Little Finger allowed himself to walk into a room filled with guards loyal to Sansa because she let him believe she needed all those guards to handle Arya for her.

I agree they presented very little case... but they didn't need to, it wasn't a real trial in front of any questioning Lords or Ladies.

I am not asking what evidence to suggest it was a real trial. I am saying that LF's point should have been there was no evidence. He should have been arguing this was not a fair trial and was just the Starks tryign to rail road him. He still may have been executed but that would have least been in keeping with his calculated way. Further, I highly doubt book LF would have allowed the only people in that room to be Sansa's people. Earlier in the show, people talked about how LF has people everywhere but suddenly he decided to just let Sansa's people be in the room?

The whole thing is contrived. The dude literally told Sansa to fight all battles all the time and yet comes so unprepared to this battle and never anticipates or thinks about what if the women he convinced to go to Ramsey and who got raped might be playing him? Sorry that wasn't LF they killed. They killed someone impersonating LF because LF isn't generally that Special person.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

The con was unnecessary and stupid though. What evidence did they gather during the con? The answer is none. So what was the point of it beyond the writers creating unexplainable drama. If you ignore the whole con, you could have written the exact same scene accusing LF and nothing changes. So it's a completely pointless plot element that serves no purpose in the story. It would make sense if the con led to LF incriminating himself but the fact is Bran was the reason for his crimes coming to light rendering the whole Arya and Sansa thing as completely and utterly useless.



Well I think Theon will go and rescue Yara because Euron will be gone. So his tiny band of men that should have no chance of freeing here will be met with little resistance because he will find them gone. Perhaps he even alerts Dany before Jamie can because Yara will tell him that Euron has sailed to Essos. In any event though, it's yet another contrived plot point because by all rights, the first move from Dany should have been to burn Euron's ships to the ground. The dude clearly intimates he will just wait for the NK to kill everyone so no truce has been made with him. So there is no honor holding them back from wiping out Euron and his fleet except plot induced stupidity.

The con did catch him off guard and unprepared. I don't know why you or anybody would be hung up on whether there was enough evidence or not? There's never a lot of evidence required in GOT and just the fact leaders or rulers make the allegations is enough to sway others. We, as viewers, know LF was guilty as hell anyway.

I don't believe for a second that the Theon arc of redemption will be completed by simply rescuing Yara from a small group of weaklings. Think they'll have him kill Euron as unbelievable as it sounds.

 

[ZOMBIE@CTESPN]

The theon scenes were a waste of time and filler crap idt anyone cares about theon redemption. His coolness as a character died when Ramsay lost him. Btw that was some funny shit when he kept trying kneeing theon in the nuts and nothing happened lmfao

 

[Ares]

I am not asking what evidence to suggest it was a real trial. I am saying that LF's point should have been there was no evidence. He should have been arguing this was not a fair trial and was just the Starks tryign to rail road him. He still may have been executed but that would have least been in keeping with his calculated way. Further, I highly doubt book LF would have allowed the only people in that room to be Sansa's people. Earlier in the show, people talked about how LF has people everywhere but suddenly he decided to just let Sansa's people be in the room?

The whole thing is contrived. The dude literally told Sansa to fight all battles all the time and yet comes so unprepared to this battle and never anticipates or thinks about what if the women he convinced to go to Ramsey and who got raped might be playing him? Sorry that wasn't LF they killed. They killed someone impersonating LF because LF isn't generally that Special person.

I think he knew very quickly that arguing the evidence was useless.... he knows it is just Sansa/Bran/Arya judging him.

The only thing I'll say is, Little Finger always had the confidence that his manipulations worked.... he definitely had become overconfident.

Sansa's deception was pretty simplistic.... had she tried to do more I think she would have failed.

I don't love the way Little Finger went out, but I did see it going this way.... he wasn't going to scheme and talk his way out of things forever.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

1. Except Sansa is a confirmed liar. The Vale Lords generally have cared about protocol because when they thought Sansa was LF's niece, they were not prepared to accept testimony from her as being biased. Now, Sansa who obviously is related to Ned Stark is accusing LF of being complicit in his murder and is doing so by essentially saying she lied when she said her aunt committed suicide. It makes no sense for the Vale lords to simply ignore that given what we know of them on the show. Especially when Sansa sat there crying gave an Oscar worthy performance. That was not the lies of a scared girl. That was the lies of a professional liar.

2. Except the issue is LF never bothered to even bring it up which is Special person. Why would someone about to be killed be like, "Nah I'm not going to bring this up because I'm just going to assume the Lords won't care and think she was a scared girl." That's beyond stupid. When your life is on the line, you don't just neglect to mention information like that. Especially when once again, Sansa was crying a river when she claimed Lyssa committed suicide so by any rationale account, she can be quite manipulative.

3. If there was a scene where Bran did that then it would help but even then it is dubious. All it would prove is Bran is capable of seeing things but it doesn't disprove that he is incapable of liar. I can be a seer and a liar particularly if for whatever reason, my lying sister wants me to lie about a potential rival. Again it's truly odd that the Vale lords allow the Starks to just run a kangaroo court based on the word of an alleged seer and someone who if she is telling the truth is a liar and not in a scared little girl way but in a very calculated way.

4. There is no logical reason for LF to panic. He's dealt with far more menacing people before. And further, he panicked before Bran spoke because he admitted to killing Lysa which he had no reason to. Sansa had already claimed she committed suicide so his response to her should not have been to say he killed Lysa for her but to claim Sansa is lying as she already admitted Lysa committed suicide. There would be no logical way for Sansa or the Vale Lords to prove which version of Sansa's was correct.

5. Arya was never a threat so LF's entire plan was dumb from the start. Arya never desired WF so there was really no reason for LF to pit the sisters against each other. There was also no reason for Arya and Sansa to put on this show of theirs because they gained no evidence from doing so. It is clear this was just thrown in there to create drama and a reason to kill LF not because it was fundamental to the plot.

I will say this, this whole thing could have been resolved by simply having Sansa accuse LF, LF deny it pointing out correctly there was no hard evidence and then with things at an impasse, it being agreed a trial by combat would settle things. In that way LF still dies because he can't defeat Arya in a trial and has no champion to offer up in his stead and you avoid having one of the alleged smartest characters in the show suddenly turning into a moron when his defense was pretty simple. There is no evidence of his alleged crimes. Period.

1. She's not lying this time so what's the problem.

2. LF no longer has that note. Arya does so what proof of it does LF have?

3. Bran can show his skills as 3 eyed raven to anybody. Wouldn't take long to convince them.

4. Plenty of cause for LF to panic. He's guilty and doesn't have a single friend in the room. The only Lord of the Vale there is also happy as fuck to see him die.

5. Sansa pointed to how he's divided families before. It's the simple divide and conquer strategy. Sansa was his ticket to greater power. Arya was a loose cannon and more loyal to Jon.

 

[remydat]

The con did catch him off guard and unprepared. I don't know why you or anybody would be hung up on whether there was enough evidence or not? There's never a lot of evidence required in GOT and just the fact leaders or rulers make the allegations is enough to sway others. We, as viewers, know LF was guilty as hell anyway.

I don't believe for a second that the Theon arc of redemption will be completed by simply rescuing Yara from a small group of weaklings. Think they'll have him kill Euron as unbelievable as it sounds.

He would have been caught off guard regardless. They could have dragged him out of his room and made the same accusations. The con serves no purpose on the story. It was contrived solely for the viewer.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

He would have been caught off guard regardless. They could have dragged him out of his room and made the same accusations. The con serves no purpose on the story. It was contrived solely for the viewer.

This made him more off guard as evidenced by his shocked look and then saying "Lady Sansa, forgive me I'm a bit confused." They were also trying to tease more tension between Arya and Sansa than what really existed and show the wolf pack surviving by sticking together. They're telling a story and this part actually makes more sense than others.

 

[Warden of the Northeast]

Wait one second, so if Jon is heir to the Iron Throne the only way Dany can claim it is by overthrowing Jon? So there's no way that it'll be a happy ending between the two?

 

[remydat]

1. She's not lying this time so what's the problem.

2. LF no longer has that note. Arya does so what proof of it does LF have?

3. Bran can show his skills as 3 eyed raven to anybody. Wouldn't take long to convince them.

4. Plenty of cause for LF to panic. He's guilty and doesn't have a single friend in the room. The only Lord of the Vale there is also happy as fuck to see him die.

5. Sansa pointed to how he's divided families before. It's the simple divide and conquer strategy. Sansa was his ticket to greater power. Arya was a loose cannon and more loyal to Jon.

1. How does anyone know that? Does the Vale lord have some magic potion that proves she is telling the truth now?

2. Which is why pitting then against each other using the note was stupid. And he has as much proof as Sansa and co have of him. Not sure why we are accepting LF acting like a fool in the face of unprovable accusations buy yet holding him to some standard of needing provable evidence.

3. So then they should have done that them instead of wasting time with a con that serves no purpose. And again evening h3 does it doesn t prove he isn't a liar. Just because I can see things doesn t mean I can't lie about what I see.

4. He doesn't have a friend in the room because the story turns him into a buffoon. The Vale dude is happy to see him die because the story ignores Sansa lying to him, makes him trust Bran with no evidence. In short the story makes him panic not because it is in character for him to do so but because the writers control the narrative and wrote a completely out of character LF in order to quickly dispose of him.

5. Arya has no power with anyone for it to make sense for him to risk it. LF divided families before when it made sense. Arya posed no immediate threat.

Let me ask a simple question. You have read the books. Do you see LF being this stupid in the books? Did you not point out before TV show LF has strayed from the essence of book LF ever since he gave Sansa to Ramsey? My point simply is TV show LF was turned into an imbecile in order to kill him off quickly. His actions here make no sense.

 

[remydat]

This made him more off guard as evidenced by his shocked look and then saying "Lady Sansa, forgive me I'm a bit confused." They were also trying to tease more tension between Arya and Sansa than what really existed and show the wolf pack surviving by sticking together. They're telling a story and this part actually makes more sense than others.

Yes we all know they were creating more tension as that's my point. There is no good in story reason to drag this out.

There is no need to catch him off guard if ultimately it was a fake trial to begin with because his fate was sealed once Bran told them the truth. So the drama here is artificial as it's drama to please the audience. Not drama that makes sense in the story. In the story if they simply intended to rail road and murder him then the con is unnecessary.

He's going to die with or without the con.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Wait one second, so if Jon is heir to the Iron Throne the only way Dany can claim it is by overthrowing Jon? So there's no way that it'll be a happy ending between the two?

Jon wouldn't want to rule and Dany wouldn't stand in his way if he did want to, with him being the father of her human child.

 

[remydat]

I think he knew very quickly that arguing the evidence was useless.... he knows it is just Sansa/Bran/Arya judging him.

The only thing I'll say is, Little Finger always had the confidence that his manipulations worked.... he definitely had become overconfident.

Sansa's deception was pretty simplistic.... had she tried to do more I think she would have failed.

I don't love the way Little Finger went out, but I did see it going this way.... he wasn't going to scheme and talk his way out of things forever.

But again what's the point of deception. He's going to die once Bran told the truth. They could have dragged him out and held a fake trial anytime so her deception serves no purpose in story. It's just there to excite the audience.

There is simply no way I can see a character like LF being that unprepared to defend himself. He's been conning people for years and had to know this day would come one day and he folds like a bad lawn chair. I would expect him to have some info He could dangle in exchange for his life like Snows parents. I expect him to have thought about some plan in the event Sansa ever betrayed him as that is what he does. He plans for the worst. We know this as he literally told Sansa that's what he does and yet he had no plan her for dealing with the woman he sent off to be raped? Come on dude that's not LF.

It's no different than when brawler Ramsey can't even land a hit on Snow and just takes a beating. I expect Ramsey to die and I expect LF to die. However I expect their death to be somewhat in character and neither was. They both essentially die in a way completely against their natures mainly because the writers just wanted things wrapped up quickly.

In any event we won't agree on this it seems so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

1. How does anyone know that? Does the Vale lord have some magic potion that proves she is telling the truth now?

2. Which is why pitting then against each other using the note was stupid. And he has as much proof as Sansa and co have of him. Not sure why we are accepting LF acting like a fool in the face of unprovable accusations buy yet holding him to some standard of needing provable evidence.

3. So then they should have done that them instead of wasting time with a con that serves no purpose. And again evening h3 does it doesn t prove he isn't a liar. Just because I can see things doesn t mean I can't lie about what I see.

4. He doesn't have a friend in the room because the story turns him into a buffoon. The Vale dude is happy to see him die because the story ignores Sansa lying to him, makes him trust Bran with no evidence. In short the story makes him panic not because it is in character for him to do so but because the writers control the narrative and wrote a completely out of character LF in order to quickly dispose of him.

5. Arya has no power with anyone for it to make sense for him to risk it. LF divided families before when it made sense. Arya posed no immediate threat.

Let me ask a simple question. You have read the books. Do you see LF being this stupid in the books? Did you not point out before TV show LF has strayed from the essence of book LF ever since he gave Sansa to Ramsey? My point simply is TV show LF was turned into an imbecile in order to kill him off quickly. His actions here make no sense.

Arya is obviously a threat to anybody's life now. And LF likely feared she was more likely to kill him than Sansa and also knew, as all did, she would vigorously support Jon.

No, I didn't read the books but the show has surpassed them. Even in the show LF looked more clever and ahead of the game in earlier seasons. But what happens to the con man after many of his cons have played out and most are aware of the con man's game now? He becomes weaker and far less clever cause too many people see him for exactly what he is.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Wait one second, so if Jon is heir to the Iron Throne the only way Dany can claim it is by overthrowing Jon? So there's no way that it'll be a happy ending between the two?

I'm curious to see what Dany and Jon's reaction will be once they know. The Targaryens are obviously notorious for incest, but I'm not sure if Dany wants to continue that trend. I can't recall if she's directly mentioned her family's incestuous past, at least on the show. I don't think Jon is exactly a big fan of incest, but I think the Starks have a history as well.

On the other hand, they do seem to make a pretty good couple. We'll see.

As for the throne, Jon has never really cared for the throne. He has always had a strong attachment to the North and Winterfell. I happen to think revelations on his bloodline won't change that. Rhaegar is his biological father, but his uncle Ned has been his real father, practically speaking. Both prefer honor over chasing power.

Although, I think many people will want him to be king, for good reason. I think it's possible that Dany and Jon end up ruling side by side, fully uniting the Targaryens and the Starks, effectively(Ice and Fire).

 

[ZOMBIE@CTESPN]

Wait one second, so if Jon is heir to the Iron Throne the only way Dany can claim it is by overthrowing Jon? So there's no way that it'll be a happy ending between the two?

They're fucking now so it's all good lol

I guess this is a way for peace in 7 kingdoms you get danerys full targaryan boning a half stark/targaryan

 

[Warden of the Northeast]

An heir to the throne can't just say "nah, I'm good...let someone else rule" can they?

Also the way Tyrion was acting as the sex played out proves he knew all along, that Jon and Dany are related.