- Joined:
- Sep 12, 2010
- Posts:
- 41,912
- Liked Posts:
- 15,376
She'll never have that baby. Likely die before she would. I think the little guy makes it to the end.
Game of Thrones Thread
- Thread starter Rush
- Start date
- Joined:
- Nov 27, 2014
- Posts:
- 18,607
- Liked Posts:
- 4,620
Interestingly enough, that is the one spoiler that didn't come true this season. My guess is they hold it off until the first few episodes of next season, Cersei miscarriages, Jamie has left, Theon kills Euron, no Golden Co. for Cersei, and she go's full on bat shit crazy.
The only thing left is to who kills the (in the Hounds words) cunt.
- Joined:
- Sep 15, 2012
- Posts:
- 59,907
- Liked Posts:
- 38,520
So he fucked with Arya and Sansa without any assurances that Sansa was even on his side? You know the same Sansa that was weary of him because she was repeatedly raped by the dude he told her to marry.
This is not how LF operates. He got Lysa to write the letter and manipulated her because he knew she was obsessed with him. There is no reason for him to fuck with Arya and Sansa until such time that he can count on Sansa wanting to take the throne from Jon. Let's say his plan worked and he got Arya and Sansa apart. And? Sansa still to this point had given no indication that she was willing to take the throne from Jon so it's a dumb play. It's putting the cart before the horse.
Let's just leave it at this. I will be shocked if Martin doesn't come up with a smarter and better way to end LF as LF's whole plan was stupid. Sansa and Arya's whole con was stupid, LF walking into that room with no ally was stupid, and LF having no defense prepared when he's spent a lifetime deceiving people was stupid.
- Joined:
- Aug 21, 2012
- Posts:
- 29,520
- Liked Posts:
- 24,054
- Location:
- USA
i dont like the way they ended LF. it seemed anticlimactic and with a whimper.
- Joined:
- Sep 15, 2012
- Posts:
- 59,907
- Liked Posts:
- 38,520
No I am hinging my arguments on the fact that it's shitty fucking writing to leave all this shit unsaid. If you want me to just assume all this shit took place off camera then what's the point of me watching the show? I might as well write my own fan fiction that fills in all the gaps in the story.
If the Maester had all these scrolls with proof then the show should have taken the 1 minute or so it would have taken to produce that evidence instead of wasting time with the Arya and Sansa bullshit. Like I am not sure what your argument is. I am telling you it is terrible writing and you are telling me it is great writing and then admitting that half the shit that would be required to tell a coherent story was left in the cutting room floor. That's doesn't prove something was great writing. That just proves it was terrible fucking editing.
But hey, sounds like the original draft that had Sansa with proof sounds like a great story. Too bad some idiot decided to ignore it and came up with the shit that aired on Sunday night instead.
- Joined:
- Sep 15, 2012
- Posts:
- 59,907
- Liked Posts:
- 38,520
That would be pretty dumb of him. Joffery was a tool that deserved to die. I am not sure how he is responsible for Tommen or Myrcella. Tommen literally committed suicide not because of Tyrion but because of his horrible mother blowing up his wife and hundreds of other people. For her to blame Tyrion for that and for him to accept it is pretty dumb.
Having said that, I fear you are right and that is what will happen. It's become increasingly clear that the writers are fumbling around in the dark trying to piece together a coherent story based on Martin's cliff notes. Just about every flaw in the story this season seems to be the result of straying too far from the source material.
- Joined:
- Sep 12, 2010
- Posts:
- 41,912
- Liked Posts:
- 15,376
If you look at the last video posted by ncogneto, you'd see LF had every reason to believe he had been successful and convinced Sansa that Arya had returned to kill her so he must have been certain he had her back under his control. And, yes, she even feigns interest in taking over for Jon but says Arya would never allow it. Thus the move to pass sentence on Arya and get her out of the way. At least, that's what LF was certain was going to happen.
- Joined:
- Nov 27, 2014
- Posts:
- 18,607
- Liked Posts:
- 4,620
I can't argue the fact that a little more could have been explained if they had not shortened the season. Still all the clues were there, it just took some intelligence to figure out what was going on. The Maester (who by the way was the same Maester at WF since the beginning) had saved the scroll from when Sansa sent the raven to Rob, so the ground was set showing he saved all the scrolls, ever sent to WF. We also seen several different times Sansa reading over the books the Maester had kept.
Not all of us need, or even want, little pop up bubbles with arrows pointing out these subtle clues, so the point is, not everyone agrees to what "great writing" even is. You happen to be one of those that needs everything laid out before him while I prefer to be tasked with putting together the puzzle.
- Joined:
- Nov 27, 2014
- Posts:
- 18,607
- Liked Posts:
- 4,620
It does seems that D & D are approaching things backwards. What I mean by this is they start with a allotment of episodes. For instance lets do this past season as example so they go like this:
episode 1
episode 2
episode 3
episode 4
episode 5
episode 6
episode 7
then they decide which episdoes will be the major action sequences (they love having the episode prior to the finale being the major action sequence)
episode 1
episode 2
episode 3
episode 4 Dragon action vs lannisters
episode 5
episode 6 Dragon action vs WW's
episode 7 cliff hanger
They then fill in the spaces, and the problem with this is the battles are driving the story line, when if fact it should be the other way around, and the battles should fall were they fit, not in some predetermined pattern. Instead they go from that to:
episode 1 finish off last seasons cliff hanger, set the stage for the season
episode 2 move the plot forward
episode 3 deal the hero (dany) a setback
episode 4 Dragon action vs lannisters
episode 5 move plot forward
episode 6 Dragon action vs WW's
episode 7 cliff hanger
- Joined:
- Sep 15, 2012
- Posts:
- 59,907
- Liked Posts:
- 38,520
Lol, feign interest. Who gambling their life on that shit? Certainly not the LF from the books or the one earlier in the series. Did LF watch Lysa kill her husband? Or did he simply plant the seed and then watch it grow from afar?
The thing that make this even dumber is that Bran had already given LF a hint that he knew things he couldn't possibly know when he repeated LF's Chaos is a ladder statement. Again, the LF from the books or earlier in the show would immediately have been concerned about how Bran could possibly know that saying. At no point does he question Bran as to where he heard that statement and instead decides the best course of action is not to figure out what the fuck Bran knows but instead to go fuck with his sisters? It truly defies logic.
- Joined:
- Sep 15, 2012
- Posts:
- 59,907
- Liked Posts:
- 38,520
No I don't need everything laid out for me. Major plot elements should not be left dangling particularly when it revolves around killing off a major character. I mean let's list the major elements of LF's death.
1. Sansa found proof of LF's deeds.
2. Sansa told the Vale dude about this proof and off screen gave him a riveting excuse as to why she lied the first time.
3. Bran provided proof of his abilities off screen as well and the Vale dude was like, "Ok makes sense Mr. Three Eyed Raven"
4. Sansa despite having this proof then confronts LF and never presents it.
5. LF never reveals any incriminating information he has on Sansa because of reasons.
6. LF never bothers to ponder how Bran knew about the Chaos is a ladder thing nor wonders if there is any other private conversations Bran knows.
Now let's stop here. There comes a point where so much of the story is left off the screen that it renders the story stupid. Maybe one or two of these things happening and you can give it a pass but having all of these things happening renders the story on screen incomplete and terrible in my view.
Like by this logic, they never should have revealed Jon's parents on the show since we could have figured it out ourselves by following the clues. In addition, next season, they should just not bother with explaining who the NK really is on screen and in fact Jamie should just kill him off screen because you know, they can just leave subtle clues for us to speculate on exactly what happened.
SMH!
- Joined:
- Nov 27, 2014
- Posts:
- 18,607
- Liked Posts:
- 4,620
Sansa didn't need to present the proof, when accused, LF confessed, thus rendering any need for Sansa to show the proof unnecessary, regardless of it existed or not.
- Joined:
- Sep 12, 2010
- Posts:
- 41,912
- Liked Posts:
- 15,376
Did he kill Lysa's husband? Absolutely, he conspired to do just that and provided the poison too and did outright kill Lysa for his own selfish desires.
As for Bran, nobody seemed to know what the 3 eyed raven even was. I don't think LF was near as concerned with Bran as he is with Arya. With Bran there is now a disconnect first witnessed and noted by Sansa but with Arya you have a trained assassin who doesn't stand for bullshit which is all a con man like LF has. LF wants Sansa back under his wing and very much wants her in power over Jon and Sansa had made it very clear to him that Arya loves Jon and would not allow such a thing.
I find it odd that you keep referring to the book LF even though the show has passed that point and likely not even reached this point where Sansa just lost all respect for him while coming of age and gaining more wisdom. The more I argue with you about this, the more I think it was actually well done on the show. The girl becomes a woman who out cons the con man.
This is really just a case of you liking this particular character and wishing he was elevated more rather than taken out by a couple of girls.
- Joined:
- Sep 15, 2012
- Posts:
- 59,907
- Liked Posts:
- 38,520
Which is yet more reason the story was shitty. Sansa didn't need to provide proof because the writers had LF confess to something he shouldn't have confessed. Do you not understand my criticism is of the writing. LF's actions here are Special person. They are Special person because the writers need them to be Special person in order to justify their leaving out half the story. Here this guy pretty much echoes everything I have said.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...-review-the-dragon-and-the-wolf/#296a27af485d
I've had many unkind words about the Winterfell storyline. I've also discussed the possibility that it was all a ruse, that the Starks were playing Littlefinger at his own game. I maintain that both these things remain true, even after tonight's reveal.
It was enormously frustrating to watch as Sansa was apparently manipulated even more by Littlefinger. She even had Arya brought before her and Bran (that Bran was there was the first giveaway that it was, indeed, a trap for Baelish.)
It was great and satisfying, or at least a huge relief, to discover that it was all Arya's plot to unveil Littlefinger as a traitor. Sansa reveals his crimes. Bran throws Littlefinger's own words to their father at him. Littlefinger cries like a baby and Arya slashes his throat. What a relief that that's all done with.
Except, I can't help but feel like it was all done for our sake, rather than for Littelfinger's. After all, why even bother with the charade if they could just accuse him at any time? If they knew he had betrayed Ned and Catelyn, why go to all this trouble to trick him? Why not just accuse him and execute him right away?
I know! I have the answer!
It wasn't done because it made sense. Nothing about the past few episodes between Arya and Sansa were done to cleverly fool Littlefinger. The Stark girls learned nothing and gained nothing from this deception. The entire thing was done to fool us, dear reader. It was done to mess with us and to toy with our emotions.
So again, as much as I love the fact that Littlefinger was ultimately unveiled as the mastermind behind most of the events that transpired over the past few seasons, in the end it was all a big farce that never needed to happen. Filler, and worse than that, the kind of filler designed to screw with viewers in the most hamfisted of ways. I maintain that, in spite of it all, this was a dirty trick and nothing more. If there were some greater 'game of thrones' behind it all, I'd eat my hat. Alas, it was all a cheap mummer's play with no substance.
To make matters worse, Littlefinger hasn't made sense in several seasons now. There was no reason for him to leave the Vale, to sell off Sansa to the Boltons, to break faith with the Lannisters, or to stick around in the North after all was said and done. Whatever brilliant scheming Baelish achieved early on, he lost his gift some years ago now. It was only a matter of time before he was checked off Arya's list.
Alas, I think the great schemer deserved more. I'm not sad he's dead, I'm just sad this is how it all played out.
Let's leave his body rotting on the cobblestones. Let's fly south, hundreds upon hundreds of leagues, to the slowly chilling walls of....
- Joined:
- Sep 15, 2012
- Posts:
- 59,907
- Liked Posts:
- 38,520
You are missing the point. He obviously was involved in killing her husband. The point was he allowed things to play out from a SAFE distance. He in now way put himself at risk. Yet here we have him walking into a room with no allies and with an assassin and a woman who was raped because of advice he gave her. It's a pretty stupid risk to take based on feigned interest as you call it.
And yes we agree LF was not as concerned with Bran as he was with Arya which is precisely why it's plot induced stupidity. Bran literally told him something that only LF and Varys would know and yet at no point does LF try and find out how. It's absurd. This would be like Bran telling me where I hid a body and then instead of being concerned with Bran, I decide to go worry about his sister. LF doesn't have to know what being the 3 eyed raven means. All he needs to know is this cripple magically knows something that no one aside from LF and Varys should know. That should have immediately put Bran on his radar because LF trades on information and should know the power of information and Bran flat out gives him LF information that it is humanly impossible for him to have. How does that not make Bran the greater threat?
Sansa never out cons the con man. That's what makes it so unfulfilling. She is told things by Bran. LF cons people based on his own merit. Based on things he has learned and information he has gathered not through some super special ability but based on his own hard work and intuition. Sansa simply acquires information based on Bran being the 3 eyed raven. There is no skill in that. There is no game of thrones being played. It's merely someone possessing information in a way that is impossible for anyone else to have.
If we play poker and I can see what is in your hand, I haven't outplayed you. I won because I can see what is in your hand. Duh! Bran is the winner here not Sansa or Arya and he's a winner because he has a cheat not because he outsmarted or out conned someone.
And once again, as the article I posted points out, there was no point to the con as once Bran tells them the truth, LF could have been killed by them at any point. The con is merely for the viewer. It serves no purpose in story as the story literally would not change at all without it. LF is dead either way because Bran revealed the truth.
P.S. The point about the books is that LF as a character has been butchered precisely because the TV show writers didn't understand or know what to do with the character after they passed the material in the books. It is evident that as they got past what was in the books that LF became dumber and dumber. Further, they changed him from the books the minute they had him give up Sansa to Ramsey. So I doubt the LF in the books will die with such a whimper because Martin simply has a better handle and understanding of the character than the TV show writers.
- Joined:
- Sep 12, 2010
- Posts:
- 41,912
- Liked Posts:
- 15,376
Bran is the ace in the hole but not all that you say in this case. Sansa witnessed the murder of Lysa herself. And before Bran returned Sansa was already wise to what LF truly was and already suspicious of him when he first started trying to drive a wedge between the sisters. The con was run to catch LF completely off guard and basically get him to confess his crimes which he pretty much did immediately admitting to killing Lysa. Even when he later said, "I deny it! None of you were there to see what happened. None of you knows the truth" it was obvious he was lying and desperate as hell. Yeah, they knew most of what he did from Bran's visions but they broke LF with their own con game. That's why he ended up on his knees begging for mercy.
It's not unusual for viewers to not like the way certain characters go out but there was a bigger story being told. This was vengeance for GOT's favorite family that viewers have waited many years to see. They had been split up for many years, many of them dying and all of them suffering horrible fates and much of it due to this LF character who has no redeeming values and deserved to die. This was about the Starks coming together again, each one stronger from their own experiences but still stronger together.
Warden of the Northeast
THE WALL
- Joined:
- Oct 9, 2012
- Posts:
- 11,757
- Liked Posts:
- 6,173
I was expecting more from LF quite honestly, the's 7 episode seasons are forcing the writers to go way too fast and certain characters aren't getting the full storyline they deserve.
- Joined:
- Nov 27, 2014
- Posts:
- 18,607
- Liked Posts:
- 4,620
LOL, so your offer of proof is some dolt that is no more invested in the show than any of us, and has a gripe similar to you. The fact someone has given him a column is no more relevant than any blow hard sports columnist with an opinion. I can assure you that if I search, I can find other columns written by other people who happen to disagree with the link you provided.
For starters the whole thing wasn't an elaborate scheme from the get go, and that is the part your columnist got wrong, so any argument built on that assumption is also wrong. It wasn't until the last episode that Sansa started to put things together. The tensions between the sisters was real, until they came together and decided to take down a common foe. The thought that they had been conspiring the whole time is nonsensical, as to what would be the point of the scenes of the two of them together in private leading up to this episode be?
Your consistently crying about a lack of any proof. How much proof was needed during Ned's trial? During Tyrion's? did you expect Sansa to roll out the video tape and have Qyburn produce some DNA evidence? I have already explained the fact that it wold be fairly easy for the Sisters and Bran to provide all the proof they needed to convince the lords LF was guilty, the fact they didn't do so was because LF admitted his guilt. That doesn't mean they didn't have proof, only that it was no longer necessary to provide it after the confession.
When confronted with this explanation, your response is " Well bad writing....blah blah blah, the writers should have shown us the girls gathering the proof". Well then, had they chosen to do that, they would not have been able to setup the scene as they did, with the plot twist that it was LF on trial, and not Arya. Sorry, but that would have been boring as hell.
Lastly, you think LF should have not confessed, rather demanded to see the proof, denying the allegations to the bitter end. I'm not quite sure what you seem to think this would have accomplished, as it's quite obvious the burden of proof is considerable less in the midevil storyline than it is today in a court of law. LF made a quick assessment of the situation at hand, and determined (and rightfully so) that his best course of action for survival was not to deny the allegations, but rather to beg for mercy and somehow justify his actions by saying he did it all for Sansa. He knew his goose was cooked, he incorrectly made an assumption that Sansa was back under his control, and he thought things were proceeding exactly as he had planned. He was overconfident and careless, and it cost him his life.
- Joined:
- Aug 21, 2012
- Posts:
- 42,044
- Liked Posts:
- 34,782
Now we will wait like 2 years for the final season which is only 6 episodes.
I hope everyone realizes the problem is that they have crossed a line from having RR Martin's written works edited to then just having w/e manuscript for Winds of Winter which was enough for them to get by, but now they have crossed into vague plot point/cliff note territory.
Imagine if JK Rowling had written the 6 Harry Potter books and then the movie screenwriters had to write the 7th movie based off her vaguely describing how things finish up....
TV and Movie writers do a great job (mostly) of taking well written and edited novels and then condensing them down to what will fit into a movie or tv season.... what they don't do well is write brand new original material and that is what they are being tasked with for these last 2 seasons of GoT.... that is why the writing seems so much worse than in the past.... in the past they weren't writing the entire story based off vague plot points, they just had to condense RR Martin's story into episodes.... now they are responsible for everything.... every plot component, every character, every piece of dialogue, everything.
It is like if you were responsible for filling pot holes in your town's roads and suddenly they tell you that you are now responsible for your entire State's Dept of Transportation lol....
- Joined:
- Sep 15, 2012
- Posts:
- 59,907
- Liked Posts:
- 38,520
Where did I say I was offering proof? It's my opinion. I simply provided evidence that my opinion was shared by others. Sansa didn't figure things out. Bran told them, lol. Again the story would have been much better if Bran wasn't involved. LF could have been condemned without him. Instead the writers decided to include him so we are left to assume he used his magic foresight powers to tell them so giving Sansa credit is a bit laughable. Also you assuming the tension was real is in fact an assumption. Spartan is saying it was a con the whole time. You can't prove or disprove his claim because the story isnt explicit. There is nothing to suggest that Bran didn't know the truth from the time he came to WF and he and his sisters obviously talked about LF prior to the tension. So why would Bran not have told them from the start. For your theory to work, we have to assume that Bran for some inexplicable reason waited until the sisters were going after each other to tell them the truth. The most likely time for Bran to have revealed the truth was when they were in the garden talking about LF. Not after Sansa and Arya were fighting.
You claim the proof was in the original draft. You claim the proof was on the cutting room floor so obviously someone recognized that proof was necessary or they wouldn't have included it in the first place. And no they didn't have to show us the girls gathering proof. They simply had to produce the proof at the fake trial. Duh! It's like you don't understand the argument being made. The argument is that his confession was dumb because he hadn't seen any actual evidence. So there was no reason for him to confess. So in response to that argument, it's pretty dumb to say well no evidence was necessary because he confessed because that's a circular argument. The dude behaved like a petty criminal who spills the beans the minute he is questioned. The in character response for someone like LF that has been accused with zero hard evidence produced is to deny things until such time that said evidence was produced. Only after seeing that evidence do you resort to begging for mercy.
Finally, his being overconfident and careless is precisely not how LF behaves. My argument is the character has been written like an idiot ever since he convinced Sansa to go to Ramsey. This final scene is simply the final evidence of that. Do you agree or disagree with that argument and if so what is your counter argument? Like I am not sure how you expect to convince me of something by pointing to the very things LF did that I find idiotic for his character and then using them to support your argument.