Game of Thrones Thread

[Ares]

Again I am not saying they 100% conjured the material. I am saying even when they had the material, they fucked it up whenever they decided to stray too far from the book. Ellaria in the book doesn't want revenge. She in fact was trying to stop Oberyn's daughters from seeking revenge so I see no way for that to suddenly change in the books. Myrcella was not murdered by Dorne. In fact, Dorne supports Myrcella as rightful Queen because Dorne doesn't have a bias against females when it comes to succession. I see no way the books could get anywhere near what the TV show did. Tommen does not commit suicide in the books because Cersei blowing them up was not in the books.

So my point is simply, they fuck things up not only when they lack the material from Martin but even when they have that material and they stray too far from it.

Ok, but the subject of our dialogue is how them crossing the line past having his material to work off of has become and will be a major impact on the quality of the show and time it takes them to produce it.

I don't disagree they butchered alot of the book story, but wanted to be clear that we cannot use the Dorne plot in the show as proof they can easily write their own original material..... it was like 10-15 minutes of an episode.... Myrcella was in Dorne just as in the books and they made up this chunk of plot, perhaps inspired in some way by the source material in Winds of Winter.... they didn't have nothing and write that chunk of plot.

They have almost nothing right now and need to conjure original source material out of thin air.... that is a very hard task... I know first hand as I am writing my own.... if it were an easy task then everyone would do it and make boatloads of money selling their novel series to HBO.

The biggest issues you see in the show this season and next will root back to the fact you have TV writers trying to conjure up original source material to fill in the 90-95% gap that Martin has left them.

You will always have writers butchering some of a written work.... it doesn't all fit in a show or movie, it is what it is.... the show still works and for 6 seasons wasn't leaving you scratching your head wondering why things seemed so disjointed.... but once they lost the foundation of Martin's written work, you see what you get when these writers must conjure all the material from scratch... it is much worse than just mistakes or concessions trying to fit a book into a tv season.

 

[The Hawk]

LF wanted control of the North. he couldn't get that by just sitting on his thumbs with the Vale. He couldn't get it through Bran. He obviously couldn't get it from Jon. He damn sure couldn't get it from Arya. His end game relied on his alliance with Sansa.



1. Of course it was a con. Arya and Sansa were never divided. You could see that when they turned the tables on LF. You could see it when they were alone together and complimenting each other after LF was killed. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." The pack was together again after many years of being separated. They were stronger for it and never gave a single thought to turning on each other.

2. It was a fake trial in that a trial was not needed when you already have the answers. They knew LF would be caught off guard and just require a nudge here and there to completely break.

3. The tension was never real. I'm certain of that. Bran knew about that dagger the second it was handed to him. Did he tell his sisters about it? Likely he did considering he told them about LF holding it against their father's throat. You can say it was stupid to have LF give it to him but LF didn't know or understand what Bran had become. He was positing that it was the weapon the Lannisters tried to use against him.

I can see you being upset with the Bolton thing, thinking it made no sense cause his plan was never completely revealed and would require significant rationalizing to make sense of. But we know he wanted the North and Sansa was his only tool to get it. He couldn't have imagined Jon would return. Nor could he have imagined Arya and Bran would return and nobody seemed to understand what Bran had become. So all of that set him back quite a bit. But for him, it was always about getting Sansa to feel indebted to him and use his alliance with her to build an army powerful enough to gain the Iron Throne.

Good stuff. I loved the scene when they turned the tables on Littlefinger. I loved the look on LF's face when Bran talked about him holding the dagger to Ned Starks throat. As in "how in the fuck does he know that"? IT also goes back to Arya and Sansa ACTING and also probably using LF's "spies" to provide them with what LF told them.

 

[Ares]

Good stuff. I loved the scene when they turned the tables on Littlefinger. I loved the look on LF's face when Bran talked about him holding the dagger to Ned Starks throat. As in "how in the fuck does he know that"? IT also goes back to Arya and Sansa ACTING and also probably using LF's "spies" to provide them with what LF told them.

Any idea why Bronn was in King's Landing, but never bothered to even mention his Sand Snake lover?

 

[Warrior Spirit]

This is where you and I disagree, I don't think Sansa and Arya had a plan from the get go, rather it came together much later in the season. I believe the tension was real. I think what LF was doing WAS working, until Sansa had an epiphany. I could be wrong, and I have heard many people share your opinion, but, it doesn't make sense for reasons I have already laid out.

It wouldn't make sense if it wasn't a long con. Bran got there before Arya. He seemed to know about LF from the beginning. Why would he chance Sansa being further betrayed by the man who betrayed both her parents? Why wouldn't he warn her about this guy who killed their aunt and Uncle and conspired against their father? He absolutely did. No doubt about that.


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[nc0gnet0]

Lol, I am not saying you have to be in complete agreement with each other in order to disagree with me. I am saying the fact you guys can't argue as to what actually happened is proof it was an incoherent story. Again you seem confused by the argument. This was a major death that ends LF's story and yet we can't even agree on what actually happened. That's not good writing.

We are still talking about it aren't we? Your going to watch next season, aren't you? Bad writing or brilliance or both? I am not confused at all by your argument, I have laid out a completely coherent line of reasoning of what happened, while you are just trying to punch holes in it. Because Spartan and myself don't agree on some of the finer points doesn't make you right.

The difference with your example is we saw on screen him getting more information from Sam that allowed him to go back and fill in the bits and pieces. There is no such scene that allows us to just assume he filled in the bits after the fact. Or did I miss a scene. Like you are using shit the show clearly shows to then imagine that something happened off screen. I am not interested in your fan fiction.

Back to this again. Obviously they didn't show him going back to fill in the pieces because it would have rendered the plot twist (LF on trial, not Arya) useless. And yes there is such a scene that shows how feasible that is, it is THE VERY SCENE YOU JUST MENTIONED! Sam had Bran go back a verify what the Maester had written.

1) And I already told you why have the scenes of Arya and Sansa. It creates drama for the audience. You are acting like these writers have never done anything solely for drama that didn't fit with the story. They have been doing so all season. 2) It's the same reason the ravens and dragons fly at warp speed. It's the same reason Dany magically appears just as all looks lost. It's the same reason Gendry runs like Usain Bolt. It's the same reason Bron can tackle a Jamie into deep water.

Wow, they are creating drama, they should be banned from ever writing again. But comparing 1 to 2 is not an apples to apples comparison. They have never given us fake scenes just for the purpose pf creating drama, are they guilty of deus ex machina moments? Most certainly they are. But never to the extent of what your saying happened with the Arya and Sansa scenes, which if I understand you correctly, were merely fake scenes to throw off the viewers?

The writers take liberties with the story to create drama for the audience. It doesn't have to make sense in story as you can't tell me you haven't yourself pointed out plot holes or things that don't make sense in the story.

Yes, I have pointed out plot holes, when plot holes exist. I don't try to create plot holes when I am unhappy with a turn the story took. That is the difference between you and I.

We simply disagree on whether this one qualifies because you are filling in the plot holes with your personal fan fiction that exists outside of the actual story told on the show. You are free to do so of course as we all are.

You don't seem to understand what a plot hole is. A plot hole is something that cannot be explained within the context of the show. If I can explain it, it's not a plot hole. Bad writing, maybe, plot hole, no.

However, everyone else is free to come up with their own fan fiction when the show leaves these gaps which is precisely why it's terrible writing.

Again your not defining fan fiction correctly either. Fan fiction would be making shit up you want to see come true, Like Bronn saving Tynne, or Jamie being secretly in love with Brienne, etc etc. Explaining how I interpreted what I just saw is not fan fiction. I did not suddenly give anyone abilities or feelings they did not have.

The fan fiction should be of storylines that haven't concluded as it's fun to speculate and then see what happens. However, when you close a storyline like they did here, there shouldn't be all these things that happened off screen for you, Sparan, Ares, and myself to try insert our own fan fiction into.

That's not good writing. The only time that stuff makes sense is when it's something like Inception where the open plot point adds to the overall experience. Us not sure of exactly what happened doesn't add to the story, it detracts from it.

I disagree, and so do the show ratings. Were still talking about it, ,that can't be a bad thing.

 

[The Hawk]

I will let Spartan answer for Spartan. I don't think we have to be in complete agreement with each other to disagree with you, so that's a stupid argument.

As for the bolded, we already have witnessed Bran doesn't know everything, just bits and pieces of a lot of things. That was made painfully obvious when he thought Jon was still a bastard, but a Sand, and not a Snow. So, no, I don't think he was keeping things from Arya and Sansa, I just don't think he knew everything yet. He did/does however have the ability to go back and replay the events, exactly like he did with Rhaegar and Lyanna. His focus to date has mainly been on the NK, and this explains why he has not spent more time researching some of the more subtle details of events and transgressions of secondary characters such as LF. Oddly enough, he deems the WW's a much more immediate threat.

I don't personally buy into the theory that throughout the course of the season, Sansa and Arya have been playing a con on LF. It doesn't make any sense. Why have the scenes with Arya and Sansa accusing and confronting each other then? Are they just doing that because they think LF is outside the door with his ear to it? No, that is not the case, the friction was real, and not until LF gave his "imagine the worst thing" speech did Sansa put things together, find out her proof (most likely through bran) and then setup a con with Arya.

I said before this episode that I thought that all of the time Arya was setting Little Finger up and basically acting. And what she was able to do is make LF think that he was setting her up while the reverse was true. OF course, those scenes between Sansa and Arya were staged for Littlefinger in order to finish setting the hook on him in order to reel him in later. It was all acting orchestrated by Arya learning from Jaquin's mentoring.

 

[Ares]

It wouldn't make sense if it wasn't a long con. Bran got there before Arya. He seemed to know about LF from the beginning. Why would he chance Sansa being further betrayed by the man who betrayed both her parents? Why wouldn't he warn her about this guy who killed their aunt and Uncle and conspired against their father? He absolutely did. No doubt about that.


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I coulda used a couple scenes with Bran giving Sansa/Arya info and proving his 3-eyed raven powers.

Also, side note... I hope Bran trolled Sansa off screen.... just constantly sneaking up all "I am the 3-eyed Raven"

They should do GoT blooper reels...

"I am the 3-eyed raven"

"I know Bran, you've said that, now eat your peas"

"3-eyed ravens can't eat peas"

"Why not?"

"Too many eyes"

"That doesn't make any sense Bran"

"Bran isn't here right now, can the 3-eyed raven take a message?"

"Yes, tell Bran to eat his peas"

"The 3-eyed raven refuses"

"Bran.... I mean 3-eyed raven, just eat your fucking peas"

"Fine... but the 3-eyed raven will continue to awkwardly bring up your rape"

"I thought you were the 3-eyed raven"

"I am"

 

[remydat]

Ok, but the subject of our dialogue is how them crossing the line past having his material to work off of has become and will be a major impact on the quality of the show and time it takes them to produce it.

I don't disagree they butchered alot of the book story, but wanted to be clear that we cannot use the Dorne plot in the show as proof they can easily write their own original material..... it was like 10-15 minutes of an episode.... Myrcella was in Dorne just as in the books and they made up this chunk of plot, perhaps inspired in some way by the source material in Winds of Winter.... they didn't have nothing and write that chunk of plot.

They have almost nothing right now and need to conjure original source material out of thin air.... that is a very hard task... I know first hand as I am writing my own.... if it were an easy task then everyone would do it and make boatloads of money selling their novel series to HBO.

The biggest issues you see in the show this season and next will root back to the fact you have TV writers trying to conjure up original source material to fill in the 90-95% gap that Martin has left them.

You will always have writers butchering some of a written work.... it doesn't all fit in a show or movie, it is what it is.... the show still works and for 6 seasons wasn't leaving you scratching your head wondering why things seemed so disjointed.... but once they lost the foundation of Martin's written work, you see what you get when these writers must conjure all the material from scratch... it is much worse than just mistakes or concessions trying to fit a book into a tv season.

Oh I was never disagreeing with that point. I was merely saying the issue runs deeper in that these guys simply aren't that creative. I wasn't using Dorne to prove they can easily write their own material. I was using Dorne to prove they suck whenever they stray from the books whether that straying is them taking an existing story and changing it or whether it's them having to write a new plot because it's not in the books.

So again, my point simply was their problems are deeper than just struggling with original material. Their problem is they aren't good writers. They are fine when they just follow the plot in the books but largely miss the mark anytime they stray from it. TV is littered with original material from writers. There are writers that could have done a better job with this material. The show was good off of the strength of the source material and off of the spectacle not because the writers are good IMO.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I can make blanket statements because the TV show already showed us stuff that is impossible in the books. Sansa never went to Ramsey in the books and there is really no way for that to happen in the books because it was someone else. Myrcella was murdered in the TV show during a time that has already passed in the books as she is murdered shortly after Oberyn is dead. Further in the books, Dorne supports Myrcella as Queen. In the books Ellaria Sand specifically speaks out against revenge fro Oberyn's death something she never does in the TV show.

So not sure what you take issue with. There are clearly things that happened in the show that can't happen in the TV show and those are the things I commented on. I don't have a problem with the books and TV show diverging. I simply am saying the TV show has diverged in ways that are Special person and stupid because some of it doesn't make sense within the story and clearly was done to add drama. Having Sansa raped by Ramsey didn't make sense. LF would never give her up. It was done to add drama to Sansa's story. Pretty sure you said so at one point in this thread.

And I am saying that MOST of the things you brought up are inconsequential to the show. I will grant you that of those things, the Sansa/Ramsey deviation was the most significant, to the extent of even GRRM warned off a butterfly effect. The rest will have no bearing on the story. In other words Myrcella will die, it's just a matter of when.

 

[The Hawk]

Any idea why Bronn was in King's Landing, but never bothered to even mention his Sand Snake lover?

Probably because he doesn't know she is there. But speaking of Bronn........ with Jamie fleeing KL, maybe Cersie gives him the commandership of her army and offers him the Sand Snake and a huge castle in return?

 

[The Hawk]

I think that next season will have a pretty strong story line about Cersei's future brat and also I think the Jon's boning of his queen will result in her getting pregnant also. Perhaps at the end, Cersei will die but the baby will get saved by her hand Qyburn? That could play out down the road for a sequel to the GoT story?

 

[Ares]

Oh I was never disagreeing with that point. I was merely saying the issue runs deeper in that these guys simply aren't that creative. I wasn't using Dorne to prove they can easily write their own material. I was using Dorne to prove they suck whenever they stray from the books whether that straying is them taking an existing story and changing it or whether it's them having to write a new plot because it's not in the books.

So again, my point simply was their problems are deeper than just struggling with original material. Their problem is they aren't good writers. They are fine when they just follow the plot in the books but largely miss the mark anytime they stray from it. TV is littered with original material from writers. There are writers that could have done a better job with this material. The show was good off of the strength of the source material and off of the spectacle not because the writers are good IMO.

Yeah I almost wish we had a different term... IMO they are not really writers.

They are best at adapting/condensing original source material into TV show format.

That skillset is great when you have the original source material, but now they're being ask to truly be writers and they are struggling greatly.

 

[Ares]

Probably because he doesn't know she is there. But speaking of Bronn........ with Jamie fleeing KL, maybe Cersie gives him the commandership of her army and offers him the Sand Snake and a huge castle in return?

You do realize 2 of the 3 Sand Snakes are definitely dead and 1 of them is 99% dead and Bronn has literally not mentioned them, having last seen them in season 5.

Also he is a lowborn sellsword and Cersei is Cersei.

But yeah I'm sure Cersei will offer up the dead teenage girl for Bronn, the sellsword, to fuck/marry, so he will commander her armies for her.

I can't honestly see it going any other way.

 

[Ares]

I think that next season will have a pretty strong story line about Cersei's future brat and also I think the Jon's boning of his queen will result in her getting pregnant also. Perhaps at the end, Cersei will die but the baby will get saved by her hand Qyburn? That could play out down the road for a sequel to the GoT story?

Game of Thrones will definitely have a sequel... guaranteed.

 

[nc0gnet0]

It wouldn't make sense if it wasn't a long con. Bran got there before Arya. He seemed to know about LF from the beginning. Why would he chance Sansa being further betrayed by the man who betrayed both her parents? Why wouldn't he warn her about this guy who killed their aunt and Uncle and conspired against their father? He absolutely did. No doubt about that.


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This is a lot more interesting discussion IMO. Actually, it was Sansa that warned Bran about LF. His response to Sansa was "It doesn't matter, I don't want it". Not, "Yes, I already know". Bran not knowing everything about the past, but having access to it, was clearly laid out for us in the Samwell/Bran scene. It's not a stretch to think Bran replayed Ned's betrayal, in which LF was a minor player, and not do a complete history search on him. After-all, you would think Jon's heritage would have been of at least equal importance. As to why he didn't, I can only say I think he is working on more pressing matters atm, the NK.

Again, if it was a long con, why did we have the scenes in which arya confronted Sansa about Rob's letter?
Why the scene where Sansa is secretly searching Arya's room and stumbles across the faces?

None of that makes sense unless you think Sansa and Arya staged those meetings under the assumption that LF was watching. I really think that is a stretch.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Probably because he doesn't know she is there. But speaking of Bronn........ with Jamie fleeing KL, maybe Cersie gives him the commandership of her army and offers him the Sand Snake and a huge castle in return?

It will never happen, ever.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I think that next season will have a pretty strong story line about Cersei's future brat and also I think the Jon's boning of his queen will result in her getting pregnant also. Perhaps at the end, Cersei will die but the baby will get saved by her hand Qyburn? That could play out down the road for a sequel to the GoT story?

nope

 

[nc0gnet0]

You do realize 2 of the 3 Sand Snakes are definitely dead and 1 of them is 99% dead and Bronn has literally not mentioned them, having last seen them in season 5.

Also he is a lowborn sellsword and Cersei is Cersei.

But yeah I'm sure Cersei will offer up the dead teenage girl for Bronn, the sellsword, to fuck/marry, so he will commander her armies for her.

I can't honestly see it going any other way.

On an interesting side note. Jerome Flynn and Lana Headley used to be lovers and can't stand each other, to the extent that Flynn has it written in his contract he never has to appear on screen with Lena at the same time.

 

[The Hawk]

It will never happen, ever.

And why is that? Throughout the seasons of GoT, Bronn has talked about how much of an opportunist that he is. In the last one, he talked about how nice it was to be called "LORD". I say that Cersei will offer him the leadership of her army. It clearly makes sense from a lot of angles. Bronn is clearly still a glorified sell sword who doesn't care about being loyal to one side or the other. He'll flip sides in a wink of the eye if there is a gold stash involved.

 

[Ares]

And why is that? Throughout the seasons of GoT, Bronn has talked about how much of an opportunist that he is. In the last one, he talked about how nice it was to be called "LORD". I say that Cersei will offer him the leadership of her army. It clearly makes sense from a lot of angles. Bronn is clearly still a glorified sell sword who doesn't care about being loyal to one side or the other. He'll flip sides in a wink of the eye if there is a gold stash involved.

I thought it was a commandership?

EDIT:

Probably because he doesn't know she is there. But speaking of Bronn........ with Jamie fleeing KL, maybe Cersie gives him the commandership of her army and offers him the Sand Snake and a huge castle in return?

Yep, definitely a commandership.