Game of Thrones Thread

[The Hawk]

I thought it was a commandership?

???????

 

[remydat]

We are still talking about it aren't we? Your going to watch next season, aren't you? Bad writing or brilliance or both? I am not confused at all by your argument, I have laid out a completely coherent line of reasoning of what happening, while you are just trying to punch holes in it. Because Spartan and myself don't agree on some of the finer points doesn't make you right.

Back to this again. Obviously they didn't show him going back to fill in the pieces because it would have rendered the plot twist (LF on trial, not Arya) useless. And yes there is such a scene that shows how feasible that is, it is THE VERY SCENE YOU JUST MENTIONED! Sam had Bran go back a verify what the Maester had written.

Wow, they are creating drama, they should be banned from ever writing again. But comparing 1 to 2 is not an apples to apples comparison. They have never given us fake scenes just for the purpose pf creating drama, are they guilty of deus ex machina moments? Most certainly they are. But never to the extent of what your saying happened with the Arya and Sansa scenes, which if I understand you correctly, were merely fake scenes to throw off the viewers?

Yes, I have pointed out plot holes, when plot holes exist. I don't try to create plot holes when I am unhappy with a turn the story took. That is the difference between you and I.

You don't seem to understand what a plot hole is. A plot hole is something that cannot be explained within the context of the show. If I can explain it, it's not a plot hole. Bad writing, maybe, plot hole, no.

Again your not defining fan fiction correctly either. Fan fiction would be making shit up you want to see come true, Like Bronn saving Tynne, or Jamie being secretly in love with Brienne, etc etc. Explaining how I interpreted what I just saw is not fan fiction. I did not suddenly give anyone abilities or feelings they did not have.

I disagree, and so do the show ratings. Were still talking about it, ,that can't be a bad thing.

I watch the show because the source material is that good and the early seasons were pretty consistent with the books. I stopped watching the show years ago hence why I only just recently started posting in this thread as my first post in this thread noted that I had only just now returned to watching the show. And the only reason I returned is because Martin is taking so long to finish the books otherwise I would be content with just reading the books. So I watch the show despite the plot holes and bad writing not because those things don't actually exist. So your argument is odd. There are plenty of things that are popular but not good from a critical review perspective. So the fact the show is popular doesn't disprove it is rife with plot holes or bad writing.

Creating drama is good. Creating drama that doesn't fit within the story is not good.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

1. Bran has no good reason not to tell Sansa and Arya about LF in the garden. You are making up something not shown in the show that they had some conversation similar to Sam's where Bran then figured things out after the fact. However, the only reason you are proposing that is to support your theory as to the tension being real. So you are starting with a conclusion ie the tension being real and then trying to imagine events not shown on the show to fit that conclusion.

2. LF has no good reason to ignore what Bran said about Chaos being a ladder. LF knows there is no normal way Bran could have heard his conversation and LF is an information broker. The idea that LF would simply ignore and never try to find out how Bran came to have information he has no business having goes against everything the character has stood for up to this point. It's a plot hole because it is inconsistent with his previous characterization where Bran saying something like that would naturally lead to him investigating as if Bran somehow is privy to information that LF said in private, he is the single greatest threat to LF ever on the show. And we know this is true because Bran is the one that reveals the truth about LF. So I am sorry there is no logical explanation for LF hearing what Bran said and simply ignoring it.

3. LF has no good reason to confess. It is not in his character shown thus far to give up this easily and no hard evidence has been presented to him. Further as with 2 above, the dude was already given a hint that Bran knows shit he shouldn't know so how this dude could not have foreseen Bran telling his sisters is beyond me. Just about the entire audience knew Bran was likely to tell his sisters so how could LF not see it. It would be one thing if he was never presented evidence that Bran knew things he shouldn't know but we know from 2 above that LF most certainly was given evidence of Bran's powers from Bran himself.

So the massive plot hole here is that there is no reason for Bran to withhold this information from his sisters. And there is no logical reason for LF not to be put on guard when Bran tells him something that only LF and Varys should know. The fact that the character who has been behind much of the conflict on the show and who has gone on and on about having plans within plans and all this other shit could overlook what Bran told him is incredibly inconsistent with his characterization to date. The reason LF never follows up on this is simple. The writers need him to not do so because if he had then he would never have been conned and he would never have steppedfoot in that room without any allies. In short, the writers needed him to be dumber than he has ever been in order to make this work. And quite frankly it doesn't work for me because I don't recognize this idiot LF.

 

[Ares]

On an interesting side note. Jerome Flynn and Lana Headley used to be lovers and can't stand each other, to the extent that Flynn has it written in his contract he never has to appear on screen with Lena at the same time.

Yeah but he about to get commandership of her army and she gonna give him a dead 15 year old girl to ****, so I mean....

 

[Ares]

???????

Probably because he doesn't know she is there. But speaking of Bronn........ with Jamie fleeing KL, maybe Cersie gives him the commandership of her army and offers him the Sand Snake and a huge castle in return?

See above ^^^^

Definitely a commandership

 

[remydat]

And I am saying that MOST of the things you brought up are inconsequential to the show. I will grant you that of those things, the Sansa/Ramsey deviation was the most significant, to the extent of even GRRM warned off a butterfly effect. The rest will have no bearing on the story. In other words Myrcella will die, it's just a matter of when.

So you tell me not to make blanket statements and then you make a blanket statement. Sorry, a story includes the journey not just the final destination. Just because Martin said the major 5 characters will be the same in the books and show doesn't render the journey to get us there as having no bearing on the story.

We don't know if Myrcella will die and even if we did, the manner of her death is important. To suggest otherwise is absurd since her being killed by Ellaria in the show is precisely the reason Euron is able to ally with Cersei because in he is able to deliver the people responsible for her death. His alliance with Cersei is also the reason Cersei can try and backstab Dany because Euron is off to retrieve the Golden Company which is critical to Cersei's master plan.

So sorry you argument here makes no sense. You talk of Martin's butterfly effect then when it suits your narrative ignores the butterfly effect of certain character's deaths. The details matter. If they didn't then no one would bother reading or watching. They would just skip to the end.

 

[remydat]

Yeah I almost wish we had a different term... IMO they are not really writers.

They are best at adapting/condensing original source material into TV show format.

That skillset is great when you have the original source material, but now they're being ask to truly be writers and they are struggling greatly.

That is fair and I agree with what you said. It's pretty stark how easily their narrative falls apart when they go off script whether it be altering the source material significantly or when they don't have source material to work with.

 

[ShiftyDevil]

I think this was probably the worst season of GoT. It felt crazy rushed, everything with the Stark sisters was horribly paced and plotted. The only redeeming feature was Sansa showing actual leadership and a bit of continued growth from the child with dreams of being a princess in season one to an actual Lady of her house that showed the ability to actually lead her bannermen through the Winter. Granted, we got all of 5 minutes of her showing leadership ability back dropped with the horrible Littlefinger/Arya betrayal plot. Which holy shit was that unnecessary. At no point did any of that plotline matter in the final outcome of Littlefinger getting got.

I think they tried to force in the Stark sisters manipulating the master manipulator, but they way they went about it was utterly braindead and pointless. None of the actions Sansa or Arya took matter in any way. Basically Bran can see the past and they got all the 'evidence' they needed from him. But most importantly, and the show left this completely unsaid, was that the lords of the Vale hated Baelish and knew he was up to shit, so they had no real interest in defending his claims of innocence. If the showrunners had a fucking clue, they would have shown Sansa/Arya going behind LF's back, working with Lord Royce from the Vale and plotting LF's demise that way. But nope, we got this stupid fake tension of will Arya kill Sansa?!?!?!

And christ, they way they've handled Arya's storyline has been a complete clusterfuck since she went to the Faceless Men. This is one of the spots where the book handled it way, way, way better. The show has honestly done a great job of taking material from the book and translating it really, really well to the screen. And then Arya went to the Faceless Men, and Dorne happened, and jesus christ it went way off the rails.

That and now Westeros apparently has bullet trains or some shit, because everyone can be everywhere at any time.

But at least everything that went down in King's Landing this last episode was good. Really any time Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion can be on screen together brings out the best in the show. I was kind of hoping we'd get an impromptu Clegane Bowl, but oh well, next season I guess. Really, the only dumb thing that happened in King's Landing off the top of my head was the stupid Wight charging at Cersei and no one doing a damn thing, and of course the chain was juuuuuuust long enough. But yeah, bad season, good last episode.

Littlefinger got fucked though. I think we all knew he was probably gonna bite the dust at some point before the show ended but christ, the writing leading up to his end was awful and totally unfair to such a great character. The show will be worse for not having Littlefinger around.

 

[ijustposthere]

It wouldn't make sense if it wasn't a long con. Bran got there before Arya. He seemed to know about LF from the beginning. Why would he chance Sansa being further betrayed by the man who betrayed both her parents? Why wouldn't he warn her about this guy who killed their aunt and Uncle and conspired against their father? He absolutely did. No doubt about that.


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Bran very likely went back into the visions to get a clearer picture. He was definitely on to him the second he touched the dagger, and he makes it clear by repeating a line from a LF & Varys conversation in Season 3. That's why LF was so freaked out. But the initial tension between Sansa and Arya was real. It makes absolutely no sense if it was fake. There's no reason to put on a show for themselves where Sansa discovers Arya was part of the "Faceless Men."

EDIT: I only know about that season 3 bit because I couldn't figure out what the **** Bran said that spooked LF so badly, and my CC wouldn't work. So I looked up his dialogue and the website gave a refresher course.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I watch the show because the source material is that good and the early seasons were pretty consistent with the books. I stopped watching the show years ago hence why I only just recently started posting in this thread as my first post in this thread noted that I had only just now returned to watching the show. And the only reason I returned is because Martin is taking so long to finish the books otherwise I would be content with just reading the books. So I watch the show despite the plot holes and bad writing not because those things don't actually exist. So your argument is odd. There are plenty of things that are popular but not good from a critical review perspective. So the fact the show is popular doesn't disprove it is rife with plot holes or bad writing.

Creating drama is good. Creating drama that doesn't fit within the story is not good.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

How convenient.

1. Bran has no good reason not to tell Sansa and Arya about LF in the garden. You are making up something not shown in the show that they had some conversation similar to Sam's where Bran then figured things out after the fact. However, the only reason you are proposing that is to support your theory as to the tension being real. So you are starting with a conclusion ie the tension being real and then trying to imagine events not shown on the show to fit that conclusion.

Horseshit. You have drawn a conclusion that Bran already knew everything about LF's transgressions, a theory not supported by, and in fact made abundantly clear that he didn't know everything. Don't accuse me of something you yourself are doing. The fact he knew somethings does not equal he knew everything, pot kettle.

2. LF has no good reason to ignore what Bran said about Chaos being a ladder. LF knows there is no normal way Bran could have heard his conversation and LF is an information broker. The idea that LF would simply ignore and never try to find out how Bran came to have information he has no business having goes against everything the character has stood for up to this point. It's a plot hole because it is inconsistent with his previous characterization where Bran saying something like that would naturally lead to him investigating as if Bran somehow is privy to information that LF said in private, he is the single greatest threat to LF ever on the show. And we know this is true because Bran is the one that reveals the truth about LF. So I am sorry there is no logical explanation for LF hearing what Bran said and simply ignoring it.

The fact is "chaos is a ladder" is the ONLY thing Bran said. Your making an assumption from that one small snippet, LF should have gleaned that Bran knew everything about him. Quite a stretch by anyones imagination. LF dismissed it as coincidence, albeit an odd one.

3. LF has no good reason to confess. It is not in his character shown thus far to give up this easily and no hard evidence has been presented to him. Further as with 2 above, the dude was already given a hint that Bran knows shit he shouldn't know so how this dude could not have foreseen Bran telling his sisters is beyond me. Just about the entire audience knew Bran was likely to tell his sisters so how could LF not see it. It would be one thing if he was never presented evidence that Bran knew things he shouldn't know but we know from 2 above that LF most certainly was given evidence of Bran's powers from Bran himself.

Been over this too many times to rehash it again, so drop it. Denying the allegations would have done nothing for LF.

So the massive plot hole here is that there is no reason for Bran to withhold this information from his sisters. And there is no logical reason for LF not to be put on guard when Bran tells him something that only LF and Varys should know. The fact that the character who has been behind much of the conflict on the show and who has gone on and on about having plans within plans and all this other shit could overlook what Bran told him is incredibly inconsistent with his characterization to date. The reason LF never follows up on this is simple. The writers need him to not do so because if he had then he would never have been conned and he would never have step foot in that room without any allies.

No withholding of information, ergo, no plothole. End of discussion.

 

[Ares]

Bran very likely went back into the visions to get a clearer picture. He was definitely on to him the second he touched the dagger, and he makes it clear by repeating a line from a LF & Varys conversation in Season 3. That's why LF was so freaked out. But the initial tension between Sansa and Arya was real. It makes absolutely no sense if it was fake. There's no reason to put on a show for themselves where Sansa discovers Arya was part of the "Faceless Men."

Gotta give Sansa credit for remaining level-headed....

Lol her half-brother is fighting a war against a horde of undead humans and animals... her sister is a faceless man(woman?) who carries around dead people's faces in her bag... and her little brother is "the 3-eyed raven" and can now have visions of anything happening in the past or present.

That is alot of freaky shit considering they were all normal last time she saw them.

Side note.... Bran is still a Warg... I feel like I forgot that.... I hope he wargs into one of Dany's dragons at some point.

 

[nc0gnet0]

So you tell me not to make blanket statements and then you make a blanket statement. Sorry, a story includes the journey not just the final destination. Just because Martin said the major 5 characters will be the same in the books and show doesn't render the journey to get us there as having no bearing on the story.

We don't know if Myrcella will die and even if we did, the manner of her death is important. To suggest otherwise is absurd since her being killed by Ellaria in the show is precisely the reason Euron is able to ally with Cersei because in he is able to deliver the people responsible for her death. His alliance with Cersei is also the reason Cersei can try and backstab Dany because Euron is off to retrieve the Golden Company which is critical to Cersei's master plan.

So sorry you argument here makes no sense. You talk of Martin's butterfly effect then when it suits your narrative ignores the butterfly effect of certain character's deaths. The details matter. If they didn't then no one would bother reading or watching. They would just skip to the end.

I paraphrased what GRRM has said himself, in more than one interview, if you have issue with it, take it up with him.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Bran very likely went back into the visions to get a clearer picture. He was definitely on to him the second he touched the dagger, and he makes it clear by repeating a line from a LF & Varys conversation in Season 3. That's why LF was so freaked out. But the initial tension between Sansa and Arya was real. It makes absolutely no sense if it was fake. There's no reason to put on a show for themselves where Sansa discovers Arya was part of the "Faceless Men."

EDIT: I only know about that season 3 bit because I couldn't figure out what the **** Bran said that spooked LF so badly, and my CC wouldn't work. So I looked up his dialogue and the website gave a refresher course.

exactly what I have been trying to say all along.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I think this was probably the worst season of GoT. It felt crazy rushed, everything with the Stark sisters was horribly paced and plotted. The only redeeming feature was Sansa showing actual leadership and a bit of continued growth from the child with dreams of being a princess in season one to an actual Lady of her house that showed the ability to actually lead her bannermen through the Winter. Granted, we got all of 5 minutes of her showing leadership ability back dropped with the horrible Littlefinger/Arya betrayal plot. Which holy shit was that unnecessary. At no point did any of that plotline matter in the final outcome of Littlefinger getting got.

I think they tried to force in the Stark sisters manipulating the master manipulator, but they way they went about it was utterly braindead and pointless. None of the actions Sansa or Arya took matter in any way. Basically Bran can see the past and they got all the 'evidence' they needed from him. But most importantly, and the show left this completely unsaid, was that the lords of the Vale hated Baelish and knew he was up to shit, so they had no real interest in defending his claims of innocence. If the showrunners had a fucking clue, they would have shown Sansa/Arya going behind LF's back, working with Lord Royce from the Vale and plotting LF's demise that way. But nope, we got this stupid fake tension of will Arya kill Sansa?!?!?!

And christ, they way they've handled Arya's storyline has been a complete clusterfuck since she went to the Faceless Men. This is one of the spots where the book handled it way, way, way better. The show has honestly done a great job of taking material from the book and translating it really, really well to the screen. And then Arya went to the Faceless Men, and Dorne happened, and jesus christ it went way off the rails.

That and now Westeros apparently has bullet trains or some shit, because everyone can be everywhere at any time.

But at least everything that went down in King's Landing this last episode was good. Really any time Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion can be on screen together brings out the best in the show. I was kind of hoping we'd get an impromptu Clegane Bowl, but oh well, next season I guess. Really, the only dumb thing that happened in King's Landing off the top of my head was the stupid Wight charging at Cersei and no one doing a damn thing, and of course the chain was juuuuuuust long enough. But yeah, bad season, good last episode.

Littlefinger got fucked though. I think we all knew he was probably gonna bite the dust at some point before the show ended but christ, the writing leading up to his end was awful and totally unfair to such a great character. The show will be worse for not having Littlefinger around.

I actually agree with most of this, the season was still entertaining, and this last episode was the most well written episode of the season. The entertainment quality of episodes 4 and 6 was still top notch (special effects, battle sequence, etc) , but the writing was forced.

 

[Ares]

Just think of all the shit you imagine needs to be finished up and/or resolved in this show.... and now remember they are going to do it in 6 episodes lol

 

[remydat]

I paraphrased what GRRM has said himself, in more than one interview, if you have issue with it, take it up with him.

No Martin never said Mycella is going to die or that her death doesn't mean anything. All he said is the 5 major characters will be the same at the end. You then are making the Scott Bakula quantum leap that his saying that means Myrcella doesn't matter despite him also talking about the butterfly effect. So stop trying to pretend Martin said what you claimed. He categorically did not.

 

[Bears_804]

Would be cool if they were all 2 hours long.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I hope Bran freezes to death.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I disagree 100%, their main problem is needing to write original source material at this point.

Any change they made was based off existing plot and/or perhaps plot Martin had in Winds of Winter manuscript which they would have read.

Sansa going to Ramsay followed an existing book plot where her friend Jeyne Poole did the same thing posing as Arya Stark.... they took that plot concept and just merged Sansa into it, they didn't have to conjure it up.

Having 99% of the plot there and just manipulating it or ripping a chunk out and placing your chunk in is a totally different task than being presented with 10% of the plot via vague outlines and being asked to fill in the 90% that is missing.

If I gave you a car that was missing a component you might be able to replace that component, right?

If I gave you a drawing of a car and a list of attributes/requirements it should have and you needed to fabricate all the parts, the body, and then assemble it all into a working car.... that is a helluva different task.

Anything the writers have done before this season has been simply manipulating and existing story that is either 100% complete or like 95% complete for Winds of Winter.... if they were not sure how a conversation should go, they just read the written work and figured it out from there.... if they wanted to replace a chunk of story they could determine how things needed to be before and after based on the written story they had as their base.... now they have virtually nothing to work off of but his notes and outlines for the final book.

If this was no big deal for the writers, then why do they need 2 years to write/produce 6 episodes to conclude the series?

Yea, there's so much to cover that D&D have to trim some of the fat off the story unfortunately, no doubt they've made some missteps. There are a few things from the book that are noticably missing(Lady Stoneheart, "Aegon Targaryen"(son of Eli and Rhaegar) possibly being a live). I think some of that means that these storylines, while interesting are not super consequential and can be written around. I also think it's interesting that Jon's real name is Aegon, since as I mentioned in the last sentence, I am pretty sure that's the name of Elia and Rhaegar's son in the books. I have a feeling this is D&D kind of pulling out a bit of that Aegon storyline from the books. Or maybe Jon Snow's name is Aegon Targaryen in the books too.

I do wish that this season was longer, same for next season. Lack of source material doesn't really excuse having to rush the story IMO.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I think that next season will have a pretty strong story line about Cersei's future brat and also I think the Jon's boning of his queen will result in her getting pregnant also. Perhaps at the end, Cersei will die but the baby will get saved by her hand Qyburn? That could play out down the road for a sequel to the GoT story?

 

[remydat]

How convenient.



Horseshit. You have drawn a conclusion that Bran already knew everything about LF's transgressions, a theory not supported by, and in fact made abundantly clear that he didn't know everything. Don't accuse me of something you yourself are doing. The fact he knew somethings does not equal he knew everything, pot kettle.



The fact is "chaos is a ladder" is the ONLY thing Bran said. Your making an assumption from that one small snippet, LF should have gleaned that Bran knew everything about him. Quite a stretch by anyones imagination. LF dismissed it as coincidence, albeit an odd one.




Been over this too many times to rehash it again, so drop it. Denying the allegations would have done nothing for LF.



No withholding of information, ergo, no plothole. End of discussion.

There is nothing in the story that says Bran didn't know the truth about LF. You are taking something that happened between him and Sam and applying it to him and LF which is just odd. It is especially odd because Bran telling LF that Chaos is a Ladder is a clear indication he knew LF was sinister because that quote is from his conversation with Varys and if Bran knew that line then there is no reason for LF to not think Bran knew more of the conversation.

[video=youtube;PxlIraEV8n4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxlIraEV8n4[/video]

It makes no sense for LF to hear Bran say the quote from the above conversation but then do nothing about it as the above conversation would be enough for any number of characters (Lannisters and Starks) to murder him. So at this point in the scene there is no reason for LF to not view Bran as a grave threat because he has knowledge of a conversation that many would consider worthy of LF being executed. The idea that a character like LF would just dismiss this as coincidence is Special person. Coincidences get people killed in this world. LF should know that more than most.

LF has no idea what the Vale lord was told because neither do we. Denying it and pointing out there was no evidence could have swayed him. And even if it didn't, LF should at least try. It's absurd to think someone desperate to save their lives would not do or say anything simply because you claim it wouldn't have worked. I don't think people gamble their lives based on what you think.

Finally the massive plot hole is that there is no good reason to assume Bran didn't know the truth about LF simply because of a scene several episodes later that had nothing to do with this scene. And the further plot hole is there is no reason for LF to ignore what Bran said when he doesn't know the extent of what Bran knows. The correct course of action is for him to try and find out what Bran knows not ignore. We know that is the correct course of action because LF claims he always thinks about the worst. So what's the worst interpretation of Bran's comments? The worst interpretation of Bran's comments is that he knows private conversations that LF had that could incriminate him.

So again this is a plot hole. The narrative sets up that LF is always planning and thinking about the worst yet you want me to believe he just ignores what Bran says and considers it coincidence. Sorry that is Special person and goes against what the story established as LF's personality. You just want to ignore it because it suits your narrative. Give me a single logical explanation that LF not thinking the worse fits with his character as he himself described on the show? Like is this how you imagine things in your head?

"Hey LF, Bran just revealed a line from a conversation that suggests he's a grave risk to your plots. Should we figure out what he knows or plot to eliminate him?"

"Nah, I got a better idea, let's just ignore Bran and try and get Arya and Sansa fighting with other other because Arya gave me a cold stare. A cold stare is far more dangerous than a dude knowing I am a sinister snake using his family as pawns to climb the ladder of chaos."

"Oh yeah that makes a lot more sense."