Game of Thrones Thread

[remydat]

Bran is the ace in the hole but not all that you say in this case. Sansa witnessed the murder of Lysa herself. And before Bran returned Sansa was already wise to what LF truly was and already suspicious of him when he first started trying to drive a wedge between the sisters. The con was run to catch LF completely off guard and basically get him to confess his crimes which he pretty much did immediately admitting to killing Lysa. Even when he later said, "I deny it! None of you were there to see what happened. None of you knows the truth" it was obvious he was lying and desperate as hell. Yeah, they knew most of what he did from Bran's visions but they broke LF with their own con game. That's why he ended up on his knees begging for mercy.

It's not unusual for viewers to not like the way certain characters go out but there was a bigger story being told. This was vengeance for GOT's favorite family that viewers have waited many years to see. They had been split up for many years, many of them dying and all of them suffering horrible fates and much of it due to this LF character who has no redeeming values and deserved to die. This was about the Starks coming together again, each one stronger from their own experiences but still stronger together.

All of the above is your rationalization and was not in the story. In fact, the above and Ncog's argument just prove how shitty the story was. You are saying the con was to put LF off guard. Ncog was saying the tension was real and Sansa didn't figure things out until the end. The fact you two aren't even on the same page as you try to defend this piss poor writing tells me all I need to know about the writing. If Bran told them from the start then there was no need for this plan. LF was in WF and could be dragged out of his bed at any time. They didn't need a confession because according to Ares, it was a fake trial anyway.

All of this confusion could have been resolved if the writers had spent less time writing to the audience and more time writing a coherent episode. Like right now there are 3 theories thrown out by you guys and they all contradict in some way which again proves the story wasn't coherent.

1. The whole thing was a con to put LF off guard per Spartan.
2. But per Ares, this was a fake trial meaning there was no need to catch him off guard because he had no allies to help him and so would be dead no matter what.
3. But per Ncog, the tension was real and it wasn't until the end that they figured things out. Of course, why Bran wouldn't have just told them when they were all in the garden together with the dagger used to try and kill him is left unexplained.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Now we will wait like 2 years for the final season which is only 6 episodes.

I hope everyone realizes the problem is that they have crossed a line from having RR Martin's written works edited to then just having w/e manuscript for Winds of Winter which was enough for them to get by, but now they have crossed into vague plot point/cliff note territory.

Imagine if JK Rowling had written the 6 Harry Potter books and then the movie screenwriters had to write the 7th movie based off her vaguely describing how things finish up....

TV and Movie writers do a great job (mostly) of taking well written and edited novels and then condensing them down to what will fit into a movie or tv season.... what they don't do well is write brand new original material and that is what they are being tasked with for these last 2 seasons of GoT.... that is why the writing seems so much worse than in the past.... in the past they weren't writing the entire story based off vague plot points, they just had to condense RR Martin's story into episodes.... now they are responsible for everything.... every plot component, every character, every piece of dialogue, everything.

It is like if you were responsible for filling pot holes in your town's roads and suddenly they tell you that you are now responsible for your entire State's Dept of Transportation lol....

Exactly, and it was GRRM that is to blame for all this, as the original agreement was to have him finishing the books before we even got to this point. It's easy to dump on the writers, and on occasion I have, but the bulk of the blame rests solely at Martin's feet.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Where did I say I was offering proof? It's my opinion. I simply provided evidence that my opinion was shared by others. Sansa didn't figure things out. Bran told them, lol. Again the story would have been much better if Bran wasn't involved. LF could have been condemned without him. Instead the writers decided to include him so we are left to assume he used his magic foresight powers to tell them so giving Sansa credit is a bit laughable.

Proof that others share your opinion. And your wrong in the fact Sansa didn't figure things out. I am sure bran was involved, much in the way the Sam/Bran scene unfolded, with Sansa knowing the basics, and Bran going back and then filling in the details. I'm not sure I agree if the story would have been better if bran was or not involved, thats a matter of personal preference. Possibly it could be, if given more time, but, the show demonstrating Brans powers is more of a long game play.

You claim the proof was in the original draft. You claim the proof was on the cutting room floor so obviously someone recognized that proof was necessary or they wouldn't have included it in the first place. And no they didn't have to show us the girls gathering proof. They simply had to produce the proof at the fake trial.

Again, they did not have to produce the proof at the trial, he confessed. What part of that is it you failed to grasp? What I am saying is knowing what was left on the cutting room floor gives you clues in what to look for that gives credibility to what actually happened.

Duh! It's like you don't understand the argument being made. The argument is that his confession was dumb because he hadn't seen any actual evidence. So there was no reason for him to confess.

Der duh, he didn't ask for the proof because he knew they could produce it. So what was the point? He made a calculated assessment, and rather than lie and demand the proof be presented, proof he knew they could produce, he opted instead to plead for forgiveness. All demanding proof and denying the allegations against him was going to do is polarize sentiment against him even further.

So in response to that argument, it's pretty dumb to say well no evidence was necessary because he confessed because that's a circular argument. The dude behaved like a petty criminal who spills the beans the minute he is questioned. The in character response for someone like LF that has been accused with zero hard evidence produced is to deny things until such time that said evidence was produced. Only after seeing that evidence do you resort to begging for mercy.

Finally, his being overconfident and careless is precisely not how LF behaves. My argument is the character has been written like an idiot ever since he convinced Sansa to go to Ramsey. This final scene is simply the final evidence of that.

Lf has always been willing to take risks to further his cause.

Do you agree or disagree with that argument and if so what is your counter argument? Like I am not sure how you expect to convince me of something by pointing to the very things LF did that I find idiotic for his character and then using them to support your argument.

If I am understanding the question correctly, do I think LF was acting out of character? Your asking me based on how he was portrayed in the first 4 seasons, correct?

First of all, is there any character on GOT that hasn't evolved? Or in this instance possibly regressed? So I am not sure quite how to answer that. Do I think he got sloppy? Yes, perhaps. I am not sure that equates to out of character though, rather overconfidence and underestimating the Stark siblings. I am not sure his one instance with Bran in which Bran said "chaos is a ladder" was enough by itself for LF to understand Bran's abilities. Rather he blew it off as odd, and a coincidence while he continued to focus on what he perceived was the real threat, Arya

 

[Ares]

Exactly, and it was GRRM that is to blame for all this, as the original agreement was to have him finishing the books before we even got to this point. It's easy to dump on the writers, and on occasion I have, but the bulk of the blame rests solely at Martin's feet.

I blame Martin as well.

However I will not hesitate to call the writers on shitty/obvious holes they could easily have edited themselves.

I do sympathize with them on a monumental task of needing to finish writing this original source material themselves.... not edit or condense a manuscript.... they need to finish writing RR Martin's story for him.... they have to conjure up everything.... that is not an easy task for a writer who has the story in their head to begin with, much less a writer being asked to come in 90% thru a story and finish it.

Which is why I fully understand if they need 2 years to finish writing the remaining story.

 

[nc0gnet0]

All of the above is your rationalization and was not in the story. In fact, the above and Ncog's argument just prove how shitty the story was. You are saying the con was to put LF off guard. Ncog was saying the tension was real and Sansa didn't figure things out until the end. The fact you two aren't even on the same page as you try to defend this piss poor writing tells me all I need to know about the writing. If Bran told them from the start then there was no need for this plan. LF was in WF and could be dragged out of his bed at any time. They didn't need a confession because according to Ares, it was a fake trial anyway.

All of this confusion could have been resolved if the writers had spent less time writing to the audience and more time writing a coherent episode. Like right now there are 3 theories thrown out by you guys and they all contradict in some way which again proves the story wasn't coherent.

1. The whole thing was a con to put LF off guard per Spartan.
2. But per Ares, this was a fake trial meaning there was no need to catch him off guard because he had no allies to help him and so would be dead no matter what.
3. But per Ncog, the tension was real and it wasn't until the end that they figured things out. Of course, why Bran wouldn't have just told them when they were all in the garden together with the dagger used to try and kill him is left unexplained.

The trial was still a con, to get LF there. While I can't speak for Spartan, the whole thing need not be a con, for a con to still be in place. The question is, at what point did the tables turn on LF? It's a good separate discussion. The simple fact is, 2 and 3 can both be true, and I don't think Spartan ever claimed the whole thing was a con, only the trial.

 

[remydat]

Now we will wait like 2 years for the final season which is only 6 episodes.

I hope everyone realizes the problem is that they have crossed a line from having RR Martin's written works edited to then just having w/e manuscript for Winds of Winter which was enough for them to get by, but now they have crossed into vague plot point/cliff note territory.

Imagine if JK Rowling had written the 6 Harry Potter books and then the movie screenwriters had to write the 7th movie based off her vaguely describing how things finish up....

TV and Movie writers do a great job (mostly) of taking well written and edited novels and then condensing them down to what will fit into a movie or tv season.... what they don't do well is write brand new original material and that is what they are being tasked with for these last 2 seasons of GoT.... that is why the writing seems so much worse than in the past.... in the past they weren't writing the entire story based off vague plot points, they just had to condense RR Martin's story into episodes.... now they are responsible for everything.... every plot component, every character, every piece of dialogue, everything.

It is like if you were responsible for filling pot holes in your town's roads and suddenly they tell you that you are now responsible for your entire State's Dept of Transportation lol....

The problem isn't limited to them just having a vague outline because they clearly changed things that were already in the book in pretty significant ways. The Dorne subplot, Myrcella being murdered, Tommen committing suicide, Sansa going to Ramsey, etc. In most of these decisions, I would say they sacrificed a coherent plot for more drama.

So I don't think the issue is a vague outline as plenty of stories don't have enough source material to create an entire series and thus has to come up with their own ideas. The problem is these writers simply have a tendency to forego plot and logic for things they think will excite the audience.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I blame Martin as well.

However I will not hesitate to call the writers on shitty/obvious holes they could easily have edited themselves.

I do sympathize with them on a monumental task of needing to finish writing this original source material themselves.... not edit or condense a manuscript.... they need to finish writing RR Martin's story for him.... they have to conjure up everything.... that is not an easy task for a writer who has the story in their head to begin with, much less a writer being asked to come in 90% thru a story and finish it.

Which is why I fully understand if they need 2 years to finish writing the remaining story.

As much as I enjoyed episode 6, that was the episode that deserved the most criticism, not this one. This one could easily be explained away, as I have done. Could it had been better if it were spread over 2-3 episodes? Of course it could have, that has never really been my argument.

 

[nc0gnet0]

The problem isn't limited to them just having a vague outline because they clearly changed things that were already in the book in pretty significant ways. The Dorne subplot, Myrcella being murdered, Tommen committing suicide, Sansa going to Ramsey, etc. In most of these decisions, I would say they sacrificed a coherent plot for more drama.

So I don't think the issue is a vague outline as plenty of stories don't have enough source material to create an entire series and thus has to come up with their own ideas. The problem is these writers simply have a tendency to forego plot and logic for things they think will excite the audience.

Now your just pulling shit out of your butt. Of course they changed things from the books, they had too. They had to condense and edit insignificant characters, there is no way they could have done a show without it. GRMM has said as much, many, many times.

 

[Ares]

The problem isn't limited to them just having a vague outline because they clearly changed things that were already in the book in pretty significant ways. The Dorne subplot, Myrcella being murdered, Tommen committing suicide, Sansa going to Ramsey, etc. In most of these decisions, I would say they sacrificed a coherent plot for more drama.

So I don't think the issue is a vague outline as plenty of stories don't have enough source material to create an entire series and thus has to come up with their own ideas. The problem is these writers simply have a tendency to forego plot and logic for things they think will excite the audience.

I disagree 100%, their main problem is needing to write original source material at this point.

Any change they made was based off existing plot and/or perhaps plot Martin had in Winds of Winter manuscript which they would have read.

Sansa going to Ramsay followed an existing book plot where her friend Jeyne Poole did the same thing posing as Arya Stark.... they took that plot concept and just merged Sansa into it, they didn't have to conjure it up.

Having 99% of the plot there and just manipulating it or ripping a chunk out and placing your chunk in is a totally different task than being presented with 10% of the plot via vague outlines and being asked to fill in the 90% that is missing.

If I gave you a car that was missing a component you might be able to replace that component, right?

If I gave you a drawing of a car and a list of attributes/requirements it should have and you needed to fabricate all the parts, the body, and then assemble it all into a working car.... that is a helluva different task.

Anything the writers have done before this season has been simply manipulating and existing story that is either 100% complete or like 95% complete for Winds of Winter.... if they were not sure how a conversation should go, they just read the written work and figured it out from there.... if they wanted to replace a chunk of story they could determine how things needed to be before and after based on the written story they had as their base.... now they have virtually nothing to work off of but his notes and outlines for the final book.

If this was no big deal for the writers, then why do they need 2 years to write/produce 6 episodes to conclude the series?

 

[remydat]

[/B]


The trial was still a con, to get LF there. While I can't speak for Spartan, the whole thing need not be a con, for a con to still be in place. The question is, at what point did the tables turn on LF? It's a good separate discussion. The simple fact is, 2 and 3 can both be true, and I don't think Spartan ever claimed the whole thing was a con, only the trial.

Here is what Spartan said.

And before Bran returned Sansa was already wise to what LF truly was and already suspicious of him when he first started trying to drive a wedge between the sisters.

In any event, explain to me why Bran wouldn't have told them the truth when they were in the garden together. We know now he was involved and we all saw the scene in the garden where he gives the knife to Arya and when Sansa explains LF's game.

Are you telling me you think that Bran decided to keep shit to himself and only told the sisters after the drama started. And if so why? Let me guess it's some bullshit about Bran being the 3 eyed raven and so he's just weird?

The most logical time for the off screen discussion to have occurred was right in that garden and the writers didn't show it because they didn't want the audience to know. It's even more Special person to assume, Bran stayed quiet there despite the conversation being LF but then decided at some other time to reveal the truth only after the sisters starting going at each other.

Again, the whole tension thing wasn't done because it made sense in the story. It was done solely to keep the audience guessing. We already know the writers have no problem doing things just to place the audience that doesn't make sense in story such as the ravens and dragons flying at warp speed and I am sorry but it makes no sense for Bran to not have told them while they were in the garden. In fact, based on your whole full circle argument you used earlier in this thread, that is the perfect opportunity to hatch the plan because the garden scene unites the 3 siblings and Bran gives Arya the dagger that almost killed him and that will eventually kill LF so it is in that moment that makes the best symbolic moment for the plan to have been hatched.

 

[remydat]

I disagree 100%, their main problem is needing to write original source material at this point.

Any change they made was based off existing plot and/or perhaps plot Martin had in Winds of Winter manuscript which they would have read.

Sansa going to Ramsay followed an existing book plot where her friend Jeyne Poole did the same thing posing as Arya Stark.... they took that plot concept and just merged Sansa into it, they didn't have to conjure it up.

Having 99% of the plot there and just manipulating it or ripping a chunk out and placing your chunk in is a totally different task than being presented with 10% of the plot via vague outlines and being asked to fill in the 90% that is missing.

If I gave you a car that was missing a component you might be able to replace that component, right?

If I gave you a drawing of a car and a list of attributes/requirements it should have and you needed to fabricate all the parts, the body, and then assemble it all into a working car.... that is a helluva different task.

Anything the writers have done before this season has been simply manipulating and existing story that is either 100% complete or like 95% complete for Winds of Winter.... if they were not sure how a conversation should go, they just read the written work and figured it out from there.... if they wanted to replace a chunk of story they could determine how things needed to be before and after based on the written story they had as their base.... now they have virtually nothing to work off of but his notes and outlines for the final book.

If this was no big deal for the writers, then why do they need 2 years to write/produce 6 episodes to conclude the series?

But them doing it was 100% stupid. There is no logical reason for LF to give up the women he supposedly loves to Ramsey hence why it never happens in the book. What did LF gain from that? It made sense in the books for it to be Poole because LF doesn't gave a fuck about her. It makes absolutely no sense for it to be Sansa when she at that point is the key to ruling the North and he supposedly loves her.

Also they fucked with the books before this season. Myrcella and Tommen are alive in the books. Ellaria Sand never has her brother in law murdered and launches her quest for revenge against Cersei. The whole Dorne plot in the TV show is essentially made up from the time Oberyn is killed. And where did it go. Ellaria and her daughter have essentially been dropped from the story as the actress that plays Ellaria basically says she wont return and essentially was killed off screen. So they wasted hours and hours of screen time on a plot element they made up when they could have just followed what was in the books. And it is obvious they did it for drama and so guys like the Hawk could get hard imagining Bron reunited with the Sand chick.

So the problems existed before they ran out of material. It is just exacerbated when they don't have the source material. But the overriding theme in these fuckups is the desire to make the story more exciting for the audience.

So I am not saying it's not a big deal. I am saying the problem is the writers are shitty. They are shitty in that they sacrifice plot for drama no matter how non sensical that drama is. There are plenty of writers out there that have to write original material and they do fine. These writers don't because they aren't that good. They were fine when all they were doing was following the source material. However, whenever they stray from that source material they do dumb things like the Dorne plot and LF giving up Sansa to Ramsey.

So I am simply saying the problem is broader than simply not having enough source material. These writers simply lack the creativity and coherence of other writers tasked with the same thing. There are not the first writers to adapt source material where they run out of source material. They just do it much more poorly than other writers.

 

[ZOMBIE@CTESPN]

Dude lf loves only lf. A guy from low birth who brought himself up with his scheming. He just finally got out hustled. It has been a spoiler since beginning of season but I didn't believe that one cause this worm can't be underestimated. But like arya said reminiscing about her father the lone wolf will die but the wolf pack will live. Maybe they set it up just for that analogy. Ncognet been spot on all season lol

 

[Ares]

But them doing it was 100% stupid. There is no logical reason for LF to give up the women he supposedly loves to Ramsey hence why it never happens in the book. What did LF gain from that? It made sense in the books for it to be Poole because LF doesn't gave a fuck about her. It makes absolutely no sense for it to be Sansa when she at that point is the key to ruling the North and he supposedly loves her.

Also they fucked with the books before this season. Myrcella and Tommen are alive in the books. Ellaria Sand never has her brother in law murdered and launches her quest for revenge against Cersei. The whole Dorne plot in the TV show is essentially made up from the time Oberyn is killed. And where did it go. Ellaria and her daughter have essentially been dropped from the story as the actress that plays Ellaria basically says she wont return and essentially was killed off screen.

So the problems existed before they ran out of material. It is just exacerbated when they don't have the source material. But the overriding theme in these fuckups is the desire to make the story more exciting for the audience.

So I am not saying it's not a big deal. I am saying the problem is the writers are shitty. They are shitty in that they sacrifice plot for drama no matter how non sensical that drama is. There are plenty of writers out there that have to write original material and they do fine. These writers don't because they aren't that good. They were fine when all they were doing was following the source material. However, whenever they stray from that source material they do dumb things like the Dorne plot and LF giving up Sansa to Ramsey.

So I am simply saying the problem is broader than simply not having enough source material. These writers simply lack the creativity and coherence of other writers tasked with the same thing. There are not the first writers to adapt source material where they run out of source material. They just do it much more poorly than other writers.

We don't know what will happen in the Dorne plot in Winds of Winter... Ellaria Sand or (more likely) Doran's daughter Arianne may well kill Doran and take control.

Once you get into Winds of Winter materials in Season 5, you don't know the book, so you cannot say whether they were going outside the book plot or using the book plot and manipulating it, I would assume the latter as that is what they have done 99% of the time.

The whole manipulation of the Sansa storyline was odd to me as well, but you cannot say they 100% conjured that material.... it was existing material that they manipulated.

I don't think the writers are shitty, I think they are being tasked with something outside of their capabilities.... I don't think these writers (nor many TV writers) are capable of 100% original source material creation.

The writers have done a good job with all the seasons where they had Martin's written novels to work off of.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Here is what Spartan said.



In any event, explain to me why Bran wouldn't have told them the truth when they were in the garden together. We know now he was involved and we all saw the scene in the garden where he gives the knife to Arya and when Sansa explains LF's game.

Are you telling me you think that Bran decided to keep shit to himself and only told the sisters after the drama started. And if so why? Let me guess it's some bullshit about Bran being the 3 eyed raven and so he's just weird?

The most logical time for the off screen discussion to have occurred was right in that garden and the writers didn't show it because they didn't want the audience to know. It's even more Special person to assume, Bran stayed quiet there despite the conversation being LF but then decided at some other time to reveal the truth only after the sisters starting going at each other.

Again, the whole tension thing wasn't done because it made sense in the story. It was done solely to keep the audience guessing. We already know the writers have no problem doing things just to place the audience that doesn't make sense in story such as the ravens and dragons flying at warp speed and I am sorry but it makes no sense for Bran to not have told them while they were in the garden. In fact, based on your whole full circle argument you used earlier in this thread, that is the perfect opportunity to hatch the plan because the garden scene unites the 3 siblings and Bran gives Arya the dagger that almost killed him and that will eventually kill LF so it is in that moment that makes the best symbolic moment for the plan to have been hatched.

I will let Spartan answer for Spartan. I don't think we have to be in complete agreement with each other to disagree with you, so that's a stupid argument.

As for the bolded, we already have witnessed Bran doesn't know everything, just bits and pieces of a lot of things. That was made painfully obvious when he thought Jon was still a bastard, but a Sand, and not a Snow. So, no, I don't think he was keeping things from Arya and Sansa, I just don't think he knew everything yet. He did/does however have the ability to go back and replay the events, exactly like he did with Rhaegar and Lyanna. His focus to date has mainly been on the NK, and this explains why he has not spent more time researching some of the more subtle details of events and transgressions of secondary characters such as LF. Oddly enough, he deems the WW's a much more immediate threat.

I don't personally buy into the theory that throughout the course of the season, Sansa and Arya have been playing a con on LF. It doesn't make any sense. Why have the scenes with Arya and Sansa accusing and confronting each other then? Are they just doing that because they think LF is outside the door with his ear to it? No, that is not the case, the friction was real, and not until LF gave his "imagine the worst thing" speech did Sansa put things together, find out her proof (most likely through bran) and then setup a con with Arya.

 

[remydat]

We don't know what will happen in the Dorne plot in Winds of Winter... Ellaria Sand or (more likely) Doran's daughter Arianne may well kill Doran and take control.

Once you get into Winds of Winter materials in Season 5, you don't know the book, so you cannot say whether they were going outside the book plot or using the book plot and manipulating it, I would assume the latter as that is what they have done 99% of the time.

The whole manipulation of the Sansa storyline was odd to me as well, but you cannot say they 100% conjured that material.... it was existing material that they manipulated.

I don't think the writers are shitty, I think they are being tasked with something outside of their capabilities.... I don't think these writers (nor many TV writers) are capable of 100% original source material creation.

The writers have done a good job with all the seasons where they had Martin's written novels to work off of.

Again I am not saying they 100% conjured the material. I am saying even when they had the material, they fucked it up whenever they decided to stray too far from the book. Ellaria in the book doesn't want revenge. She in fact was trying to stop Oberyn's daughters from seeking revenge so I see no way for that to suddenly change in the books. Myrcella was not murdered by Dorne. In fact, Dorne supports Myrcella as rightful Queen because Dorne doesn't have a bias against females when it comes to succession. I see no way the books could get anywhere near what the TV show did. Tommen does not commit suicide in the books because Cersei blowing them up was not in the books.

So my point is simply, they fuck things up not only when they lack the material from Martin but even when they have that material and they stray too far from it.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

To make matters worse, Littlefinger hasn't made sense in several seasons now. There was no reason for him to leave the Vale, to sell off Sansa to the Boltons, to break faith with the Lannisters, or to stick around in the North after all was said and done. Whatever brilliant scheming Baelish achieved early on, he lost his gift some years ago now.

LF wanted control of the North. he couldn't get that by just sitting on his thumbs with the Vale. He couldn't get it through Bran. He obviously couldn't get it from Jon. He damn sure couldn't get it from Arya. His end game relied on his alliance with Sansa.

1. The whole thing was a con to put LF off guard per Spartan.
2. But per Ares, this was a fake trial meaning there was no need to catch him off guard because he had no allies to help him and so would be dead no matter what.
3. But per Ncog, the tension was real and it wasn't until the end that they figured things out. Of course, why Bran wouldn't have just told them when they were all in the garden together with the dagger used to try and kill him is left unexplained.

1. Of course it was a con. Arya and Sansa were never divided. You could see that when they turned the tables on LF. You could see it when they were alone together and complimenting each other after LF was killed. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." The pack was together again after many years of being separated. They were stronger for it and never gave a single thought to turning on each other.

2. It was a fake trial in that a trial was not needed when you already have the answers. They knew LF would be caught off guard and just require a nudge here and there to completely break.

3. The tension was never real. I'm certain of that. Bran knew about that dagger the second it was handed to him. Did he tell his sisters about it? Likely he did considering he told them about LF holding it against their father's throat. You can say it was stupid to have LF give it to him but LF didn't know or understand what Bran had become. He was positing that it was the weapon the Lannisters tried to use against him.

I can see you being upset with the Bolton thing, thinking it made no sense cause his plan was never completely revealed and would require significant rationalizing to make sense of. But we know he wanted the North and Sansa was his only tool to get it. He couldn't have imagined Jon would return. Nor could he have imagined Arya and Bran would return and nobody seemed to understand what Bran had become. So all of that set him back quite a bit. But for him, it was always about getting Sansa to feel indebted to him and use his alliance with her to build an army powerful enough to gain the Iron Throne.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Again I am not saying they 100% conjured the material. I am saying even when they had the material, they fucked it up whenever they decided to stray too far from the book. Ellaria in the book doesn't want revenge. She in fact was trying to stop Oberyn's daughters from seeking revenge so I see no way for that to suddenly change in the books. Myrcella was not murdered by Dorne. In fact, Dorne supports Myrcella as rightful Queen because Dorne doesn't have a bias against females when it comes to succession. I see no way the books could get anywhere near what the TV show did. Tommen does not commit suicide in the books because Cersei blowing them up was not in the books.

So my point is simply, they fuck things up not only when they lack the material from Martin but even when they have that material and they stray too far from it.

I'm not sure how you can make blanket statements about things not being in the books, when the books haven't been published yet. All you have done is establish certain characters are still alive in the books that have been killed off in the show, but we already know the show is far ahead of the story line in the books. We also now that the ending in the show and the books will be the same, the major five characters will still be intact, so the fact they each get there in their own way is fine.

 

[remydat]

I will let Spartan answer for Spartan. I don't think we have to be in complete agreement with each other to disagree with you, so that's a stupid argument.

As for the bolded, we already have witnessed Bran doesn't know everything, just bits and pieces of a lot of things. That was made painfully obvious when he thought Jon was still a bastard, but a Sand, and not a Snow. So, no, I don't think he was keeping things from Arya and Sansa, I just don't think he knew everything yet. He did/does however have the ability to go back and replay the events, exactly like he did with Rhaegar and Lyanna. His focus to date has mainly been on the NK, and this explains why he has not spent more time researching some of the more subtle details of events and transgressions of secondary characters such as LF. Oddly enough, he deems the WW's a much more immediate threat.

I don't personally buy into the theory that throughout the course of the season, Sansa and Arya have been playing a con on LF. It doesn't make any sense. Why have the scenes with Arya and Sansa accusing and confronting each other then? Are they just doing that because they think LF it outside the door with his ear to it? No, that is not the case, the friction was real, and not until LF gave his "imagine the worst thing" speech did Sansa put things together, find out her proof (most likely through bran) and then setup a con with Arya.

Lol, I am not saying you have to be in complete agreement with each other in order to disagree with me. I am saying the fact you guys can't agree as to what actually happened is proof it was an incoherent story. Again you seem confused by the argument. This was a major death that ends LF's story and yet we can't even agree on what actually happened. That's not good writing.

The difference with your example is we saw on screen him getting more information from Sam that allowed him to go back and fill in the bits and pieces. There is no such scene that allows us to just assume he filled in the bits after the fact. Or did I miss a scene. Like you are using shit the show clearly shows to then imagine that something happened off screen. I am not interested in your fan fiction.

And I already told you why have the scenes of Arya and Sansa. It creates drama for the audience. You are acting like these writers have never done anything solely for drama that didn't fit with the story. They have been doing so all season. It's the same reason the ravens and dragons fly at warp speed. It's the same reason Dany magically appears just as all looks lost. It's the same reason Gendry runs like Usain Bolt. It's the same reason Bron can tackle a Jamie into deep water.

The writers take liberties with the story to create drama for the audience. It doesn't have to make sense in story as you can't tell me you haven't yourself pointed out plot holes or things that don't make sense in the story. We simply disagree on whether this one qualifies because you are filling in the plot holes with your personal fan fiction that exists outside of the actual story told on the show. You are free to do so of course as we all are. However, everyone else is free to come up with their own fan fiction when the show leaves these gaps which is precisely why it's terrible writing. The fan fiction should be of storylines that haven't concluded as it's fun to speculate and then see what happens. However, when you close a storyline like they did here, there shouldn't be all these things that happened off screen for you, Sparan, Ares, and myself to try insert our own fan fiction into.

That's not good writing. The only time that stuff makes sense is when it's something like Inception where the open plot point adds to the overall experience. Us not sure of exactly what happened doesn't add to the story, it detracts from it.

 

[nc0gnet0]

LF wanted control of the North. he couldn't get that by just sitting on his thumbs with the Vale. He couldn't get it through Bran. He obviously couldn't get it from Jon. He damn sure couldn't get it from Arya. His end game relied on his alliance with Sansa.



1. Of course it was a con. Arya and Sansa were never divided. You could see that when they turned the tables on LF. You could see it when they were alone together and complimenting each other after LF was killed. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." The pack was together again after many years of being separated. They were stronger for it and never gave a single thought to turning on each other.

2. It was a fake trial in that a trial was not needed when you already have the answers. They knew LF would be caught off guard and just require a nudge here and there to completely break.

3. The tension was never real. I'm certain of that. Bran knew about that dagger the second it was handed to him. Did he tell his sisters about it? Likely he did considering he told them about LF holding it against their father's throat. You can say it was stupid to have LF give it to him but LF didn't know or understand what Bran had become. He was positing that it was the weapon the Lannisters tried to use against him.

I can see you being upset with the Bolton thing, thinking it made no sense cause his plan was never completely revealed and would require significant rationalizing to make sense of. But we know he wanted the North and Sansa was his only tool to get it. He couldn't have imagined Jon would return. Nor could he have imagined Arya and Bran would return and nobody seemed to understand what Bran had become. So all of that set him back quite a bit. But for him, it was always about getting Sansa to feel indebted to him and use his alliance with her to build an army powerful enough to gain the Iron Throne.

This is where you and I disagree, I don't think Sansa and Arya had a plan from the get go, rather it came together much later in the season. I believe the tension was real. I think what LF was doing WAS working, until Sansa had an epiphany. I could be wrong, and I have heard many people share your opinion, but, it doesn't make sense for reasons I have already laid out.

 

[remydat]

I'm not sure how you can make blanket statements about things not being in the books, when the books haven't been published yet. All you have done is establish certain characters are still alive in the books that have been killed off in the show, but we already know the show is far ahead of the story line in the books. We also now that the ending in the show and the books will be the same, the major five characters will still be intact, so the fact they each get there in their own way is fine.

I can make blanket statements because the TV show already showed us stuff that is impossible in the books. Sansa never went to Ramsey in the books and there is really no way for that to happen in the books because it was someone else. Myrcella was murdered in the TV show during a time that has already passed in the books as she is murdered shortly after Oberyn is dead. Further in the books, Dorne supports Myrcella as Queen. In the books Ellaria Sand specifically speaks out against revenge fro Oberyn's death something she never does in the TV show.

So not sure what you take issue with. There are clearly things that happened in the show that can't happen in the TV show and those are the things I commented on. I don't have a problem with the books and TV show diverging. I simply am saying the TV show has diverged in ways that are Special person and stupid because some of it doesn't make sense within the story and clearly was done to add drama. Having Sansa raped by Ramsey didn't make sense. LF would never give her up. It was done to add drama to Sansa's story. Pretty sure you said so at one point in this thread.