Garza To Rangers -- Olt, Edwards, Grimm to Chi (Post 607)

[KBisBack!]

So if he wants or gets more than that he is overpaid?

I am ok with overpaying for players.

The Cubs are a big market team that can afford to do so if they decide to value winning over excessive profits.

I am fucking sick of hearing about how the Cubs should only go after 'cost effective' players.

 

[dabynsky]

I am ok with overpaying for players.

The Cubs are a big market team that can afford to do so if they decide to value winning over excessive profits.

I am fucking sick of hearing about how the Cubs should only go after 'cost effective' players.

And the big market aspect is at the discretion of the owner. The front office is given a budget, and Matt Garza extension is going to cost a significant percentage of that amount. I want to know what is an acceptable amount of that money in your book.

 

[DewsSox79]

the cubs should NOT give Garza Anibal money. end of story.

 

[achap39]

Doesn't matter the amount spent. This is baseball, not accounting. You don't get a bonus for spending less money.

If you honestly think baseball...or any sport, for that matter...ISN'T about accounting, you're kidding yourself. See what happens when payroll reaches approx. $200M. Everything, price-wise gets jacked up. When those players don't perform, you're now stuck with a bad team, immovable contracts, and no one going to the games.



And the Dodgers are also only 3.5 games out of first place and have been one of the best teams in baseball the last 3-4 weeks.

They have played a large portion of the season without Hanley Ramirez, Zack Greinke and Matt Kemp.

Think that might have been holding them back??

They will make the playoffs.

They were the ones who built their team with a list of guys who have had a history of injury problems (i.e. Crawford, Beckett, Hanley missing games in 2011). Their $230M payroll has gotten them squat so far. And yes, I DO think they will miss the playoffs.

You mean like they did last year??

Almora was widely considered by draft 'experts' to be the best player available in the entire draft, much less just who was left at #5.

No we haven't.

The Cubs have signed one elite Free Agent in what, ever???

Thank you for making my point FOR me. The Cubs sign who are perceived to be your proverbial 'big names' and they fall flat on their faces. The Cubs made Randy Myers the 14th highest paid pitcher in the game (and 2nd highest-paid closer). How did that work out again? They overpaid for Soriano. Fukudome (Remember? The same guy that was getting Ichiro comparisons and they had the highest BID to get him over here?). The Zambrano extension.

Guess what, though? This isn't 1986. This isn't 1996. Signing 'cost-effective' players and developing talent is how you win nowadays. Hendry didn't understand that, and apparently neither do you.

 

[dabears253313]

I would much rather have a proven player like Matt Garza on the Cubs roster than them trading for unproven prospects. Keeping Garza gives the Cubs a better chance of winning soon rather waiting another five years for these prospects to develop.

 

[CSF77]

And who exactly would they have spent 'big money' on it for an immediate fix? Josh Hamilton? CJ Wilson? This was a horribly weak FA class going into the 2013 season as it was- the 'big money' names have underperformed this year. I'd rather be patient and actually develop homegrown talent rather than keeping going down the Hendry road of big money deals that fall flat on their face (Z, Soriano, Bradley, Fukudome, et al).

Never said that. I said spending money to fix the problems.

Which means not using 3B as a unproven platoon to save a buck. RF for future trade assets and setting up 2/3's and the closer as trade goods. Other words building a team that is set up to sell vs being a legit play off contender.

That takes talent. The Ricketts' have proven sense day 1, UNO ...that they are lowering payroll and turning what was a big market payroll into a mid market payroll while the ticket sales and attendance stayed the same. So they were making enough to support a 150 mil team before and now they were not? ok

First time Garza has had any issue in his career. He has come back from it and his velocity is the exact same. 5 years is not something to be hesitant on in my opinion. Now, you go more than 5 or he wants over a 100 million then I pump the brakes.

A lot of reports are saying Garza is looking for a Sanchez contract. He would not take less then that and wants more. I think 5 years 80-90 is the ball park.

Just saying it is cause to hesitate. Or an excuse to justify not spending and pointing to a figure that they felt was out of their price range vs just selling with not effort.

Feldman was expect and he did not spend enough time to get the fan base behind him. He was a AL pitcher to boot. Maholm with his time in at Pitt. was more known and the fan base had mixed opinion about the deal. Feldman not so much.

Garza on the other hand is a fan fav. Just ass canning him with out even giving the appearance of trying to retain would have gone over bad.

So I believe this whole "Show" is smoke and mirrors.

Reporters are not buying it either.

 

[waldo7239117]

A John Danks contract would be nice, but before he insisted on a NTC and Cubs said no. That broke contract negotiations, so it's a toss-up.

 

[Boobaby1]

So if he wants or gets more than that he is overpaid?

Cubs won't go that high because they won't have to. I think he is as good as gone. Why on earth would Theo retain a contract like that when he can beef up the farm which is his plan all along with an asset like Garza? The only other Cub that could get good young talent is Shark.

The Cubs will have to continue to find players like Sanchez and start outbidding other teams to fill out the rotation and positions. Hopefully then, some guys that they actually traded away proven talent for as far as pitchers will start to hit the parent club. The Cubs need a home grown pitcher or m ore like Shark. PERIOD!

 

[Boobaby1]

I would much rather have a proven player like Matt Garza on the Cubs roster than them trading for unproven prospects.

Until we see the pattern start to change, we have to assume they will keep doing it.

Keeping Garza gives the Cubs a better chance of winning soon rather waiting another five years for these prospects to develop.

Only if they add players around him. Otherwise, it's kind of pointless.

As far as the prospects, you would have to think that the Cubs are going to as for a little bit more than A-ball players, I think stellar AA or really good AAA pitchers is the least they would take. opcorn:

 

[SilenceS]

Well MLB is going to suspend those players. Know what I am thinking? Nelson Cruz is one of them. Soriano and Garza and the Cubs eat almost all of Sorianos contract for Perez, Olt, Grimm, and Neftali Feliz. Or some form of that package. I could let them go for that.

 

[TL1961]

Health reasons. Sanchez came into his F/A with 3 years of clean health. Garza lost 4-5 months with 2 injuries. There is reason to hesitate.


That being said he could pull back a big return.

With Baez in AA now we got to figure at best S/T 2015.

At that point they would have Shark, Wood and Jackson under control. If Shark steps up to become an Ace I'd offer him the big contract. Wood repeats same thing. Those 2 could become the back bone of the rotation. At that point it is just filling in the back half with either what ever comes up worth their salt, if not then spend on a arm until one develops.

Allot of this is about timing. Right now this team is a wreck. Next year with or with out Garza it will still be a wreck.

Because they are not willing to spend big $ to fix it.

No, because you can't build a team through FA. You can add a piece or two, but you must build from within. For the first time in forever, the Cubs are doing it the right way. Which, naturally, most of their fans don't understand, due to being unfamiliar with the right way.

 

[dabynsky]

Well MLB is going to suspend those players. Know what I am thinking? Nelson Cruz is one of them. Soriano and Garza and the Cubs eat almost all of Sorianos contract for Perez, Olt, Grimm, and Neftali Feliz. Or some form of that package. I could let them go for that.

I would jump at that deal but I doubt Feliz is going anywhere even with the injury concern for a rental pitcher and 37 year old DH.

 

[patg006]

No, because you can't build a team through FA. You can add a piece or two, but you must build from within. For the first time in forever, the Cubs are doing it the right way. Which, naturally, most of their fans don't understand, due to being unfamiliar with the right way.

CC Sabathia, Mark Texiera, ARod, AJ Burnett, Johnny Damon, Nick Swisher, Hideki Matsui, and several others from the 2009 New York Yankees world series roster say hello. Or are you gonna tell me hometown prospects Jeter, Posada, Ian Kennedy, Pettite, Joba, and Mariano were the main reason they won?

Think they built the "wrong way?" I dont. They built the smart way. And have a world series to show for it.

Thing is, once again. You have to do both. Sometimes one more than the other. Waiting around for prospects to turn into stars out of thin air leads to 20 year gaps in history like the Pittsburgh Pirates--and even then; there's no guarantee they dont get picked clean like most small market teams when they cant afford to keep all their players. If Gerrit Cole is the real deal, the Bucs wont be able to foot his 200 million dollar contract; unless he does the nice deal like McCutcheon.

Significant pieces should be acquired through free agency when necessary. More than "a piece or two." All three facets of drafting/farm system, signings, and trades need to be working for contenders to win it all. Cards have done it, Giants have done it, Yankees have done it, Phillies too.

The facade of "build the farm first and spend little on free agents" has not proven to be "the right way." Ask the Rays, ask the Athletics, ask the current Pirates, ask the Nationals. A balance needs to be met.

 

[Willrust]

No, because you can't build a team through FA. You can add a piece or two, but you must build from within. For the first time in forever, the Cubs are doing it the right way. Which, naturally, most of their fans don't understand, due to being unfamiliar with the right way.

Actually, the Cubs tried building this way in the 80's (From Dallas Green up till they let Maddux walk) and again from mid 90's to early 00's (Wood, Prior, Zambrano & Patterson). The Tribune decided to go cheap and let Maddux walk. Then, they sold to Zell; who decided to boost the "value" of the team through backloading an increased payroll (that he would never have to pay) and cutting money from the farm system and player development.

 

[chibears55]

The facade of "build the farm first and spend little on free agents" has not proven to be "the right way." Ask the Rays, ask the Athletics, ask the current Pirates, ask the Nationals. A balance needs to be met.

your forgetting one huge difference, the cubs would be able to keep (pay)their star kids from the system and also pay big on needed FAs, the teams you mentioned cant . thats why im ok with what theyve done the last couple years with putting their main focus on their system, but i also (this offseason ) expect them to now start putting more focus on building up their main team.

they sold to Zell; who decided to boost the "value" of the team through backloading an increased payroll (that he would never have to pay) and cutting money from the farm system and player development.

which is the main reason why their in the position their in now..

 

[patg006]

your forgetting one huge difference, the cubs would be able to keep (pay)their star kids from the system and also pay big on needed FAs, the teams you mentioned cant . thats why im ok with what theyve done the last couple years with putting their main focus on their system, but i also (this offseason ) expect them to now start putting more focus on building up their main team.

That's fair, however I've listed names I thought could have helped way sooner. But cant always get what I want. We differ. I believe the ML team should not be sacrificed for the sake of making the farm system the organization's 1-way street

 

[Willrust]

Just because the franchise has placed a focus on youth and development (something that has not been a focus of this organization since the early 00's) for the 1st 2 seasons under the thumb of Epstein and Hoyer doesn't set in stone that the Cubs will never pursue a star free agent.

 

[justaChifan]

Actually, the Cubs tried building this way in the 80's (From Dallas Green up till they let Maddux walk) and again from mid 90's to early 00's (Wood, Prior, Zambrano & Patterson). The Tribune decided to go cheap and let Maddux walk. Then, they sold to Zell; who decided to boost the "value" of the team through backloading an increased payroll (that he would never have to pay) and cutting money from the farm system and player development.

Right, that's why they Shitcanned Dallas Green. He wanted to build the farm but the Trib wanted to put asses in the seats.

It will be interesting to see which way this team goes if they stay in contention up to the deadline.

 

[dabears253313]

the cubs should NOT give Garza Anibal money. end of story.

You're right, because Garza is better than Anibal.

 

[CSF77]

Ok let me put into layman's terms. The Cubs have the resources to have a payroll in the 130 mil range. The Ricketts' chose to run a 100 mil payroll and are using the excess to fund other projects. So instead of providing the fan base with a team that could compete they gave enough payroll to sign some F/A that needed an opurtunity to prove that they could become every day players or starting pitchers.

Hoyer has scoured the waver wire all season for other teams trash and some did work out. Over all this team was built to get by and they got lucky with some of the gambles.

So with to the point of the thread. The team was set up to sell and that is what they will do. Their focus is on adding talent to develop as they are now 15% over the max. They are just filling the system. Not funding a winner. So retaining Garza who could net a top 100 would be unlikely.

The Cubs are close to a deal with Taiwanese pitcher Jen-Ho Tseng, MLB.com's Jesse Sanchez reports. Sanchez expects that Tseng's bonus will cost the Cubs a little over $1.5MM. Sanchez had tweeted on Monday that the Cubs had emerged as the favorite to sign Tseng.

The Cubs have already signed Gleyber Torres for $1.7MM, Jefferson Mejia for $850K, Erling Moreno for $650K and Johan Matos for $270K, and they have an agreement with top outfield prospect Eloy Jimenez for $2.8MM. That means they will have exceeded their $5.52MM international bonus pool even before the Tseng signing.

This again illustrates the focus of the year. jack the system with talent.


Now the way I'm looking at it:

Garza right now has not led this team to a play off birth. He has played 2nd fiddle to Dempster then got injured. Now he finally looks healthy but even so the talent pool on the team is lacking. Face it Sori's hot streak has gotten them up to 40 -48. If he goes cold then the talent pool will not survive it.

So if he is used to get a few quality players:

Well having a abundance of talent is a good thing. As I've illustrated they are not talented enough to contend and the talent is too far away.

But if they keep up stock piling: That could mean when enough of the talent promotes they would have excess that could be used to acquire established players. In this I mean have the talent to get a Price or Stanton with out drying up the system.

So I'd be surprised if they retain to be honest. Cubs are a .500 team when Sori is hitting. The Div has been crushing them. I don't see it until Baez is on the team at min. Bryant if he signs would add to it.

Basically 2015 at best I expect them to add vs subtract.