Give Theo time

[mountsalami]

Is it difficult to understand that payroll went from 96M in 2006 to 106M in 2013? Stop focusing only on a payroll that ballooned to 144M with the purpose of increasing the accessed value of the team to increase the sales price.

Maybe you are on to something with your statement will.

Is Ricketts now trying to intentionally drive down the value of the team he overpaid for ?

I mean gee whiz. Why doesn't he just put a 200 million dollar payroll on the field and go to the bank and borrow the excess inflated value of the team to fund his clubhouse renovations.

 

[KBisBack!]

Attendance went from 3.12M in 2006 to a high of 3.3M in 2008 down to to 3M in 2010 & a low of 2.8 in 2012! I couldn't give a **** what the averages are. The Cubs increase in ticket prices would counteract the drop in attendance to a degree, but wouldn't increase revenues by the 37M you purport.

Actually it does increase revenues by $37M.

The math was right in front of you for the entire world to see.

So of the seasons would have been slightly less and some slightly more based on the attendance, but that is why I used the average attendance for the five seasons or so to avoid your childish strawman games.

However you didn't disappoint.

So Forbes has listed that the revenues have increased.

I gave the basic math on how the increase in ticket prices alone accounted for nearly $40M.

And yet you still stamp your feet and throw your sippy cup with a childish temper tantrum that the Cubs aren't making as much money as they are.

And people wonder why I point out that people have an agenda?

However, the Cubs also decreased the ticket prices with the decrease in payroll:

http://sportslistoftheday.com/2012/...st-index-for-all-30-baseball-teams-2008-2012/

So, when Ricketts took over operations he began lowering ticket prices. Sounds exactly like something that a person only interested in making money would do. As opposed to the Tribune under Zell that increase ticket prices every year until they sold the team in 2010.

I know this will probably be too advanced for you to understand, but if your revenue decreases by roughly 11% (lowering ticket prices) but you drop your operating costs by about 27.5% (lowering payroll), guess what that leaves you??

MORE PROFIT!

 

[chibears55]

I am pointing out the obvious.

Ricketts will spend money where it will make him money

ok.. nothing wrong with doing that .. but he also spent money on ST facility, domestic academy, money on the draft, money on domestic players
other important parts of the organization then just what can profit him more money...
BUT we do agree that he should/could be spending more money on the major league team itself..

And yet many other teams seem to be doing it.

But somehow it is unreasonable to expect the Great Theo and Co to do the same??

Um ok.

doing what ??? i just said above that the difference between the cubs when epstein took over and those other teams are probably the fact that the other team has/had better quality players on the major league roster that are on the cheap now because they came up from their organization, so their salary isnt high and they probably have a better minor league system then the cubs have had the last couple of years that they were able to plug into their roster..

epstein had pretty much nothing from the minors that was ready to go and had to salary dump along with bringing in a lot of low cost FAs..


those other teams didnt have to salary dump, they already had their low cost players in which most were probably from within and your basically only talking that their 1-5 games better then the cubs which really isnt much especially considering the cubs could be a few games better if soriano was driving in runs, marmol wasnt blowing games, and garza wasnt on the DL.. not saying their the whole problem but those are 3 of their high cost players he inherited and last year garza and marmol didnt do much for them and so far this year all 3 have been blah ( garza hurt )...

so again, to sit here after 2 off seasons and say epstein sucks..
cant really go there yet.. have to see what he does when or if he given an extended payroll or more flexibility to spend along with an improve farm system, which he working on now..getting quantity and hoping to gain a few quality out of it..

 

[KBisBack!]

Stop focusing only on a payroll that ballooned to 144M with the purpose of increasing the accessed value of the team to increase the sales price.

I know you have demonstrated a fairly comprehensive lack of economic acumen, but you can't increase your cost of operating and increase the value of the company. A high operating cost usually lowers the value of the company.

You see, a higher payroll lowers the amount of profit a team makes.

Less profit equals less value to the company.

 

[KBisBack!]

ok.. nothing wrong with doing that .. but he also spent money on ST facility, domestic academy, money on the draft, money on domestic players
other important parts of the organization then just what can profit him more money...

The City of Mesa provided $84M of the $99M to construct the spring training facility.

The Dominican Academy cost $7M

The money on the draft was like $7M

Jorge Soler cost about $3M this year.

That is $32M total if they paid for it all out of pocket at once. Very doubtful.

One season of lowering the payroll from the $145M mark to the current $105M more than pays for it.

Also the new spring training ballpark seats 2,500 more as well and with the Cubs being one of the biggest spring training draws, guess what that means??

More profit.

doing what ???

Fielding better teams for less money. Pay attention.

i just said above that the difference between the cubs when epstein took over and those other teams are probably the fact that the other team has/had better quality players on the major league roster that are on the cheap now because they came up from their organization, so their salary isnt high and they probably have a better minor league system then the cubs have had the last couple of years that they were able to plug into their roster..

Some teams probably qualify for what you said.

But not all of them.

And Epstein was brought in and paid the big money to be average. He was brought in to be great.

That is what was promised to the fans.

He has completely underwhelmed.

so again, to sit here after 2 off seasons and say epstein sucks..
cant really go there yet..

We most certainly can.

At the end of this season, he will be 40% of the way through his contract.

It is not too early anymore.

 

[Willrust]

I know you have demonstrated a fairly comprehensive lack of economic acumen, but you can't increase your cost of operating and increase the value of the company. A high operating cost usually lowers the value of the company.

You see, a higher payroll lowers the amount of profit a team makes.

Less profit equals less value to the company.

Well, payroll would affect profits, however lower profits do not necessarily decrease the value of a franchise. In baseball, payroll, more importantly the players themselves, are deemed as assets that are controlled by the organization. Therefore signing a player to a large contract would reduce profits, however increases the assets the organization controls, hence increasing the value of the franchise.

 

[KBisBack!]

Well, payroll would affect profits, however lower profits do not necessarily decrease the value of a franchise. In baseball, payroll, more importantly the players themselves, are deemed as assets that are controlled by the organization. Therefore signing a player to a large contract would reduce profits, however increases the assets the organization controls, hence increasing the value of the franchise.

But Soriano was supposedly one of the worst contracts in the history of baseball.

Still doesn't change that you can artificially inflate the value of the franchise simply by spending on players.

It is absurd to think that is the case.

Otherwise every single owner would be doing it.

They aren't.

The Dodgers were in an even worse situation than the Cubs as they themselves were going through bankruptcy, not just the corporation that owned them.

You didn't see them going out and spending lavishly to increase the value of the franchise. They signed Kemp to a big deal, but that was it.

Their payroll level remained fairly constant between 2007 and 2012 with a slight blip up in 2008 and 2011.

Sorry, I know it fits your agenda, but there is simple no factual evidence or sound logic that will support it.

The value of the franchise increased because the Cubs won games and went to the playoffs, not because of the increase in payroll.

 

[chibears55]

More profit.

thats great.. im sure every MLB owner goal is to make profit or more profit every year..if not their something wrong with them..
and like i said a few times already, i agree that he should spend more on the team ..

And Epstein was brought in and paid the big money to be average. He was brought in to be great.

That is what was promised to the fans.

He has completely underwhelmed.

well i guess this is where we step off cause were just not going to agree here..

his payroll was dropped by almost 40 mil and he didnt have much to anything ready in the minors to step up and fill in where needed..
kind of hard to field a .500 team when you dont have good players available in your system to step up and perform and your not able to sign enough good players to reasonable contracts because you have to stay at a certain amount.
i blame the ricketts more then epstein for where their at on the major league level right now..

We most certainly can.

At the end of this season, he will be 40% of the way through his contract.

It is not too early anymore.

and again, his hands have been tied for what he can do.. he not allowed to spend on the major league level but is allowed to spend in the draft and internationally..
he done a pretty good job in his first 2 yrs bringing in some good ball players for the system..

 

[mountsalami]

and again, his hands have been tied for what he can do.. he not allowed to spend on the major league level but is allowed to spend in the draft and internationally..
he done a pretty good job in his first 2 yrs bringing in some good ball players for the system..

That's bullshit. He ties his own hands for the garbage he has signed in great quanity. If he's so damn good he could untie his own hands.

Boy Blunder has clearly shown to this point, that he has very little clue on how to build a team on a "budget."

The won/loss record and the team on the field do not lie.

The guy has flat out sucked.

 

[KBisBack!]

thats great.. im sure every MLB owner goal is to make profit or more profit every year..if not their something wrong with them..
and like i said a few times already, i agree that he should spend more on the team ..

No one is saying that Rickett's shouldn't make money.

But to have the 3rd most revenue and 14th or 15th highest payroll is ridiculous.

his payroll was dropped by almost 40 mil and he didnt have much to anything ready in the minors to step up and fill in where needed..
kind of hard to field a .500 team when you dont have good players available in your system to step up and perform and your not able to sign enough good players to reasonable contracts because you have to stay at a certain amount.
i blame the ricketts more then epstein for where their at on the major league level right now..

Stop it.

There are other teams winning without some great influx of minor league talent or a roster already filled with talent.

The Orioles did it last year with no great influx of cheap minor league talent. The made solid moves in the offseason.

And for god's sake look at the Yankees this year.

They have almost $100M worth of salary on the DL right now, and for most of the year between A-Rod, Jeter, Teixeira, Granderson and Youkilis and they are being held together and winning ballgames with the likes of Travis Hafner, Lyle Overbay and Jayson Nix who are making combined under $5M.

So spare me the crap that it is impossible to sign good players to reasonable contracts.

OTHER TEAMS ARE DOING IT!

75% of the roster has been turned over and Theo handed out about $50M in salary this year to the likes of Edwin Jackson, Carlos Villeneuva, Fujikawa, Feldman, Baker, Hairston, Scheirholtz, Ian Stewart and Dioner Navarro.

There was plenty of money and plenty of deals to make the team better.

HE FAILED.

and again, his hands have been tied for what he can do.. he not allowed to spend on the major league level but is allowed to spend in the draft and internationally..
he done a pretty good job in his first 2 yrs bringing in some good ball players for the system..

His hands haven't been tied 1/10th as you wish the reality was.

I've just pointed out where he was allowed to spend at least $50M on bringing in players for this season. Sorry but the facts outweigh your opinion.

And a pretty good job bringing players into the system???

Jorge Soler EVERYONE knew about. It wasn't some great find or scouting job.

Rizzo has been doing much better and I guess got locked up to a seven year deal, but they had to give up a great talent in Cashner to get him. Both players are still developing so this one is an incomplete.

Albert Almora?? Was it some great mastermind move by Epstein that somehow awarded the Cubs the #6 pick, or were the Cubs going to still draft #6 if Theo and Co were in charge or you or i??

Who else?? Vizcaino?? Who has yet to even throw a pitch for the Cubs organization?? If he makes it to the major leagues and can prove himself to be a quality major leaguer, this is no great addition.

Fujikawa has been a bust so far.

Gerardo Concepcion has been a colossal bust and seems to be MIA this year as I can't find any info for him this season. He hasn't pitched for the Cubs at AA or either A level ball. Maybe he is off to short season Boise.

He has been extremely hit and miss with a 100 loss season on the books last year. I would say that ranks him as below average.

 

[nwfisch]

That's bullshit. He ties his own hands for the garbage he has signed in great quanity. If he's so damn good he could untie his own hands.

Boy Blunder has clearly shown to this point, that he has very little clue on how to build a team on a "budget."

The won/loss record and the team on the field do not lie.

The guy has flat out sucked.

So signing Rizzo to a deal worth $200M less than Pujols is a bad move?

 

[KBisBack!]

So signing Rizzo to a deal worth $200M less than Pujols is a bad move?

If the Cubs end up with 7 years of the below average for his position production he provided post All Star game it will be a bad move.

 

[chibears55]

well we will just disagree on a certain level of this.. you make some solid points that i agree with and some i dont..

sure the money spent couldve been spent on better talent if those other talents wanted to come here ( and i hate the jackson signing and bringing back stewart ), but i will put most of blame on the ricketts until he gives him more flexibility in spending on the major league level..

 

[The Bandit]

If the Cubs end up with 7 years of the below average for his position production he provided post All Star game it will be a bad move.

Still not that horrible when you look at the numbers, at 5.85 or whatever he could just be moved to bench duty and be only a little above average pay wage.

 

[KBisBack!]

but i will put most of blame on the ricketts until he gives him more flexibility in spending on the major league level..

Over $50M spent on the major league level for this season this past offseason.

Exactly how much more flexibility does he need?

 

[KBisBack!]

Still not that horrible when you look at the numbers, at 5.85 or whatever he could just be moved to bench duty and be only a little above average pay wage.

Yes he could, or if he busts they could just keep throwing him out there like they are trying with Stewart.

I am reserving judgement till there is more data available. He has been swinging a very hot bat the last three weeks.

 

[dabears253313]

If the Cubs end up with 7 years of the below average for his position production he provided post All Star game it will be a bad move.

Rizzo's batting average is up to .280 and I think he is top 5 in homeruns for MLB or at least the NL. He's also a good fielder and pretty athletic.

Isn't he batting over .400 this month?

Having him and Starlin Castro around for the next 7 years will be great.

 

[chibears55]

If the Cubs end up with 7 years of the below average for his position production he provided post All Star game it will be a bad move.

you can also say IF pujols gives the angels below his average numbers for his position production he provided with the cardinals, it will be a bad sign...
especially if he craps out in yrs 6-10 of the contract which was back loaded as he will be paid 140 mil over the last 5 yrs between the age of 37-41..


theres alot of IFs in baseball, just have to hope your team has more good IFs come true then bad ones ray:

 

[The Bandit]

Yes he could, or if he busts they could just keep throwing him out there like they are trying with Stewart.

I am reserving judgement till there is more data available. He has been swinging a very hot bat the last three weeks.

I think they are starting to realize Stewart is a lost cause. Jed didn't sound happy when he found out that the guy took a three day weekend because he is entitled to it from the union negotiations so when he was optioned back he took his sweet time. I'm pretty sure the only reason he is still here well at Iowa where he belongs, is that Theo and Jed won't admit that it was a horrid idea bringing him back this year let alone in the first place.

 

[mountsalami]

So signing Rizzo to a deal worth $200M less than Pujols is a bad move?

It's fair to say the jury is still out on this. You are still allowed to feverishly spank your monkey in the meantime.