Greatest team ever/Greatest bulls team ever

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I love how everything is a benefit of the doubt approach with Pippen. Except when it is a player people are claiming is better than Pippen, it is always a glass-half-empty approach to evaluating that player.

This is why I called you and Glide homers before, 97bulls...

 

[97Bulls]

This is just amazing. All the things all of you guys have held against pippen holds true for a lot of these other all-time greats.

Code says you can't knock jordan for not winning early in his career cuz of the small sample size and he didn't have a team good enough to compete.But then for whatever reason holds pippen to a standard that he doesn't hold jordan to.

Rami degrades pippen saying that he didn't take over big games. Well how many big game has kobe taken over in the finals? How bout this, I bet I can name more games where pippen took over than kobe in the finals. He definately performed much better than kobe in the finals.

At least be consistant guys... come on. You wanna rank kobe and magic ahead of pippen fine, I do too based on what thheyve accompliised. But why overlook their transgression but hold pippen accountable for his? Especially when in kobes case, he was in pippens shoes in many situations.

 

[97Bulls]

43% would not be that bad at all for a SG. The guy is a career 45-46% shooter at does it as a high volume scorer who gets to the FT line 8-9 times per-game. That is something Pippen could never dream of.

If Pippen had the same offensive role as Bryant did, he would not even shoot 40% from the field and would average far less points.

Pippen in his prime was a 48-50% fg shooter. Taking an extra 4-5 shots a game would lower his efficiency down to about 45% right around kobes except he would take as many bad shots.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

This is just amazing. All the things all of you guys have held against pippen holds true for a lot of these other all-time greats.

Code says you can't knock jordan for not winning early in his career cuz of the small sample size and he didn't have a team good enough to compete.But then for whatever reason holds pippen to a standard that he doesn't hold jordan to.

If Pippen had a team good enough to compete for a title, he wouldn't be the best player on the team.

Rami degrades pippen saying that he didn't take over big games. Well how many big game has kobe taken over in the finals? How bout this, I bet I can name more games where pippen took over than kobe in the finals. He definately performed much better than kobe in the finals.

They had different roles in the Finals. That's what you are not quite grasping. Kobe was sooooo much better than Pippen at scoring. Kobe was asked to bail out the team's offense when nothing else was available or working for them in a much similar way that Jordan used to. Pippen played off of Jordan to get his baskets.

And Kobe Bryant took over a couple of Games in the Finals- namely Game 5 in IND and Game 4 in BOS in 2010. The NJ series was a walk in the park in 2002. So was the PHI series in 2001. In the DET series in 2004, he saved them from going down 0-2 with a clutch three.

At least be consistant guys... come on. You wanna rank kobe and magic ahead of pippen fine, I do too based on what thheyve accompliised. But why overlook their transgression but hold pippen accountable for his? Especially when in kobes case, he was in pippens shoes in many situations.

I'm not bashing Pippen. I'm just saying he was no Kobe or Magic. I've criticized Kobe so many times it's not even funny.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Pippen in his prime was a 48-50% fg shooter. Taking an extra 4-5 shots a game would lower his efficiency down to about 45% right around kobes except he would take as many bad shots.

Your logic just wouldn't carry over and hold true. Do you really think Pippen could have played in Kobe's exact same role and still shot anywhere near his percentage or scored anywhere near the same amount of points?

Kobe Bryant was asked to bail out the offense whenever it struggled and/or whenever they went up against a dominant defense. Pippen had a very inconsistent jump-shot and could not adjust his shot very well. Pippen depended on playing off of Jordan to get a FG% nearly 50% as it is. Pippen was more exceptional scoring in-transition than anything. Steals by him and MJ is what made that percentage so possible. Kobe Bryant has a 25-ft range and can hit shots at a decent percentage fading away... even blind-folded.

 

[97Bulls]

I love how everything is a benefit of the doubt approach with Pippen. Except when it is a player people are claiming is better than Pippen, it is always a glass-half-empty approach to evaluating that player.

This is why I called you and Glide homers before, 97bulls...

I don't see it as a benifit of the doubt so much as it just putting situations into perspective. And I really don't think you do that. Or at least not when it comes to pippen. Cuz he doesn't meet your criteria of what a great basketball player is.

I jjust find it funny cuz for every excuse you've tried to hold against him, I've refuted. And yet you still keep spewing the same nonsense.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't see it as a benifit of the doubt so much as it just putting situations into perspective. And I really don't think you do that. Or at least not when it comes to pippen. Cuz he doesn't meet your criteria of what a great basketball player is.

I jjust find it funny cuz for every excuse you've tried to hold against him, I've refuted. And yet you still keep spewing the same nonsense.

I have called Pippen great throughout every thread we've had this debate. He just isn't as great as a lot of others (including Kobe and Magic which you've already conceded yourself).

What are these "excuses?" Pippen was not a consistent shooter and not as good range as Kobe, or Magic for that matter. Kobe and Magic have a better post game and better play-making ability with their ball-handling and passing. Kobe is just a flat out lights out shooter and could do it adjusting with defenders draped all over him. He demands a double and triple team in the half-court while Kobe didn't.

These aren't hater remarks. These are simply observations and you can't refute them. Nor are they nonsensical.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Pippen was an outstanding defender but Kobe was outstanding himself before age slowed him down. Magic isn't close to the stopper Pippen was but he could also defend at least 4 positions.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

If you were truly objective, you wouldn't come from the stand-point of 'Kobe shot them out of games.' You would instead say 'Kobe gave them a chance to win games they had no business being in when nothing else was working.'

Kobe was a guy who could have averaged nearly 40 points per-game without a fellow superstar like Shaq or Gasol later on. And he could have done it at a very respectable percentage. Pippen could never dream of being that kind of number one scoring option.

 

[97Bulls]

Your logic just wouldn't carry over and hold true. Do you really think Pippen could have played in Kobe's exact same role and still shot anywhere near his percentage or scored anywhere near the same amount of points?

Kobe Bryant was asked to bail out the offense whenever it struggled and/or whenever they went up against a dominant defense. Pippen had a very inconsistent jump-shot and could not adjust his shot very well. Pippen depended on playing off of Jordan to get a FG% nearly 50% as it is. Pippen was more exceptional scoring in-transition than anything. Steals by him and MJ is what made that percentage so possible. Kobe Bryant has a 25-ft range and can hit shots at a decent percentage fading away... even blind-folded.

No. That's not pippens game. He's not gonna get you 30 a night. But he never really tried.

I do feel that pippen could do just as well in kobes shoes. But playing his game, not kobes.

I also don't see why you say the lakers didn't have a good team before gasol came. Bynum was avg about 18 ppg on a high% (even though he did get injured right before gasol came). Odom was one of the leagues leading rebounders. Fisher was steady, vlad rad was a solid 6th man. The rest of the bench, walton, sasha, and farmar was comming along. What wa wrong with their team? It was solid.

 

[97Bulls]

If you were truly objective, you wouldn't come from the stand-point of 'Kobe shot them out of games.' You would instead say 'Kobe gave them a chance to win games they had no business being in when nothing else was working.'

Kobe was a guy who could have averaged nearly 40 points per-game without a fellow superstar like Shaq or Gasol later on. And he could have done it at a very respectable percentage. Pippen could never dream of being that kind of number one scoring option.

Wasn't pippens game rami.

 

[houheffna]

I feel he could do what magic did in the sense that he filled the stat sheet like magic. I can't rank him top 10 cuz he doesn't have any mvps or dpoys. I feel he was capable but it just the luck of the draw.

And when you say pippen isn't capable, what do you mean? In what way?

So could Jason Kidd...he ain't Magic Johnson. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Pippen could run the point like Kidd did either. But to compare Pippen to Magic is asinine. Magic is top 5 in league history...people complained because Pippen was in the top 50!

Find players on Pippen's level to compare him to. Magic and Kobe are not in the same conversation with Pippen. Those were number 1s, who took over that role even while playing with hall of fame players. Pippen is incapable of doing what they did.

 

[houheffna]

No. That's not pippens game. He's not gonna get you 30 a night. But he never really tried.

I do feel that pippen could do just as well in kobes shoes. But playing his game, not kobes.

I also don't see why you say the lakers didn't have a good team before gasol came. Bynum was avg about 18 ppg on a high% (even though he did get injured right before gasol came). Odom was one of the leagues leading rebounders. Fisher was steady, vlad rad was a solid 6th man. The rest of the bench, walton, sasha, and farmar was comming along. What wa wrong with their team? It was solid.

LOL...Pippen couldn't have won a championship with Kobe's team if he couldn't do what Kobe did. Kobe could carry a team offensively. That is the difference. Kobe at his best was a great defender and an even greater offensive player. Pippen was never a great scorer, and please don't compare Pippen to Magic Johnson...that is insulting to anybody who watched Magic play.

If Pippen and Kobe were on the same team...who would be the franchise guy and who would be the sidekick? I rest my case...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

No. That's not pippens game. He's not gonna get you 30 a night. But he never really tried.

I do feel that pippen could do just as well in kobes shoes. But playing his game, not kobes.

I also don't see why you say the lakers didn't have a good team before gasol came. Bynum was avg about 18 ppg on a high% (even though he did get injured right before gasol came). Odom was one of the leagues leading rebounders. Fisher was steady, vlad rad was a solid 6th man. The rest of the bench, walton, sasha, and farmar was comming along. What wa wrong with their team? It was solid.

Why are you still arguing on Pippen's behalf? You've already conceded that Kobe and Magic are better players.

Pippen couldn't get you 30 per-night if he did try. That is a fair knock on him relative to Kobe. He didn't demand a double or triple-team. Do you have any idea how much better you can make your teammates when you get that kind of respect from defenses? Pippen was the guy who benefited the most from Jordan being constantly doubled and tripled... and sometimes even quadrupled.

The year before LAL got Gasol, Bynum was a raw talent averaging 10 points in 20 minutes. That team's main roster was Kobe+Smush Parker+Lamar Odom+Luke Walton+Kwame Brown. They still made the playoffs.

The year before that, Bynum rarely played at all and Chris Mihm and Brian Cook were the C+PF. Odom was playing the 3 as a natural 4. And Kobe STILL took the Suns to 7 games. That team was simply horrible and Kobe Bryant carried them down the stretch in a way Pippen could never dream of doing.

If you want to say something like Pippen could have done just as well in Kobe's spot, it is just as sane to say that Kobe could have done just as well in Pippen's spot.

Imagine Kobe in the 90's able to use his body and bump defenders and cause steals and get more easy transition baskets with Jordan as a teammate. It's fair to say Kobe would have averaged nearly 50% from the floor if not higher.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Wasn't pippens game rami.

Because Kobe was a BETTER PLAYER!

 

[97Bulls]

So could Jason Kidd...he ain't Magic Johnson. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Pippen could run the point like Kidd did either. But to compare Pippen to Magic is asinine. Magic is top 5 in league history...people complained because Pippen was in the top 50!

Find players on Pippen's level to compare him to. Magic and Kobe are not in the same conversation with Pippen. Those were number 1s, who took over that role even while playing with hall of fame players. Pippen is incapable of doing what they did.

Is he incapable? Or never had a chance. You know who the led the dream team in assists?Pippen. Magic was on that team. They passed to the same players.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Players like Kidd/Stockton/Wilkens/GP are more on Pippen's level than players like Kobe/Magic. I don't understand why this discussion is taking place.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Is he incapable? Or never had a chance. You know who the led the dream team in assists?Pippen. Magic was on that team. They passed to the same players.

The Dream Team would have won each game by 30+ even if Ewing was leading them in assists. That is a terribly small sample size.

That is like a varsity HS team going to a 12 year old league. Stats are pretty much irrelevant when your team is guaranteed a dominant victory.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Guys like Stockton, Kidd, Mark Jackson, and Magic were amazing playmakers. Hell, I'd say even T-Mac, Anfernee Hardaway, and Grant Hill were noticeably better playmakers than Pippen. Pippen was a very good passer but he wasn't a great passer.

 

[houheffna]

Is he incapable? Or never had a chance. You know who the led the dream team in assists?Pippen. Magic was on that team. They passed to the same players.

You are using exhibition games against Angola to say that Pippen could have duplicated what Magic Johnson did? Are you friggin' kidding me?

You are going to compare what Pippen did against amateurs to what Magic did in the NBA? That is just plain stupid.

Magic was on another level from Pippen, right now you are saying that Pippen playing with Jordan, robbed Pippen of being Magic Johnson...think about that for a minute...let that marinate.

And again I ask, if Pippen is on the same team as Kobe...or Magic...who is the franchise player and who is the sidekick?

And tell me that don't sound like some of the dumbest shit ever spoken about basketball. Jordan taught Pippen HOW TO PLAY BASKETBALL. PIppen maximized his abilities playing with Jordan. Case closed.