Greatest team ever/Greatest bulls team ever

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Perkins didn't replace rambis. Rambis hadn't been a starter on a consistant basis for about 9 years. Not to mention he joined the hornets in the expansion draft of 88.He did replace green, who went to the bench.

Jabaar was a total shell of his former self by 88. Although he was solid in 87. Cooper was irreplaceable though. But the questiion remains, were an old past his prime kareem and cooper enough to sway that championship? Especially considering perkins and divac played well? I doubt it.

Once again, you conveniently ignored that:

a) Magic was far from his prime
b) Kareem was by FAR a better player than both Divac and Perkins
c) Nobody replaced Cooper, who was made the Lakers defense extremely dominant
d) The coaching change

If you seriously can't see the what was so much better about the 1987 Lakers from the 1991 Lakers then you don't know how to evaluate what you were seeing.

 

[97Bulls]

My favorite thing about this message board, particularly this forum, is that if you go against the Bulls you automatically must hate the Bulls or be a fan of another team.

God forbid another team would be better than the 6 Championship teams....

God forbid you think Larry Bird, who with Magic saved the NBA in the 1980's, could be better than St. Scottie....

We all have our opinions on who is the greatest etc. I've always questioned the motives of some of these posters. Especially when they continually try to downplay the contributions of the players that gave blood, sweat, and tears to win.

Now let me ask you prope..... take a look at heffs stance on pippen and bird

He feels bird should be exonerated because he played with a bad back. But pippen, shouldn't even though he too had a bad back. Is this consistant?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

We all have our opinions on who is the greatest etc. I've always questioned the motives of some of these posters. Especially when they continually try to downplay the contributions of the players that gave blood, sweat, and tears to win.

Now let me ask you prope..... take a look at heffs stance on pippen and bird

He feels bird should be exonerated because he played with a bad back. But pippen, shouldn't even though he too had a bad back. Is this consistant?

Here is what I consider to be downplaying "the contributions of players that gave blood, sweat, and tears to win"- sp1994 saying 'Bird and Magic might have been better than Pippen' --- that is probably the best shining example of downplaying in this thread.

Pippen didn't have a bad back until the year 1997.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I only used the head to head stats to show that bird wouldn't "kill" pippen as houheffner put it.

depends on what you consider "killing"

i think bird has a definite advantage though..there is also a definite difference in my opinion(stated above) and your opinion saying pippen and bird are statistically equivalent(ironically that is reliant on factual evidence)

And make no mistake, pippen was very much in his prime from 92-98. He was 5th in mvp voting in 96. Probably would've been higher if his teammate (jordan) hadn't won it. He was runner up for the dpoy award in 95. And 3rd in mvp voting in 94.

for the sake of the specifications listed for this argument, lets look mainly at the 95-96 season

scottie partly got a lot of credit after 95...for

A.overall team success

B.his great D which was still prevalent until he left the bulls

his offensive production took a slight dip once jordan came back..that can be attested to jordan himself a bit..but surely the reasons for the change in offensive production is much more connected to scottie himself than anything else(scottie was around 30 or 31...so he had slightly peaked..not to mention there is a discrepancy between scottie's numbers in the first three peat and the second..and both of those had jordan)

(i'd have to look at some of the guys that pippen was in front of on the voting...if you can supply a link or something that'd be nice)

The problem is that the stats in the 90s just aren't gonna be the same when compared to stats in the 80s. For example, the avg team in 86, took about 700 more shots than the avg team in 96. 20 ppg would put you in the top. 20 in 96. 20 ppg wouldn't put you in the top 40 back in the 80s. Is that fantasy? No its math.

of course they arent thats part of the difficulty in comparing the two teams(not to mention im slightly skeptical on the validity of those stats you brought up...i guess i should look up specifically for those two seasons the difference in offenses...)

but do you think that pippen overall, much less in 96, would be statistically equivalent in a "vacuum" against bird(especially when he was healthy in 86 and playing with 4(or was it 5) hall of famers?)

I brought up the lakers to show an example of a team that beat them 2 out of 3 time they played each other in the finals. And the lakers didn't have a big defensive frontline or any real juggernaut defenders like the bulls. And to be honest, the lakers should've won all three of the finals they played vs the celtics. They had a great chance to take a commanding 3-1 series lead in the 84 finals. When they shot themselves in the foot an magic missed 2 fts that would've iced the game. It gave him the nickname "tragic johnson".

the bulls had rodman and the rest of their frontcourt was pretty good with kukoc and others but what made the team defensively a juggernaut was pippen,rodman, and jordan...obviously not solely those 3 but they were the main reason

the lakers had kareem abdul jabbar(you talk about size) who even in his later years was still a great defender in the paint not to mention he's freaking kareem abdul jabbar..the supporting cast was nothing special but had some good players nontheless

look,again, have to reiterate the fluctuation between seasons due to injuries, moving players,etc...85-86 was that celts team peak when they had a fantastic nucleus..the talent was incredible and the product on the court was pretty damn good

i wouldnt say i completely dismiss what didnt happen in 85-86..but what happened in the season in question is much more relevant..and i have already stated that the lakers didnt even make the finals that year nor even won a game against boston in the regular season

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

but honestly, the larry bird-pippen argument(i guess from a little more direct view and actually considering who those players are and specifically who they were the year in question) will really not have alot of supporters other than a few of the bulls fans around here

doesnt mean you're approach or argument is wrong..but i think you're looking at a comparison and pushing your luck a little by grasping with straws and "cherry picking" stats in the sense of determining how pippen in 96 would do against bird in 86 from head to head matchups in the late 80s

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Prope, did DCguy really say what is in your sig? If so, LOL!

Yes he did. I can't recall the thread, but it was probably a 900 poster in which it was argued that Scottie Pippen is the 2nd coming of Muhammad.

It was from the 1994 Bulls vs 2011 Bulls thread. You'll remember it as you, Hou, and myself thoroughly destroying the Bulls forum trolls. Code Blue was in there as well, doing what Code Blue does....

Mysteriously, the post in question has been deleted.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Scottie Pippen doesn't even think Scottie Pippen is better than Larry Bird.

 

[97Bulls]

Once again, you conveniently ignored that:

a) Magic was far from his prime
magic was not far from his prime. I've already addressed this. He was second to jordan in the mvp race, avg 19/7/13 and was 31 years old.

b) Kareem was by FAR a better player than both Divac and Perkins
by 87, kareem was not far better than sam perkins. Was he better? Yes. But not far better.


c) Nobody replaced Cooper, who was made the Lakers defense extremely dominant
this is true. But since cooper would be playing jordan, id still think his contribution would be minimized. Although cooper would give jordan problems.

d) The coaching change
the coaching change is overrated. Yes dunleavy deviated a bit from the fast break offense but the lakers still ran it. Plus, by 91, the league had begun to go away from trying to outscore each other and concentrate more on the defensive side of the ball. Especially after watching what detroit was doing to the league

If you seriously can't see the what was so much better about the 1987 Lakers from the 1991 Lakers then you don't know how to evaluate what you were seeing.

That's the point rami, I saw the 87 lakers. I saw the 91 bulls. You wernt born in 87 or were an infant. And were probably no older than 4-5 in 91 if that.

Its like me trying to argue with my father about how life was in the 60s cuz I read about it in history books.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

It was from the 1994 Bulls vs 2011 Bulls thread. You'll remember it as you, Hou, and myself thoroughly destroying the Bulls forum trolls. Code Blue was in there as well, doing what Code Blue does....

Mysteriously, the post in question has been deleted.

:yeah:

and prope is right i remember that dc said and there was some uproar

i pointed it out recently to dc and he backtracked a little saying he was playing "devil advocate"...cant say for sure he's lying..but i'm not convinced that his statement didnt reflect a bit of his own thinking

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

:yeah:

and prope is right i remember that dc said and there was some uproar

i pointed it out recently to dc and he backtracked a little saying he was playing "devil advocate"...cant say for sure he's lying..but i'm not convinced that his statement didnt reflect a bit of his own thinking

It was the worst day in the history of the internet.

 

[97Bulls]

depends on what you consider "killing"

i think bird has a definite advantage though..there is also a definite difference in my opinion(stated above) and your opinion saying pippen and bird are statistically equivalent(ironically that is reliant on factual evidence)



for the sake of the specifications listed for this argument, lets look mainly at the 95-96 season

scottie partly got a lot of credit after 95...for

A.overall team success

B.his great D which was still prevalent until he left the bulls

his offensive production took a slight dip once jordan came back..that can be attested to jordan himself a bit..but surely the reasons for the change in offensive production is much more connected to scottie himself than anything else(scottie was around 30 or 31...so he had slightly peaked..not to mention there is a discrepancy between scottie's numbers in the first three peat and the second..and both of those had jordan)

(i'd have to look at some of the guys that pippen was in front of on the voting...if you can supply a link or something that'd be nice)



of course they arent thats part of the difficulty in comparing the two teams(not to mention im slightly skeptical on the validity of those stats you brought up...i guess i should look up specifically for those two seasons the difference in offenses...)

but do you think that pippen overall, much less in 96, would be statistically equivalent in a "vacuum" against bird(especially when he was healthy in 86 and playing with 4(or was it 5) hall of famers?)



the bulls had rodman and the rest of their frontcourt was pretty good with kukoc and others but what made the team defensively a juggernaut was pippen,rodman, and jordan...obviously not solely those 3 but they were the main reason

the lakers had kareem abdul jabbar(you talk about size) who even in his later years was still a great defender in the paint not to mention he's freaking kareem abdul jabbar..the supporting cast was nothing special but had some good players nontheless

look,again, have to reiterate the fluctuation between seasons due to injuries, moving players,etc...85-86 was that celts team peak when they had a fantastic nucleus..the talent was incredible and the product on the court was pretty damn good

i wouldnt say i completely dismiss what didnt happen in 85-86..but what happened in the season in question is much more relevant..and i have already stated that the lakers didnt even make the finals that year nor even won a game against boston in the regular season

Scottie Pippen vs. | Basketball-Reference.com

1985-86 NBA Season Summary | Basketball-Reference.com

1995-96 NBA Season Summary | Basketball-Reference.com

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

97Bulls-
what you said about Perkins being almost as good as Kareem is absolutely false. It wasn't even close. Kareem was the stabilizing force of the Lakers with his offense and defense despite being 39 years-old. Perkins is NOWHERE NEAR KAREEM! That is a joke.

Magic was nowhere near his prime in 1991. His numbers were impressive simply because he was still a great, great player. He just wasn't as great as before and lacked some explosiveness. Look at the dip in his points, and FG%.

Don't undervalue the 30+ mins Cooper threw in per-game back in his day with L.A. The Lakers defense was never the same after he and Kareem left. And their offense was never the same once Riley and Kareem left.

Pat Riley was a much better coach than Dunleavy was. I've always said that Riley was overrated as a coach but Dunleavy never gets the most out of his players.

And I've spent weeks and months of my life watching basketball games, highlights, reading people's accounts, looking up stats... I'm absolutely dedicated to basketball. Are you telling me that a 23 year-old man can't possibly know more about 60s/70s/80s/90s basketball than even a 60 year-old life-long fan? I find that completely insulting.

 

[97Bulls]

but honestly, the larry bird-pippen argument(i guess from a little more direct view and actually considering who those players are and specifically who they were the year in question) will really not have alot of supporters other than a few of the bulls fans around here

doesnt mean you're approach or argument is wrong..but i think you're looking at a comparison and pushing your luck a little by grasping with straws and "cherry picking" stats in the sense of determining how pippen in 96 would do against bird in 86 from head to head matchups in the late 80s

I don't think my approach is wrong. Scottie Pippen is regarded as at worst the 3rd-5th best small forward ever. He was the best SF of the 90s, and is arguably the greatest defender ever from the perimeter.


Bird is arguably the best SF ever. And is the best SF ever arguably.

And when they played vs each other, the outcome statically was very even considering that pippen played almost a quarter less than bird on average.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Plenty of people believe that Larry Bird, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkens, Elgin Baylor, Grant Hill, and John Havlicek were all better than Scottie Pippen at small forward. Pippen comes before at least a few of those guys in my opinion. The thing about it is he really couldn't take over the game with his scoring the way a first option scorer needs to be able to do. Offensively- he was no better than a second man. Houheffna is right to say that both Jordan and Kukoc are better players to draw up a play for with the game on the line.

 

[97Bulls]

97Bulls-
what you said about Perkins being almost as good as Kareem is absolutely false. It wasn't even close. Kareem was the stabilizing force of the Lakers with his offense and defense despite being 39 years-old. Perkins is NOWHERE NEAR KAREEM! That is a joke.
I think your mistaking old kareem for early 80s/70s kareem. Both were good centers. Was jabaar better? Sure. But to the tune of nowhere near? No

Magic was nowhere near his prime in 1991. His numbers were impressive simply because he was still a great, great player. He just wasn't as great as before and lacked some explosiveness. Look at the dip in his points, and FG%.
You don't know what your talking about with this one rami. Magic was the mvp in 90 (the previous year) and came in second in 91 behind jordan. His fg% went down cuz he began taking more threes and due to dunleavy limiting their fastbreak offense which cut down on the easy transition buckets.

Don't undervalue the 30+ mins Cooper threw in per-game back in his day with L.A. The Lakers defense was never the same after he and Kareem left. And their offense was never the same once Riley and Kareem left.
I'm not undervalueing coop. I said his contribution was irreplaceable. What more do you want me to say?

Pat Riley was a much better coach than Dunleavy was. I've always said that Riley was overrated as a coach but Dunleavy never gets the most out of his players.

And I've spent weeks and months of my life watching basketball games, highlights, reading people's accounts, looking up stats... I'm absolutely dedicated to basketball. Are you telling me that a 23 year-old man can't possibly know more about 60s/70s/80s/90s basketball than even a 60 year-old life-long fan? I find that completely insulting.

I'm telling you no amount of reading and clips and youtube watching will replace actually living it. Hell I have a hard time trying to remember certain things that happened 20 years ago and I was 17. Even watching some of these classic games on nba tv. It jogs my memory. Like the fact that in the 96 finals, george karl put gary payton on scottie pippen. And had detlef shrempf and hawkins defending jordan.

I'm watching the lakers/mavericks series from 88 and I'm just amazed at how many easy transition buckets each team got. I just find it hard to believe you can have an honest opinion about stuff you didn't live through.

 

[97Bulls]

Plenty of people believe that Larry Bird, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkens, Elgin Baylor, Grant Hill, and John Havlicek were all better than Scottie Pippen at small forward. Pippen comes before at least a few of those guys in my opinion. The thing about it is he really couldn't take over the game with his scoring the way a first option scorer needs to be able to do. Offensively- he was no better than a second man. Houheffna is right to say that both Jordan and Kukoc are better players to draw up a play for with the game on the line.

Bird, Erving, and are the only players that pippen really doesn't have an argument over. Id be hard pressed picking pippen over havlicek based on what he accomplished. James is on his way. But if he wins a few championships, he jumps bird too. Baylor, Wilkins and Hill have no legit argument over pippen.

Im not gonna go back into the takeover games argument again with you rami. No amount of facts, quotes and examples will change your mind so why bring it up? The same goes for that play in 94

And there's no player in the history of basketball that id choose over jordan to take a last shot. So that's not saying much.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

People undervalue the ability of certain players to give their teams extra dimension(s) on the basketball floor. That really is the thing that separates stars from superstars. Jordan possessed the best finishing ability that complemented his more than fundamentally perfected game. Shaq possessed the ability to score in the low-post at will. The only thing that kept him from being the best offensive player in NBA history was his terrible free throw shooting. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar had a nearly automatic skyhook. They had to change the NCAA rules to ban dunking just to keep him from dominating every game at will. At age 39, he still possessed a nearly flawless option in the low-post to score. The 1991 Lakers lacked that extra dimension on offense. LeBron James is way better than Scottie Pippen every will be because he is a dominant scorer in the league while Pippen wasn't. The small difference between LeBron and Scottie doesn't make up for the vast differences between them offensively. LeBron was the dominant player on that side of the ball; he did everything much better than Pippen except low-post scoring (and Pippen was no Shaq/Kareem/Hakeem or even Jordan down there to say the least either).

Sure, we argue and refuse to agree on things but I think people need to understand that this isn't Bulls bashing here. I would take the 1996 Bulls over the 1987 Lakers but I really don't think the 1991 Bulls or '92 Bulls could beat the '86 Celtics or '87 Lakers. That 1992 Bulls team was not nearly as good on defense and wasn't as good offensively (but was close) to the Lakers. The 1996 Bulls were a much more versatile offensive team (though not quite as prolific as the earlier Bulls team, but were MUCH better rebounding and considerably a better defensive team than the '87 Lakers.

 

[houheffna]

Once again, you conveniently ignored that:

a) Magic was far from his prime
b) Kareem was by FAR a better player than both Divac and Perkins
c) Nobody replaced Cooper, who was made the Lakers defense extremely dominant
d) The coaching change

If you seriously can't see the what was so much better about the 1987 Lakers from the 1991 Lakers then you don't know how to evaluate what you were seeing.

I disagree that Magic was far from his prime...Magic was the best pg in the league in 1991...Isiah was more on decline than Magic. But the team around him was not what it once was.

 

[houheffna]

How is it not the same? They both had to have back surgery. What the ****? You don't remember pippen limping in game 6 in 98? You say bird couldn't sit, well pippen couldn't walk straight. He couldn't even stand up straight. And he was older. But either way, both injuries were severe. And while both healed, neither never really regained the athleticism that's needed to play at a higher level. The difference is that in your point of view, pippen should've been able to overcome his transgression even at an older age.

And who gives a shit about being the best player or the man? Without bird, the celtics don't win, without pippen the bulls don't win. If bird was on the bulls he would've been a sidekick too. Who gives a shit about the hierarchy of a loosing team?

And why do you continue to say pippen didn't come through in the clutch when I've clearly shown instances in which he did. Does he have to come through every single time? That's dumb to even think that. Noone has. Not magic, not wilt, not barkley, not jordan, not bird, not even russell. Or pippen. But for some reason, pippen is supposed to be able to come through every time in every situation? Is this realistic? The bird led celtics have lost 3 times with homecourt advantage. Why didn't bird come through in the clutch those times? Magic and the lakers, lost to a 38 win team in the playoffs. As well as loosing when they were the favorites.

How many games has magic taken over offensively? His biggest playoff game came in his rookie year. And his other notable game came when he hit that shot vs the celtics.

I'm sure you feel clyde drexler was better than pippen. Why didn't he fiinish off the bulls in game 6 of the 92 finals when they were up 16 pts going into the 4th quarter?

This isn't a disagreement about whether or not pippen was great. This is me pointing out the multiple inconsistancies you have concerning pippen. And thus why I question you.

"I'm sure you feel Clyde Drexler was better than Pippen..." Try asking next time...don't put words in my mouth. But I will say this...Drexler was a number 1 in his prime, your boy was a number 2 guy. And he was taught to be good enough to be a number 2 guy because of Michael Jordan. Working with Jordan, and Pippen's hard work made him the great player he was.

Bird's injuries were much more debilitating...and again, you bring up one game...I brought up the whole Knicks series in 1994...The Bulls were up double digits in games 1 and 2 in New York and the Knicks came back and won both games. Why? Because the Bulls didn't have a closer. Do you know what a closer is? By game 3, Phil Jackson decided that guy should be Kukoc. Game 5? B.J. Armstrong. The team looked in other directions. The fact that there was a debate shows that Pippen couldn't do the job.

As for the definition of clutch...like everything else, you question the intelligence of every Bulls fan, critic, journalist etc. that disagrees with your unfounded bias opinions.

They defined clutch for one reason...to quiet down people like you. Who look at stat sheets and says...Pippen was a clutch player...but you don't look at the closing minutes of games, and who was responsible for handling those situations. It wasn't Pippen, especially with Jordan there. There is a big difference between Pippen and Carmelo...Carmelo could close...Pippen couldn't. That is why people love Kobe, Dirk, etc. Do I think Pippen could do what they did to close out playoff series? HELL NO! I watched his whole career. He wasn't the second best closer on his team. I can name half a dozen guys on those teams that I would rather take the last shot than Pippen. With the exception of Jordan, none of those were great players, they were better at closing than Pippen was.

So the last 5 minutes of a game is considered clutch play...in every game under certain circumstances. That was decided by 82games.com, a website, not a "guy". It was decided by people who know the game a lot better than you do. Matter of face, they are referenced on basketball reference often. Next time you are on basketball reference to look up more of Pippen's stats to distort...double click the link...

 

[houheffna]

We all have our opinions on who is the greatest etc. I've always questioned the motives of some of these posters. Especially when they continually try to downplay the contributions of the players that gave blood, sweat, and tears to win.

Now let me ask you prope..... take a look at heffs stance on pippen and bird

He feels bird should be exonerated because he played with a bad back. But pippen, shouldn't even though he too had a bad back. Is this consistant?

Good grief...I pointed out numerous...numerous times that Pippen folded under pressure. It had nothing to do with his back. That was just one example. And Pippen played ALL 82 GAMES in 2000 and every game in the playoffs. His not being able to lead a closeout on the road had nothing to do with his back...in 1998, they didn't need Pippen to close the game...Jordan and Kukoc were on the floor. You even blamed his migraine on his father's death, when I pointed out that his father's death was WEEKS BEFORE and he had played and played well subsequent to his father's death in the playoffs...no answer.

My god are you on Pippen's payroll? If so, the minimum wage he is paying you is not worth it...