Greatest team ever/Greatest bulls team ever

[houheffna]

Scottie Pippen doesn't even think Scottie Pippen is better than Larry Bird.

Nor does he think he was better than Barkley or Lebron...believe that...lol

 

[houheffna]

I'm telling you no amount of reading and clips and youtube watching will replace actually living it. Hell I have a hard time trying to remember certain things that happened 20 years ago and I was 17. Even watching some of these classic games on nba tv. It jogs my memory. Like the fact that in the 96 finals, george karl put gary payton on scottie pippen. And had detlef shrempf and hawkins defending jordan.

I'm watching the lakers/mavericks series from 88 and I'm just amazed at how many easy transition buckets each team got. I just find it hard to believe you can have an honest opinion about stuff you didn't live through.

Self-indictment...you "lived through it" but you don't remember shit. My point exactly...

Wait until you see an old Charles Barkley game from the late 1980's...oh joy...

 

[houheffna]

Bird, Erving, and are the only players that pippen really doesn't have an argument over. Id be hard pressed picking pippen over havlicek based on what he accomplished. James is on his way. But if he wins a few championships, he jumps bird too. Baylor, Wilkins and Hill have no legit argument over pippen.

Im not gonna go back into the takeover games argument again with you rami. No amount of facts, quotes and examples will change your mind so why bring it up? The same goes for that play in 94

And there's no player in the history of basketball that id choose over jordan to take a last shot. So that's not saying much.

You mean to tell me that Elgin Baylor and Dominique don't have a legit argument? You are a hypocrite...why speak on Baylor...he retired BEFORE YOU WERE BORN!!! How do you know how good Baylor and Havlicek were? You didn't see them...why comment at all?

Dominique was one of the top 5 perimeter scorers the league has seen over the last 25 years. Offensively, he was a much, much better player than Pippen. And Baylor? Was the premiere small forward of a generation. Are you joking?

Elgin Baylor NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

Wow man...not good...

 

[97Bulls]

"I'm sure you feel Clyde Drexler was better than Pippen..." Try asking next time...don't put words in my mouth. But I will say this...Drexler was a number 1 in his prime, your boy was a number 2 guy. And he was taught to be good enough to be a number 2 guy because of Michael Jordan. Working with Jordan, and Pippen's hard work made him the great player he was.
Lol clyde drexler would've been a second guy to jordan too. So your not saying much.

Bird's injuries were much more debilitating...and again, you bring up one game...I brought up the whole Knicks series in 1994...The Bulls were up double digits in games 1 and 2 in New York and the Knicks came back and won both games. Why? Because the Bulls didn't have a closer. Do you know what a closer is? By game 3, Phil Jackson decided that guy should be Kukoc. Game 5? B.J. Armstrong. The team looked in other directions. The fact that there was a debate shows that Pippen couldn't do the job.
are we talking about one shot? Or the fourth quarter? Last five minutes? What? I don't remember bj armstrong being a go to guy..

As for the definition of clutch...like everything else, you question the intelligence of every Bulls fan, critic, journalist etc. that disagrees with your unfounded bias opinions.
I don't questiion anyone intelligence. I may disagree. But so do you. In the short time we've had this conversation in this forum, you've quoted or referred to sam smith, skip bayless, and 82 games. I've referred to michael jordan, bob knight, chuck daly, phil jackson. To name a few

They defined clutch for one reason...to quiet down people like you. Who look at stat sheets and says...Pippen was a clutch player...but you don't look at the closing minutes of games, and who was responsible for handling those situations. It wasn't Pippen, especially with Jordan there. There is a big difference between Pippen and Carmelo...Carmelo could close...Pippen couldn't. That is why people love Kobe, Dirk, etc. Do I think Pippen could do what they did to close out playoff series? HELL NO! I watched his whole career. He wasn't the second best closer on his team. I can name half a dozen guys on those teams that I would rather take the last shot than Pippen. With the exception of Jordan, none of those were great players, they were better at closing than Pippen was.
lol come on, steve kerr, john paxson, craig hodges, toni kukoc all have one key thing in common over pippen.... they were better JUMPSHOOTERS. It has nothing to do with being clutch or lack there off. And understand I'm not arguing that showing up late in a close game isn't cluch. But I do feel that isn't the soul definition of being clutch. Being clutch is a situational thing. And in certain situations, pippen has shown himself to be clutch.

So the last 5 minutes of a game is considered clutch play...in every game under certain circumstances. That was decided by 82games.com, a website, not a "guy". It was decided by people who know the game a lot better than you do. Matter of face, they are referenced on basketball reference often. Next time you are on basketball reference to look up more of Pippen's stats to distort...double click the link...

I think we should make a thread asking what a persons definition of clutch is. And let me ask you heff.... is the definition of clutch as used by 82 games the only definittion of being clutch? Or is it the only way to put it in stat form?

 

[97Bulls]

Good grief...I pointed out numerous...numerous times that Pippen folded under pressure. It had nothing to do with his back. That was just one example. And Pippen played ALL 82 GAMES in 2000 and every game in the playoffs. His not being able to lead a closeout on the road had nothing to do with his back...in 1998, they didn't need Pippen to close the game...Jordan and Kukoc were on the floor. You even blamed his migraine on his father's death, when I pointed out that his father's death was WEEKS BEFORE and he had played and played well subsequent to his father's death in the playoffs...no answer.

My god are you on Pippen's payroll? If so, the minimum wage he is paying you is not worth it...

Pippen was old heff. He was past him prime with the blazers. The leadership he provided was more that of a veteran, not as the best player on the team. The best players on that team were rasheed wallace and steve smith.

And who the **** are you to determine when someone should be over the death of a loved one? This is the same respone I gave the last time you brought it up.

 

[97Bulls]

Nor does he think he was better than Barkley or Lebron...believe that...lol

Barkley no. Lebron, not right now. But I also said lebron is well on his way to being the best SF ever.

 

[97Bulls]

You mean to tell me that Elgin Baylor and Dominique don't have a legit argument? You are a hypocrite...why speak on Baylor...he retired BEFORE YOU WERE BORN!!! How do you know how good Baylor and Havlicek were? You didn't see them...why comment at all?

Dominique was one of the top 5 perimeter scorers the league has seen over the last 25 years. Offensively, he was a much, much better player than Pippen. And Baylor? Was the premiere small forward of a generation. Are you joking?

Elgin Baylor NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

Wow man...not good...

There's more to basketball than just scoring.

And if you'd go back and reread my post, I said based on what they "accomplished". That's something we all can look up.

Every time we converse I have to check you on reading comprehension.

 

[houheffna]

There's more to basketball than just scoring.

And if you'd go back and reread my post, I said based on what they "accomplished". That's something we all can look up.

Every time we converse I have to check you on reading comprehension.

Pippen accomplished what he did because he played with Jordan...lets not fool ourselves...

Now if you want to look at individual accolades, they both accomplished a lot...but Baylor dominated a while decade...he was top 5 in MVP voting every year from 1959-69...but then again you shouldn't comment on Baylor because you don't know what he did...you were not around...right?

But Kobe Bryant, EVEN TODAY, studies film of Elgin Baylor. I guess he couldn't tell you much either because he is just a bit younger than me. Give me a break. You go after young guys for not seeing what you saw...then you talk about how there is no legit argument of a player who played 50 years ago being better than Pippen.

You REALLY wouldn't know that now would you?

 

[houheffna]

Barkley no. Lebron, not right now. But I also said lebron is well on his way to being the best SF ever.

Pippen said Lebron could be the greatest ever, he recanted because of the heat he took after saying it. I think if Pippen is putting Lebron in the conversation with Jordan, he has Lebron above himself...common sense right there...

Right now, I take Lebron over Pippen...BOTH are great players, but Lebron in his career would win 2 MVPs. Pippen never did that. You guys who talk about Lebron having to win championships to be better than Pippen make me laugh...Pippen is in his rear-view mirror. He is simply a better player...and Pippen knows that. I wish Pip would email you and tell you so you can stop the madness...

 

[97Bulls]

Also heff, since your enamored with 82 games definition of clutch stats, I decided to take a look at how pippen compares to the best players today. Now this was pippen at 38 years old and in his final season vs players in their prime.

Pippen 40% at 38

The best players in 2011

Kobe Bryant 40%
Derrick Rose 40%
Lebron James 44%
Kevin Durant 41%
Dirk Nowitzki 46%
Dwayne Wade 39%

Not bad for a 38 year old unclutch player with a bad back

 

[houheffna]

I think we should make a thread asking what a persons definition of clutch is. And let me ask you heff.... is the definition of clutch as used by 82 games the only definittion of being clutch? Or is it the only way to put it in stat form?

What they mean by clutch is a more acceptable meaning. Clutch is the last minutes of a game...Its why they call Montana clutch, why they call Jordan clutch, why they called Jerry West "Mr. Clutch", Elway...across the sports...the guy that can take the ball and score in the deciding moments of a game.

Clutch really doesn't have as much to do with who hit a free throw in the first quarter...its who can hit a free throw with no time left on the clock. Can you hit a big three to close out a big game. That doesn't mean you are not a great player, that is ONE attribute. But its a very important attribute for a franchise player to have.

 

[nwfisch]

Also heff, since your enamored with 82 games definition of clutch stats, I decided to take a look at how pippen compares to the best players today. Now this was pippen at 38 years old and in his final season vs players in their prime.

Pippen 40% at 38

The best players in 2011

Kobe Bryant 40%
Derrick Rose 40%
Lebron James 44%
Kevin Durant 41%
Dirk Nowitzki 46%
Dwayne Wade 39%

Not bad for a 38 year old unclutch player with a bad back

That's inside shooting precentage Scottie Pippen of the Chicago Bulls, clutch NBA player stats and data from 82games.com

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen said Lebron could be the greatest ever, he recanted because of the heat he took after saying it. I think if Pippen is putting Lebron in the conversation with Jordan, he has Lebron above himself...common sense right there...

Right now, I take Lebron over Pippen...BOTH are great players, but Lebron in his career would win 2 MVPs. Pippen never did that. You guys who talk about Lebron having to win championships to be better than Pippen make me laugh...Pippen is in his rear-view mirror. He is simply a better player...and Pippen knows that. I wish Pip would email you and tell you so you can stop the madness...

I honestly don't think he needs to win a championship to determine his rankings. But he's stunk it up pretty bad in the 2 he's been in. If he continues to not produce, that's gonna hurt him

I agree about the mvps. But its hard to win mvps playing alongside the greatest ever. And I don't feel mvps should be the end all to be all either.

Truth is, the mvp is a team accomplishment awarded to the best player on the top 3 teams. If derrick rose produces in the exact same way but the bull win 45 games, he's nowhere near an mvp.

 

[houheffna]

Also heff, since your enamored with 82 games definition of clutch stats, I decided to take a look at how pippen compares to the best players today. Now this was pippen at 38 years old and in his final season vs players in their prime.

Pippen 40% at 38

The best players in 2011

Kobe Bryant 40%
Derrick Rose 40%
Lebron James 44%
Kevin Durant 41%
Dirk Nowitzki 46%
Dwayne Wade 39%

Not bad for a 38 year old unclutch player with a bad back

Lol...that doesn't prove much of anything over his career...but let me ask you...who would you rather take the last shot?

Kobe, Rose, Lebron, Durant, Dirk, Wade, or Pippen...in their primes...who do you think could manufacture a shot, or get fouled and hit their free throws (Pippen was the worst foul shooter of the bunch...).

 

[97Bulls]

That's inside shooting precentage Scottie Pippen of the Chicago Bulls, clutch NBA player stats and data from 82games.com

No..... that's shooting percentage overall

 

[houheffna]

I honestly don't think he needs to win a championship to determine his rankings. But he's stunk it up pretty bad in the 2 he's been in. If he continues to not produce, that's gonna hurt him

I agree about the mvps. But its hard to win mvps playing alongside the greatest ever. And I don't feel mvps should be the end all to be all either.

Truth is, the mvp is a team accomplishment awarded to the best player on the top 3 teams. If derrick rose produces in the exact same way but the bull win 45 games, he's nowhere near an mvp.

But you brought up MVP voting to stake a claim to Pippen's greatness during the 1990's, and then stated that Jordan didn't do as well with that Bulls team as Pippen did...which is a claim that is unfounded and ludicrous. So which is it.

MVP is an individual award...not a team award by the way.

And did you just poo-poo away Elgin's rebounding numbers?

 

[nwfisch]

No..... that's shooting percentage overall

He allowed 20 more points than he was on the floor for that scored! Pippen may have had a nice 23 games which those "clutch stats" are being accounted for.

Nevertheless, why do you constantly feel the need to defend Pippen here?

 

[ech1997]

The 1996 team, HANDS DOWN was the best EVER. 72 wins? Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman...all Hall-of-Famers. This team was SO dominant that I remember the consensus among my buddies (at LSU, not local homers), in, like, December, was, "They should just stop the season and hand the title to the Bulls now."

They just BLASTED everyone. Shaq and the Magic? Swept! Seattle? I think they dropped those two games after going up 3-0 on purpose just to set up the Father's Day win (not really...but the seemed to be THAt good).

That Bulls team rivaled the '87 Lakers or the '84 Celtics.

 

[97Bulls]

Lol...that doesn't prove much of anything over his career...but let me ask you...who would you rather take the last shot?

Kobe, Rose, Lebron, Durant, Dirk, Wade, or Pippen...in their primes...who do you think could manufacture a shot, or get fouled and hit their free throws (Pippen was the worst foul shooter of the bunch...).

A website created by people you assess as basketball scholarls and referred me to says id have just as good a shot at winning with a 38 year old pippen as I do vs the best players in todays league. Most of whom are in their prime.

And yes pippen was the worse foul shooter, but for some reason come playoff time, his FT% improved. Maybe he was clutch.

But to answer your question, id probably go with dirk

 

[97Bulls]

He allowed 20 more points than he was on the floor for that scored! Pippen may have had a nice 23 games which those "clutch stats" are being accounted for.

Nevertheless, why do you constantly feel the need to defend Pippen here?

This was pippen at 38. Come on. I'm sure if he was 27-30 all those stats would be a lot higher.

And its not so much defending as it is dispelling untruths.