Greatest team ever/Greatest bulls team ever

[97Bulls]

But you brought up MVP voting to stake a claim to Pippen's greatness during the 1990's, and then stated that Jordan didn't do as well with that Bulls team as Pippen did...which is a claim that is unfounded and ludicrous. So which is it.

MVP is an individual award...not a team award by the way.

And did you just poo-poo away Elgin's rebounding numbers?

The jordan/pippen reference is very much founded. Go back and compare the teams.

The 98 bulls were on pace to win 52 games without pippen

Their rosters were

98
Jordan
Kukoc who had 4 years under his belt.
Rodman who was the leagues leading rebounder and still a solid defender
Scott burrell who was pippens replacement, and was better than pete myers
Luc longley who had improved from 94 to 98
Steve Kerr
Harper

94
Pippen
Grant
Kukoc as a rookie
Myers who took jordans place
Longley who was a cast off from the timberwolves
Kerr

The 98 team was better

 

[nwfisch]

This was pippen at 38. Come on. I'm sure if he was 27-30 all those stats would be a lot higher.

And its not so much defending as it is dispelling untruths.

In 23 games...a relatively small sample size.....

 

[97Bulls]

In 23 games...a relatively small sample size.....

So now its sample size? He was 38. With a bad back and knees. That's impressive no matter how you swing it.

 

[97Bulls]

And you ask why am I so determined to defend pippen, why are you. So determined to undermine him? This is supposed to be the second best player on what is our favorite team. Id think you guys would be more willing to come around because of this.

I've had this debate with laker and celtics fans, and they've been much more responsive to thee information I've presented.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And you ask why am I so determined to defend pippen, why are you. So determined to undermine him? This is supposed to be the second best player on what is our favorite team. Id think you guys would be more willing to come around because of this.

I've had this debate with laker and celtics fans, and they've been much more responsive to thee information I've presented.

Most people in this thread seem to have come to the general consensus that the 1996 Bulls were the best team in NBA history- while the 1987 Lakers and 1986 Celtics have a solid case to be made and that series wouldn't be dominated by any of the three teams.

Then there are a bunch of other teams like the early Bulls of 1991-1992, the Philadelphia 76ers of 1983, the L.A. Lakers of 1972, the L.A. Lakers of 2000-2001, and even the Celtics of the 1960's have legitimate cases right behind those three teams.

 

[97Bulls]

Most people in this thread seem to have come to the general consensus that the 1996 Bulls were the best team in NBA history- while the 1987 Lakers and 1986 Celtics have a solid case to be made and that series wouldn't be dominated by any of the three teams.

Then there are a bunch of other teams like the early Bulls of 1991-1992, the Philadelphia 76ers of 1983, the L.A. Lakers of 1972, the L.A. Lakers of 2000-2001, and even the Celtics of the 1960's have legitimate cases right behind those three teams.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I feel your a great poster rami. I'm not trying to discredit your knowledge of basketball history. A lot of stuff you've said did jog my memory.

I apologize for comming off as a know it all.

But your still wrong about pippen lol

 

[scottiepippen1994]

I fucking love this 97bulls guy.
He keeps sticking it to y'all.
Scottie Pippen himself should take this guy out for dinner for sure.
I thought I was Scotties #1 fan.
Keep coming at them 97bulls.
Do not bow to them bro.

 

[97Bulls]

I love this 97bullsfan guy.
He keeps sticking it to y'all.
Scottie Pippen himself should take this guy out for dinner for sure.
I thought I was Scotties #1 fan.
Keep coming at them 97bullsfan.

Thanx SP94. Actually, it was glide2keva and crystallas that refeered me to this site.

And I think your a bigger and more knowledgeable pippen fan than I am.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I don't think my approach is wrong. Scottie Pippen is regarded as at worst the 3rd-5th best small forward ever. He was the best SF of the 90s, and is arguably the greatest defender ever from the perimeter.

1.bird
2.hav
3.baylor
4.lebron
5.erving
6.pippen(i think at highest pippen is 5th)
7.rick barry(who has a serious case for being higher than pippen)

pippen is a fantastic perimeter..the greatest? idk..he WAS versatile although i have said a couple of times i'd take jordan and payton regarding on the ball D...but ya pippen was a great defender

i think i have established why i have pippen 5th or 6th

Bird is arguably the best SF ever. And is the best SF ever arguably.

lol what was the point of making two sentences there?

nvm..not important

but bird is pretty much the best SF ever..you can an argument against it..but not a very good one

And when they played vs each other, the outcome statically was very even considering that pippen played almost a quarter less than bird on average.

first of all that was in the late 80s...secondly they werent statistically even

and they definitely werent even if you consider the years in question

my point being bird>pippen

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Thanx SP94. Actually, it was glide2keva and crystallas that refeered me to this site.

And I think your a bigger and more knowledgeable pippen fan than I am.

I have the 1993-94 Bulls season formatted onto dvd from my vhs recordings.
If your interested, id be happy to burn you a copy of the games.
If your interested private message me.
You seem like you would appreciate it.
Plus its all the proof you need to varify that Pippen was a franchise player, team leader and a top 3 player in the NBA at that time....A very deserving MVP runner up..Hakeem and Pippen were very very close in the voting that year.
Amazing that Pippen could lead that team to 55 wins and 7 game series against the toughest team (Knicks) in the east that season, the very first year Jordan retired.
Experts expected that team to sruggle just to be a 500 team and didn't give them a chance.
Were they wrong or what. They had people screaming 4-peat.
My favorite Bulls season.
Holla back bro.

 

[97Bulls]

1.bird
2.hav
3.baylor
4.lebron
5.erving
6.pippen(i think at highest pippen is 5th)
7.rick barry(who has a serious case for being higher than pippen)

pippen is a fantastic perimeter..the greatest? idk..he WAS versatile although i have said a couple of times i'd take jordan and payton regarding on the ball D...but ya pippen was a great defender

i think i have established why i have pippen 5th or 6th



lol what was the point of making two sentences there?

nvm..not important

but bird is pretty much the best SF ever..you can an argument against it..but not a very good one


first of all that was in the late 80s...secondly they werent statistically even

and they definitely werent even if you consider the years in question

my point being bird>pippen

My argument was never that pippen ranked higher than bird. It was that there was an assumtion that in a head to head matchup, prime bird would kill prime pippen. That's where I draw the line.

And code, they were statisticlly even. Like I said before, that head to head finder only accounts for the years bird played against the bulls while pippen was there. Most of birds 87 and 88 stats vs the bulls were against brad sellers. Pippen was on the team, but played limited minutes. Plus pippen played behind jordan offensively while bird was the number 1 option on the celtics. Its the strongest argument as to why I feel the 86 celtics have a snowballs chance in hell of beating the 96 bulls. Our number 2 guy can match their number 1 guy.

Did you take a look at the links I posted?
If you did, you'd notice that while birds stats are slightly better, he also played 8 minuts more. You don't think pippens stats improve accross the board with an extra 8 minutes? That's almost a whole quarter. Think about that bro.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

My argument was never that pippen ranked higher than bird. It was that there was an assumtion that in a head to head matchup, prime bird would kill prime pippen. That's where I draw the line.

And code, they were statisticlly even. Like I said before, that head to head finder only accounts for the years bird played against the bulls while pippen was there. Most of birds 87 and 88 stats vs the bulls were against brad sellers. Pippen was on the team, but played limited minutes. Plus pippen played behind jordan offensively while bird was the number 1 option on the celtics. Its the strongest argument as to why I feel the 86 celtics have a snowballs chance in hell of beating the 96 bulls. Our number 2 guy can match their number 1 guy.

Did you take a look at the links I posted?
If you did, you'd notice that while birds stats are slightly better, he also played 8 minuts more. You don't think pippens stats improve accross the board with an extra 8 minutes? That's almost a whole quarter. Think about that bro.

you are overexaggerating a bit(8 minutes isnt a quarter)...

A. even with the per minute adjustment they arent exactly equal

B. Bird was injury hampered but still easily better than pippen then..and bird in 85-86 is significantly than pippen in 95-96

C. Again the context and magnitude of the sample size are important..the earliest game they played each other was in 88...

Regular season

14 games

Pippen:
19.5 PPG,4.9 RPG,6.1 APG,2.4 SPG(31.5)
in 39.4 minutes
24.3 PPG,6.1 RPG,7.6 APG,3 SPG
Bird:
25.9 PPG,8.3 RPG,6.1 APG,1.0 SPG(39.4)

the first issue is...that the stats given are a hypothetical(in other words that's really NOT how he performed)

if you're looking at pure stats "adjusted" they are maybe close(still give the edge to bird)

but there are so many factors that poke holes in using this kind of argument(which im sure you understand)

can pippen match up with bird? yes but if you are talking about the years in question? bird wins the matchup easily

that is my point here

my even larger point is that i think the 85-86 celts have a case for being the best team ever

i'd probably put the bulls #1 if i had to choose...but that 85-86 team was incredible talent wise as well as on the court

 

[97Bulls]

you are overexaggerating a bit(8 minutes isnt a quarter)...

A. even with the per minute adjustment they arent exactly equal

B. Bird was injury hampered but still easily better than pippen then..and bird in 85-86 is significantly than pippen in 95-96

C. Again the context and magnitude of the sample size are important..the earliest game they played each other was in 88...

Regular season

14 games

Pippen:
19.5 PPG,4.9 RPG,6.1 APG,2.4 SPG(31.5)
in 39.4 minutes
24.3 PPG,6.1 RPG,7.6 APG,3 SPG
Bird:
25.9 PPG,8.3 RPG,6.1 APG,1.0 SPG(39.4)

the first issue is...that the stats given are a hypothetical(in other words that's really NOT how he performed)

if you're looking at pure stats "adjusted" they are maybe close(still give the edge to bird)

but there are so many factors that poke holes in using this kind of argument(which im sure you understand)

can pippen match up with bird? yes but if you are talking about the years in question? bird wins the matchup easily

that is my point here

my even larger point is that i think the 85-86 celts have a case for being the best team ever

i'd probably put the bulls #1 if i had to choose...but that 85-86 team was incredible talent wise as well as on the court

When you adjust or equalize their stats on a per minute basis, bird and pippen are even statistically. Obviously not exactly the same but there really isn't much of a difference. And pippen is the hands down better defender.

Then you also have to factor in that while the celtics had an amzing home record, their away record wasn't exactly legendary. It was very good mind you, but seeing as how the bulls would have home court advantage, that another mark for the bulls. And their home record was only one game off of the celtics pace.

 

[97Bulls]

I have the 1993-94 Bulls season formatted onto dvd from my vhs recordings.
If your interested, id be happy to burn you a copy of the games.
If your interested private message me.
You seem like you would appreciate it.
Plus its all the proof you need to varify that Pippen was a franchise player, team leader and a top 3 player in the NBA at that time....A very deserving MVP runner up..Hakeem and Pippen were very very close in the voting that year.
Amazing that Pippen could lead that team to 55 wins and 7 game series against the toughest team (Knicks) in the east that season, the very first year Jordan retired.
Experts expected that team to sruggle just to be a 500 team and didn't give them a chance.
Were they wrong or what. They had people screaming 4-peat.
My favorite Bulls season.
Holla back bro.

PM sent

 

[houheffna]

The jordan/pippen reference is very much founded. Go back and compare the teams.

The 98 bulls were on pace to win 52 games without pippen

Their rosters were

98
Jordan
Kukoc who had 4 years under his belt.
Rodman who was the leagues leading rebounder and still a solid defender
Scott burrell who was pippens replacement, and was better than pete myers
Luc longley who had improved from 94 to 98
Steve Kerr
Harper

94
Pippen
Grant
Kukoc as a rookie
Myers who took jordans place
Longley who was a cast off from the timberwolves
Kerr

The 98 team was better

So the implications are that if Pippen had a Pippen like figure next to him, he is more successful as the main guy than Jordan was? Is that what you are saying? Not based on reality, but what Jordan was "on pace" to do without Pippen...is that what you are saying?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Pippen had Grant next to him in 1994, as his second best player, while Jordan had Kukoc in 1998 (while Pippen was out).

That 1994 team wasn't built to win in the playoffs. Teams that depend too much on using their 9th, 10th, and 11th guys typically struggle in the later rounds of the playoffs. The Bulls and Spurs of this year are great examples of regular season teams. So were the LeBron James' Cavaliers. And so were the '94 Bulls.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Pippen had Grant next to him in 1994, as his second best player, while Jordan had Kukoc in 1998 (while Pippen was out).

That 1994 team wasn't built to win in the playoffs. Teams that depend too much on using their 9th, 10th, and 11th guys typically struggle in the later rounds of the playoffs. The Bulls and Spurs of this year are great examples of regular season teams. So were the LeBron James' Cavaliers. And so were the '94 Bulls.

Wrong!!!!!!
The 1994 Bulls are an example of a team that lost the greatest player to ever play the game of basketball and still remain contenders defying major odds, and only losing 2 more games than the season before.....That is a team with big heart that got cheated with one fateful Hue Hollins call..The 94 team did not really struggle in the playoffs...They swept the first round and took the best defensive team in the east to 7 games. If not for 1 major shift changing call, the 94 Bulls go to the ECON finals and destroy the Pacers taking them into the finals...And can't nobody here tell me the Bulls didn't hold the Pacers card that whole season......The Cavs lose there best player and fall to the bottom of the map..The 2 teams cannot be compared...Get it right sir.....It is very disturbing how the same 2 forum members have been working tirelessly all summer long to discredit Pippen over and over and over again with nothing really to stand on...Sounds like personal Pippen hate to me...WOW guys, WOW !!!!!
What Pippen did that year was lead that team...With no warning, he was asked to fill the Shoes of Jordan and he did a hell of a job. That was a burden only elites could have handled. And the pressure of him being called "the heir to Jordan" had to be heavy as he basically became the league ambassador.

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen had Grant next to him in 1994, as his second best player, while Jordan had Kukoc in 1998 (while Pippen was out).

That 1994 team wasn't built to win in the playoffs. Teams that depend too much on using their 9th, 10th, and 11th guys typically struggle in the later rounds of the playoffs. The Bulls and Spurs of this year are great examples of regular season teams. So were the LeBron James' Cavaliers. And so were the '94 Bulls.

Jordan had rodman too.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Jordan had rodman too.

And Without Pippen, the 98 Bulls struggled to stay above the 500 mark until Pippens return, in which the Bulls all of a sudden have major winning streaks...
In 94 without JORDAN, the Pippen lead Bulls stayed way above 500 without much trouble at all as they blast through the regular season except for the first month while pippen was injured and a small slump right after the allstar break while breaking in Longley....Imagine if PIPPEN DIDN'T MISS THE FIRST MONTH OF THE 94 SEASON..THE BULLS WOULD OF WON AT LEAST 60 GAMES AND HAD HOMECOURT ADVANTAGE AGAINST THE KNICKS.........HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, I WONDER....LMAO

 

[nwfisch]

So Pippen is the main reason the Bulls won their titles?

I don't think Rami and Hou are taking away what Pippen did, thery're putting him in his rightful place as a #2 player in those title runs.