How 'bout that Stoudemire?

[houheffna]

Kobe is a better ball player than Scottie Pippen. People need to watch video tape, turn on a game every now and then. I would like to see the 19 players ANYBODY can say could play ball better than Kobe Bryant in the NBA...

12-Time allstar 3x allstar MVP
11-Time all-nba
9-Time all-defense
NBA MVP, NBA Finals MVP

what more recognition do you need? Then to claim that Kobe doesn't have enough recognition, and then put Pippen on par with him...a player with no MVPs at all renders that argument mute.

But as I said, the real truth lies in watching the players play. Not stat sheets...or awards.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Kobe is a better ball player than Scottie Pippen. People need to watch video tape, turn on a game every now and then. I would like to see the 19 players ANYBODY can say could play ball better than Kobe Bryant in the NBA...

12-Time allstar 3x allstar MVP
11-Time all-nba
9-Time all-defense
NBA MVP, NBA Finals MVP

what more recognition do you need? Then to claim that Kobe doesn't have enough recognition, and then put Pippen on par with him...a player with no MVPs at all renders that argument mute.

But as I said, the real truth lies in watching the players play. Not stat sheets...or awards.

Scottie was the 1994 all-star game MVP. B)
Would have been the 1998 Finals MVP if he didn't play so poorly in Game 5. Then Jordan's game 6 sealed it for him.
Still don't know how Scottie didn't win defensive player of the year in 1995.

But Kobe is #2 on my All-Time list.

Houheffna and seem to be on the same page in a debate. Is this a first?

 

[houheffna]

I was speaking of league/finals mvps...I remember the shaved head and the red shoes...

That said....99.9% of the basketball world knows that right now Kobe Bryant is top 5 in the league. The .1% that don't believe that have something personal against Kobe...that is the only way to explain it...

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I was speaking of league/finals mvps...I remember the shaved head and the red shoes...

That said....99.9% of the basketball world knows that right now Kobe Bryant is top 5 in the league. The .1% that don't believe that have something personal against Kobe...that is the only way to explain it...

I'm talking all-time.

But who's saying Kobe isn't top 5 in the league now? I haven't read all the posts. I jumped into the fray late.

Ah the red shoes and the head that looked like a ruffles potato chip. Love Scottie!

 

[TheStig]

Kush77 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

I was speaking of league/finals mvps...I remember the shaved head and the red shoes...

That said....99.9% of the basketball world knows that right now Kobe Bryant is top 5 in the league. The .1% that don't believe that have something personal against Kobe...that is the only way to explain it...

I'm talking all-time.

But who's saying Kobe isn't top 5 in the league now? I haven't read all the posts. I jumped into the fray late.

Ah the red shoes and the head that looked like a ruffles potato chip. Love Scottie!

I did, I think he has fallen out of the top 5. I think he is somewhere in the 6-8 range. Shakes seconded the motion and the debate was on lol. I just don't value him nearly as much as you guys do. He is top 20 all time but I can't possibly put him in the top 10.

 

[Kush77]

TheStig wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

I was speaking of league/finals mvps...I remember the shaved head and the red shoes...

That said....99.9% of the basketball world knows that right now Kobe Bryant is top 5 in the league. The .1% that don't believe that have something personal against Kobe...that is the only way to explain it...

I'm talking all-time.

But who's saying Kobe isn't top 5 in the league now? I haven't read all the posts. I jumped into the fray late.

Ah the red shoes and the head that looked like a ruffles potato chip. Love Scottie!

I did, I think he has fallen out of the top 5. I think he is somewhere in the 6-8 range. Shakes seconded the motion and the debate was on lol. I just don't value him nearly as much as you guys do. He is top 20 all time but I can't possibly put him in the top 10.

Two questions. 1, who is in the NBA's top 5 now and 2, who's your all-time NBA top 10?

 

[TheStig]

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Wow Kush, I can't agree with you. He is a hell of a scorer but I can't take him above other guys. He doesn't have the awards and recognition others have had. He has 1 mvp. You got guys like Hakeem who lead a bunch of roleplayers to a title, has the same mvp and a couple of dpoys or a guy like shaq or a guy like shaq who was the most dominant player in the league for most of his career. I rank Kobe in the range above Isaih or Drexler, probably about equal with Pip or right above him. But he is out of the top 10. Right around 20. If looking at guys careers, I could pick one guy as a rookie and build a team, I can't pick any perimeter player except MJ and eventually Bron. To me, there is a big gap between MJ and Kobe, there aren't any SG's in between those two but the gap is still significant imo.

We can't use awards as an argument here. He has 1 MVP but you have to look at it more. For the most part he was on a team with Shaq. It's hard to win MVP's when the other guy on the team is also the best player in the league too. During those three years they won Kobe and Shaq were the best 2 players in the league. Doesn't Shaq only have 1 MVP too? A guy like Karl Malone has 2 MVPs but I don't think he deserved either one of them. Jordan should have got it in 1997 and Duncan in 1999. Phil Jackson only has 1 coach of the year and Jerry Sloan has none, so awards can be funny.

I like Hakeem Olajuwon a lot but I'd still take Kobe over him. Kobe in his prime had one of the best scoring seasons ever. 35.4 ppg, 81 points, the 4 straight 50 point games. He's a great scorer and a great player. And saying Olajuwon had a bunch of role players is exaggerating it a bit. Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Mad Max and a couple solid rookies in Sam Cassell and Robert Horry. They were better than just role players. I think Otis Thorpe mad a all-star team once. Then the next year they trade for Clyde Drexler.

But let's be honest. If Jordan doesn't retire the Rockets don't win anything.

Scoring is the most important part of basketball. I don't know why people say "oh he just scores" that can apply to Ben Gordon but Kobe has made all-defensive teams. And I love Pip, but Kobe vs Pip isn't even close. Scottie was the better defender but offensively, especially in the clutch, not even close. And I'm one of the biggest Pippen supporters out there.

Kobe career isn't don either. If he wins another title I don't see how you can argue someone like Olajuwon or Bird. Kobe will have 5 titles and is just a better basketball player overall.

Kobe had better scoring seasons but Hakeem was an amazing scorer himself. He would go through doubles, spin in and out of everywhere, pass out and was an amazing defender. I value low post scoring and defense more than perimeter play. MJ really is the exception to that, he was just so amazing offensively. Those guys are role players, Kobe has had the most dominant player of his generation for his title runs, eddie jones/glenn rice and the same horry, not to mention the year the lakers had 4 hofs and lost. Then he got the best front court in the league between pau, odom and bynum, now he gets a former allstar and dpoy in artest. His teams were so much more stacked than that first rockets championship team.

First one, no. Second one, I will give them a really good shot at. The bulls had nothing at center and never faced a great one with another hof on the team. The knicks were tough but the rockets beat that same team without Drexler. Does Kobe have a career much better than Drexler's going up against a prime MJ? I think MJ eats him alive.

Kobe is really good defensively but he isn't MJ or Pip good. He is a notch below them defensively imo. Thats why I rank Pip so high, his defense was amazing and he was so long.

Kobe has 4 titles but he was the second star on 3 of them. He played with someone who was the most dominant player of his time, its why Pip gets taken down a notch. When you are second fiddle on your team, you don't get as much credit as someone who was the primary guy. You underestimate what having shaq does for you.

 

[Dpauley23]

Kush77 wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Kobe is in my Top 5 of all-time. I still consider Kobe Bryant the best player in the league. LeBron is gonna be that, and he probably has surpassed him in the minds of some people.

If we get that Lakers/Cavs Finals then that will be the showdown. As of right now I'd still take Kobe over LeBron James.

All time? Common Kush, who does he edge out? I don't know of anyone who would put him at the top 10.

What do you mean "come on?"

When it's all said and done Kobe will be #2 behind MJ in my book. He's a great scorer and defensive player. He comes through in the clutch, has great athletic ability. Can beat you inside and out. And he's won 4 titles. Getting the title last year as the main man sealed the deal for me. There was always the "he got the titles with Shaq" excuse out there, but that's gone now.

He' also had the greatest scoring season (outside of Jordan) in my basketball watching life. Unlike some people, I still consider scoring the most important part of basketball.

I'd take Kobe over Larry Bird, Magic, any player prior to 1980. If I made a list I'd have Kobe Bryant #2. There's not other player I can think of that I would take over him besides Jordan.

No way I'd take Kobe over Bird. Bird was such a money time player even better than Bryant. I'd probably say Duncan is better just because of how damn good of defender he was. He was able to hid Parker and Ginobilli's crappy defense

I'd take Kobe over Bird. Kobe is a better scorer and defensive player overall. I love Larry but Kobe is better. Kobe has won more titles, and if the Lakers win this year that would mean he led his team to back-to-back, which Larry Bird couldn't do with Boston.
I also don't see how Bird was better in money time than Bryant. They are both money players in crunch time.

I'll also take Kobe over Duncan. Kobe is a far superior scorer to Duncan and plays just as good of D at his position.

Ya expect how Kobe coasted on every defensive possession until the 4th quarter

 

[TheStig]

Today, in no particular order, Bron, Wade, Durant, Howard, Melo. Paul was up there before the injury. And will be again next year.

Overall, again, in no particular order. MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar Robertson, Magic, Russel, Duncan and Bird.

 

[houheffna]

I'm talking all-time.

But who's saying Kobe isn't top 5 in the league now? I haven't read all the posts. I jumped into the fray late.

Ah the red shoes and the head that looked like a ruffles potato chip. Love Scottie!

I gave dude a chance to recant when I brought it up...he could have said "yeah man, I messed up by saying that...it makes no sense..." instead, he continued with that argument.

Then someone put something in Shakes' ale down there in Austrailia and he actually stated that the argument is valid...he didn't necessarily agree...which was shocking to me. Shakes is better than that...

I just think to make that argument...the person must not be an actual fan of the sport...you can't be watching the games. And as usual, when trying to support an asinine claim, the argument becomes even more nonsensical.

Plus...if you and I agree on it...it is a basketball truth! But really, this is like arguing with someone who thinks 2+2 = 3.95163455224234....crazy.

 

[houheffna]

Ya expect how Kobe coasted on every defensive possession until the 4th quarter

That is what his coach encourages him to do...just as the same coach encouraged Jordan to do it.

 

[Dpauley23]

houheffna wrote:

Ya expect how Kobe coasted on every defensive possession until the 4th quarter

That is what his coach encourages him to do...just as the same coach encouraged Jordan to do it.

Look I'm saying there's anything wrong with it because most of the great players do. Kush was saying though that Bryant made as great of impact as Duncan on the defensive, which is was just disputing. On most of those championship teams after David Robinson left the only good defensive players were Duncan and Bowen

 

[Shakes]

Guards are never going to have the same sort of defensive impact no matter how good they are. I mean look at the Lakers defensive rating, it's all over the shop as the other players on the team have changed around Kobe. The Spurs have always been a great defensive team while Duncan has been there, no matter who he has played with.

 

[houheffna]

Guards are never going to have the same sort of defensive impact no matter how good they are. I mean look at the Lakers defensive rating, it's all over the shop as the other players on the team have changed around Kobe. The Spurs have always been a great defensive team while Duncan has been there, no matter who he has played with.

No doubt about that....with that said...

Kobe is a better player than Tim Duncan...

 

[TheStig]

Take Kobe off the Lakers. Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest and Fisher can get you in the playoffs with a hof coach. Probably a first round exit 6-8 seed but they are in.

Take Wade off the heat, they challenge the nets for worst record. 20 wins max.

Take Bron off the Cavs, with the addition of Jamison, mo williams and a healthy shaq, they get about 30 wins.

Take Howard off the Magic, VC, Nelson, Lewis and Gortat get about 35-40 wins and might sneak in depending on Gortat can do.

Take Melo off the nuggets and they win a max of 30 games.

Take Duncan off the spurs and that front court is really thin and defense is bad, I give them about 30 wins.

Take Durant off the thunder and they are a lottery team, 20 wins max.

Kobe is a great player but the way he plays isn't as impactful on his team. Without him, the defense is about the same and the offense struggles at points. He definetly adds a lot but they don't fall apart without him. Gasol has led a worse supporting cast to the playoffs.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2AdP2fkyA4

 

[Fred]

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Wow Kush, I can't agree with you. He is a hell of a scorer but I can't take him above other guys. He doesn't have the awards and recognition others have had. He has 1 mvp. You got guys like Hakeem who lead a bunch of roleplayers to a title, has the same mvp and a couple of dpoys or a guy like shaq or a guy like shaq who was the most dominant player in the league for most of his career. I rank Kobe in the range above Isaih or Drexler, probably about equal with Pip or right above him. But he is out of the top 10. Right around 20. If looking at guys careers, I could pick one guy as a rookie and build a team, I can't pick any perimeter player except MJ and eventually Bron. To me, there is a big gap between MJ and Kobe, there aren't any SG's in between those two but the gap is still significant imo.

We can't use awards as an argument here. He has 1 MVP but you have to look at it more. For the most part he was on a team with Shaq. It's hard to win MVP's when the other guy on the team is also the best player in the league too. During those three years they won Kobe and Shaq were the best 2 players in the league. Doesn't Shaq only have 1 MVP too? A guy like Karl Malone has 2 MVPs but I don't think he deserved either one of them. Jordan should have got it in 1997 and Duncan in 1999. Phil Jackson only has 1 coach of the year and Jerry Sloan has none, so awards can be funny.

I like Hakeem Olajuwon a lot but I'd still take Kobe over him. Kobe in his prime had one of the best scoring seasons ever. 35.4 ppg, 81 points, the 4 straight 50 point games. He's a great scorer and a great player. And saying Olajuwon had a bunch of role players is exaggerating it a bit. Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Mad Max and a couple solid rookies in Sam Cassell and Robert Horry. They were better than just role players. I think Otis Thorpe mad a all-star team once. Then the next year they trade for Clyde Drexler.

But let's be honest. If Jordan doesn't retire the Rockets don't win anything.

Scoring is the most important part of basketball. I don't know why people say "oh he just scores" that can apply to Ben Gordon but Kobe has made all-defensive teams. And I love Pip, but Kobe vs Pip isn't even close. Scottie was the better defender but offensively, especially in the clutch, not even close. And I'm one of the biggest Pippen supporters out there.

Kobe career isn't don either. If he wins another title I don't see how you can argue someone like Olajuwon or Bird. Kobe will have 5 titles and is just a better basketball player overall.

Who is arguing that Scottie Pippen is more clutch than Kobe Bryant? That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

#1. Scottie Pippen was so incredibly non-clutch, that in the biggest game of his life (up to that point), Game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals against the Pistons, he told the world that he had a horrible migraine headache, although he never suffered from it again. I've never known anyone who had migraine headaches once...it's usually a chronic condition. I think the proper diagnonsis was, "This is a big game, and I've just sh*t my pants."

#2. Phil Jackson thought so little of Scottie's clutchness that he called for rookie Toni Kukoc to take every big shot in the 93-94 instead of Scottie, culminating in the infamous 1.8 seconds game against the Knicks. Toni Kukoc saved Scottie Pippen's career in Chicago, because if that shot doesn't go in, and we get sweep, Pippen never plays another game for the Bulls. Instead, he had a chance to redeem himself with a great dunk on Ewing in Game six. The Bulls still tried to trade him in that offseason for S. Kemp, but an outraged Seattle season ticket base caused the owner to nix the trade.

#3. In the famous Game 4, Reggie Miller 3 game, Pippen bricked 2 free throws that would have iced Game 4. Watch this pathetic choke job around the 6 minute mark of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_KN52uHfgI

Pippen is one of the greatest defenders of all time, top 5 in my book, but nervous energy helps your d...it hurts your offense. And he is one world class choker. Without Jordan, he would have won nothing.

 

[houheffna]

Take Kobe off the Lakers. Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest and Fisher can get you in the playoffs with a hof coach. Probably a first round exit 6-8 seed but they are in.

Take Wade off the heat, they challenge the nets for worst record. 20 wins max.

Take Bron off the Cavs, with the addition of Jamison, mo williams and a healthy shaq, they get about 30 wins.

Take Howard off the Magic, VC, Nelson, Lewis and Gortat get about 35-40 wins and might sneak in depending on Gortat can do.

Take Melo off the nuggets and they win a max of 30 games.

Take Duncan off the spurs and that front court is really thin and defense is bad, I give them about 30 wins.

Take Durant off the thunder and they are a lottery team, 20 wins max.

Kobe is a great player but the way he plays isn't as impactful on his team. Without him, the defense is about the same and the offense struggles at points. He definetly adds a lot but they don't fall apart without him. Gasol has led a worse supporting cast to the playoffs

Don't have to be most impactful to be top 5 in the league. You have to play ball at a higher level than everybody else. Saying Duncan is better than Kobe shows that you don't know how to judge greatness. And so now Gasol is better.....just sad...

You made an irrelevant argument. Take the Mailman off of the Jazz in 1993 and the Jazz would have been a lottery team, take Olajuwon off of the Rockets in 1993 and they are a lottery team. Take Jordan off the Bulls team the same year they win 55 games and were championship contenders....I guess you think Mailman and Hakeem are better than Jordan....somebody get me a shovel!

 

[RC_Skinny22]

Haha and I thought this thread is about Amare

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

Take Jordan off the Bulls team the same year they win 55 games and were championship contenders....I guess you think Mailman and Hakeem are better than Jordan....somebody get me a shovel!

It's a little misleading because the 92-93 Bulls had the point differential of a 58 win team and the 93-94 Bulls had the point differential of a 50 win team. 8 wins lost in a downgrade from Jordan to Kukoc still sounds a little low, but nowhere near as bad as it does to say MJ is only worth 2 wins.

FWIW I think you have to question if Phil Jackson is really all that for only being able to get 57 wins out of the 92-93 team more than anything. He had his main guys in their prime and playing virtually every game yet the team dropped 10 wins from the previous year.