How 'bout that Stoudemire?

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

You mean the years when he was branded a selfish ball hog who couldn't get along with his team mates?

Yeah, those years...just like Michael Jordan had those same problems in the late '80's and had that same reputation. It doesn't matter how he was "branded"...those who watched him knew how great he was...c'mon bruh...

I thought the standard story of the legend of MJ is that he was a selfish ballhog until the Zen Master taught him to trust his team mates and he became the greatest ever.

Anyway I'm not particularly worried about exactly where Kobe ranks in the league right now, the point is that Stig is hardly the only person in the world who wouldn't have him in the top 5. I think Stig is wrong on David Lee, but I hardly think his opinion on Kobe is justification for believing that.

 

[houheffna]

I hope your not trying to compare that selfish ballhog to MJ. Just cause someone tried to immatate the greatest of all time doesn't make him even close.

I don't know if you were watching Jordan 20 years ago...but that was definitely the argument against him...he was still great, and a top 5 player even when selfish...same with Kobe...

As I said before, Phil Jackson has said that the two are very much alike on the court...some have said Kobe is a better player...what is not disputable is that Kobe is a great player, one of the greatest of all time even. To say that Kobe is not close to Jordan in skill is not paying attention to what they can do on the court. A lot of players have tried to imitate Jordan, only one has come close...glad you noticed...

As I have asked others, what could Jordan do on the court, concerning the fundamentals, that Kobe can't? Certan things Jordan could do better, others Kobe could do better, to act as if Jordan was so much better than Kobe is a joke...

I thought the standard story of the legend of MJ is that he was a selfish ballhog until the Zen Master taught him to trust his team mates and he became the greatest ever.

Yes, that is the way it happened, but Jordan would have been considered one of the greatest without Phil Jackson...the selfish, ball hog that Jordan was, was an MVP and one of the top 5 players in the league...matter of fact, whe Phil started coaching him, Jordan was the best in the league...

 

[houheffna]

Anyway I'm not particularly worried about exactly where Kobe ranks in the league right now, the point is that Stig is hardly the only person in the world who wouldn't have him in the top 5. I think Stig is wrong on David Lee, but I hardly think his opinion on Kobe is justification for believing that.

Can you show many ANYONE's list that doesn't have Kobe in the top 5. Unless Stevie Wonder made a list, I don't think you will find one...

I think it shows that you don't know basketball if you don't think Kobe is top 5 in the league...I am sure other people in the world would agree that Kobe is not top 5....then they all are ignorant of the game. People who are knowledgable don't make those type of statements...because its so far off base its ridiculous.

 

[pinkizdead]

top 5 of all time? i guess. it's hard to compare modern players to older players.

 

[houheffna]

I think an argument can be made that he is top 5 all time or at least top 10, but the conversation was concerning whether he is top 5 in the league right now...

 

[Kush77]

Kobe is in my Top 5 of all-time. I still consider Kobe Bryant the best player in the league. LeBron is gonna be that, and he probably has surpassed him in the minds of some people.

If we get that Lakers/Cavs Finals then that will be the showdown. As of right now I'd still take Kobe over LeBron James.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

I would take Kobe over Lebron, too.

Did u realize how many gamewinners Kobe made this season? I think he made at least 4. This is unbelievable and reminds me to somebody else.

 

[TheStig]

Kush77 wrote:

Kobe is in my Top 5 of all-time. I still consider Kobe Bryant the best player in the league. LeBron is gonna be that, and he probably has surpassed him in the minds of some people.

If we get that Lakers/Cavs Finals then that will be the showdown. As of right now I'd still take Kobe over LeBron James.

All time? Common Kush, who does he edge out? I don't know of anyone who would put him at the top 10.

 

[houheffna]

The game continues to evolve...the players today are bigger, stronger, faster and more athletic. Lebron is the same size as Karl Malone for crying out loud...

That said the argument in L.A. is "is Kobe the greatest Laker ever?" the Lakers have waht 2, maybe 3 guys on the top 10 all time list? I think it is easy to say he is a top 10 player, or right there...no doubt

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

I think an argument can be made that he is top 5 all time or at least top 10, but the conversation was concerning whether he is top 5 in the league right now...

right now, that's a question? really?

 

[pinkizdead]

kobe is always hurt everytime he faces lebron, yet he always seems to dominate the games when plays lebron.

 

[houheffna]

right now, that's a question? really?

Exactly! Anyone who feels Kobe is not top 5 is basketball Special person...

 

[Kush77]

TheStig wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Kobe is in my Top 5 of all-time. I still consider Kobe Bryant the best player in the league. LeBron is gonna be that, and he probably has surpassed him in the minds of some people.

If we get that Lakers/Cavs Finals then that will be the showdown. As of right now I'd still take Kobe over LeBron James.

All time? Common Kush, who does he edge out? I don't know of anyone who would put him at the top 10.

What do you mean "come on?"

When it's all said and done Kobe will be #2 behind MJ in my book. He's a great scorer and defensive player. He comes through in the clutch, has great athletic ability. Can beat you inside and out. And he's won 4 titles. Getting the title last year as the main man sealed the deal for me. There was always the "he got the titles with Shaq" excuse out there, but that's gone now.

He' also had the greatest scoring season (outside of Jordan) in my basketball watching life. Unlike some people, I still consider scoring the most important part of basketball.

I'd take Kobe over Larry Bird, Magic, any player prior to 1980. If I made a list I'd have Kobe Bryant #2. There's not other player I can think of that I would take over him besides Jordan.

 

[Kush77]

And in terms of Kobe and LeBron, we can turn to the gold medal game in 2008.

When Spain got to within 1 point of Team USA, who was the one with the clutch shots, including the 4-point play. It was Kobe Bryant, not LeBron James.

I'm not trying to bring down LeBron, he's great. But I'd still take Kobe over him. LeBron has great numbers, and everyone is in awe of his size, but I'll still take Kobe.

A Cavs/Lakers Finals will be a great showdown. If LeBron is ready to take the title of best player in the NBA, then let him take down Kobe and his Lakers. It will be a great Finals if it happens.

 

[Dpauley23]

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Kobe is in my Top 5 of all-time. I still consider Kobe Bryant the best player in the league. LeBron is gonna be that, and he probably has surpassed him in the minds of some people.

If we get that Lakers/Cavs Finals then that will be the showdown. As of right now I'd still take Kobe over LeBron James.

All time? Common Kush, who does he edge out? I don't know of anyone who would put him at the top 10.

What do you mean "come on?"

When it's all said and done Kobe will be #2 behind MJ in my book. He's a great scorer and defensive player. He comes through in the clutch, has great athletic ability. Can beat you inside and out. And he's won 4 titles. Getting the title last year as the main man sealed the deal for me. There was always the "he got the titles with Shaq" excuse out there, but that's gone now.

He' also had the greatest scoring season (outside of Jordan) in my basketball watching life. Unlike some people, I still consider scoring the most important part of basketball.

I'd take Kobe over Larry Bird, Magic, any player prior to 1980. If I made a list I'd have Kobe Bryant #2. There's not other player I can think of that I would take over him besides Jordan.

No way I'd take Kobe over Bird. Bird was such a money time player even better than Bryant. I'd probably say Duncan is better just because of how damn good of defender he was. He was able to hid Parker and Ginobilli's crappy defense

 

[Kush77]

Dpauley23 wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Kobe is in my Top 5 of all-time. I still consider Kobe Bryant the best player in the league. LeBron is gonna be that, and he probably has surpassed him in the minds of some people.

If we get that Lakers/Cavs Finals then that will be the showdown. As of right now I'd still take Kobe over LeBron James.

All time? Common Kush, who does he edge out? I don't know of anyone who would put him at the top 10.

What do you mean "come on?"

When it's all said and done Kobe will be #2 behind MJ in my book. He's a great scorer and defensive player. He comes through in the clutch, has great athletic ability. Can beat you inside and out. And he's won 4 titles. Getting the title last year as the main man sealed the deal for me. There was always the "he got the titles with Shaq" excuse out there, but that's gone now.

He' also had the greatest scoring season (outside of Jordan) in my basketball watching life. Unlike some people, I still consider scoring the most important part of basketball.

I'd take Kobe over Larry Bird, Magic, any player prior to 1980. If I made a list I'd have Kobe Bryant #2. There's not other player I can think of that I would take over him besides Jordan.

No way I'd take Kobe over Bird. Bird was such a money time player even better than Bryant. I'd probably say Duncan is better just because of how damn good of defender he was. He was able to hid Parker and Ginobilli's crappy defense

I'd take Kobe over Bird. Kobe is a better scorer and defensive player overall. I love Larry but Kobe is better. Kobe has won more titles, and if the Lakers win this year that would mean he led his team to back-to-back, which Larry Bird couldn't do with Boston.
I also don't see how Bird was better in money time than Bryant. They are both money players in crunch time.

I'll also take Kobe over Duncan. Kobe is a far superior scorer to Duncan and plays just as good of D at his position.

 

[houheffna]

Kobe is a better basketball player than any player in the '1980's and no Bird is not as clutch as Kobe...matter of fact it was after the Bucks game that Phil Jackson said that Kobe was on par with Jordan when it came to clutch shooting...

The guy today that reminds me of Bird is Carmelo Anthony. Anthony is more athletic, Bird was a better playmaker, but concerning scoring the basketball, Anthony is a lot like Bird was as far as the high level of scoring both inside and outside.

 

[TheStig]

Wow Kush, I can't agree with you. He is a hell of a scorer but I can't take him above other guys. He doesn't have the awards and recognition others have had. He has 1 mvp. You got guys like Hakeem who lead a bunch of roleplayers to a title, has the same mvp and a couple of dpoys or a guy like shaq or a guy like shaq who was the most dominant player in the league for most of his career. I rank Kobe in the range above Isaih or Drexler, probably about equal with Pip or right above him. But he is out of the top 10. Right around 20. If looking at guys careers, I could pick one guy as a rookie and build a team, I can't pick any perimeter player except MJ and eventually Bron. To me, there is a big gap between MJ and Kobe, there aren't any SG's in between those two but the gap is still significant imo.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

I still don´t like comparisons between different positions. To compare Kobe with Duncan? I don´t know.

Point is that Kobe is the second best SG of all time.

 

[Kush77]

TheStig wrote:

Wow Kush, I can't agree with you. He is a hell of a scorer but I can't take him above other guys. He doesn't have the awards and recognition others have had. He has 1 mvp. You got guys like Hakeem who lead a bunch of roleplayers to a title, has the same mvp and a couple of dpoys or a guy like shaq or a guy like shaq who was the most dominant player in the league for most of his career. I rank Kobe in the range above Isaih or Drexler, probably about equal with Pip or right above him. But he is out of the top 10. Right around 20. If looking at guys careers, I could pick one guy as a rookie and build a team, I can't pick any perimeter player except MJ and eventually Bron. To me, there is a big gap between MJ and Kobe, there aren't any SG's in between those two but the gap is still significant imo.

We can't use awards as an argument here. He has 1 MVP but you have to look at it more. For the most part he was on a team with Shaq. It's hard to win MVP's when the other guy on the team is also the best player in the league too. During those three years they won Kobe and Shaq were the best 2 players in the league. Doesn't Shaq only have 1 MVP too? A guy like Karl Malone has 2 MVPs but I don't think he deserved either one of them. Jordan should have got it in 1997 and Duncan in 1999. Phil Jackson only has 1 coach of the year and Jerry Sloan has none, so awards can be funny.

I like Hakeem Olajuwon a lot but I'd still take Kobe over him. Kobe in his prime had one of the best scoring seasons ever. 35.4 ppg, 81 points, the 4 straight 50 point games. He's a great scorer and a great player. And saying Olajuwon had a bunch of role players is exaggerating it a bit. Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Mad Max and a couple solid rookies in Sam Cassell and Robert Horry. They were better than just role players. I think Otis Thorpe mad a all-star team once. Then the next year they trade for Clyde Drexler.

But let's be honest. If Jordan doesn't retire the Rockets don't win anything.

Scoring is the most important part of basketball. I don't know why people say "oh he just scores" that can apply to Ben Gordon but Kobe has made all-defensive teams. And I love Pip, but Kobe vs Pip isn't even close. Scottie was the better defender but offensively, especially in the clutch, not even close. And I'm one of the biggest Pippen supporters out there.

Kobe career isn't don either. If he wins another title I don't see how you can argue someone like Olajuwon or Bird. Kobe will have 5 titles and is just a better basketball player overall.