If the Bulls fire Tom Thibodeau...

[Diddy1122]

my point has nothing to do with his success with the team it simply has to do with his style

his style is tough, demanding and draining both physically and mentally...coaches with that style seem to usually flame out rather quickly like the ones i pointed out in my post...doesn't matter who is on the team thats gonna be his style

the Don Nelson thing was a joke and i agree about training staff

If your point has nothing to do with success of the team, then what is the issue? His "style" has been successful as he's gotten us to the playoffs every single season he's been here, missing his best player for 3 of those seasons. That HAS to be a factor in any decision the FO makes. To dismiss that would be a grave mistake.

Pop is a demanding coach. He hasn't flamed out with the Spurs. Carlilse is a demanding coach. He's still with the Mavs. Both have won championships with that "demanding" style. The coaches you mentioned (Skiles & Collins) were demanding BUT it was more so their personalities, not their coaching style, that ushered them out the door. That is not the case with Thibs. He loves his players and they love him.

Quite simply, neither one of us has any idea how "draining" the style is on the players. All we have to go by is what former and current players have said. There were only 2 (who both had issues with Thibs) that have ever come out and said he's a demanding, commandeering coach. Both of those players are gone and have done jack since being with the Bulls. Gasol, a guy you like to claim Thibs is wearing down, is having a career year & has said on multiple occasions that Thibs isn't that hard on the players. For me, I'm going to listen to the guys that are in that locker room every day. All indications from them are contrary to this perception of Thibs as a over demanding hard ass.

 

[Axl Rose]

If your point has nothing to do with success of the team, then what is the issue? His "style" has been successful as he's gotten us to the playoffs every single season he's been here, missing his best player for 3 of those seasons. That HAS to be a factor in any decision the FO makes. To dismiss that would be a grave mistake.

Pop is a demanding coach. He hasn't flamed out with the Spurs. Carlilse is a demanding coach. He's still with the Mavs. Both have won championships with that "demanding" style. The coaches you mentioned (Skiles & Collins) were demanding BUT it was more so their personalities, not their coaching style, that ushered them out the door. That is not the case with Thibs. He loves his players and they love him.

Quite simply, neither one of us has any idea how "draining" the style is on the players. All we have to go by is what former and current players have said. There were only 2 (who both had issues with Thibs) that have ever come out and said he's a demanding, commandeering coach. Both of those players are gone and have done jack since being with the Bulls. Gasol, a guy you like to claim Thibs is wearing down, is having a career year & has said on multiple occasions that Thibs isn't that hard on the players. For me, I'm going to listen to the guys that are in that locker room every day. All indications from them are contrary to this perception of Thibs as a over demanding hard ass.

maybe you're right but the only reason i say that maybe they are getting a bit tired is because the lack of effort they have shown this season...this team has been very unthibs-like

i don't think it really matters either way because unless thibs changes he ways enough to appease the management hes most likely a goner...most ppl are reporting its beyond repair so it may be no hope

i'll tell you though the players could save his job by stepping up...if the players are rallied behind him then the FO has no option but to keep him

their lackadaisical play which is causing them to underachieve isn't doing thibs any favors and really is only making his firing more justifiable

 

[Bear Pride]

If your point has nothing to do with success of the team, then what is the issue? His "style" has been successful as he's gotten us to the playoffs every single season he's been here, missing his best player for 3 of those seasons. That HAS to be a factor in any decision the FO makes. To dismiss that would be a grave mistake.

Pop is a demanding coach. He hasn't flamed out with the Spurs. Carlilse is a demanding coach. He's still with the Mavs. Both have won championships with that "demanding" style. The coaches you mentioned (Skiles & Collins) were demanding BUT it was more so their personalities, not their coaching style, that ushered them out the door. That is not the case with Thibs. He loves his players and they love him.

Quite simply, neither one of us has any idea how "draining" the style is on the players. All we have to go by is what former and current players have said. There were only 2 (who both had issues with Thibs) that have ever come out and said he's a demanding, commandeering coach. Both of those players are gone and have done jack since being with the Bulls. Gasol, a guy you like to claim Thibs is wearing down, is having a career year & has said on multiple occasions that Thibs isn't that hard on the players. For me, I'm going to listen to the guys that are in that locker room every day. All indications from them are contrary to this perception of Thibs as a over demanding hard ass.

Does it seem strange that you first talk about success, and them you compare Thib's to Pop and Carlisle? Both those coaches have actually won a championship. I don't see how you can actually compare Thib's to them. Carlisle beat that same Miami team that beat Thib's, right? Isn't it the fact that Thib's hasn't won anything what's in question?

 

[Bear Pride]

maybe you're right but the only reason i say that maybe they are getting a bit tired is because the lack of effort they have shown this season...this team has been very unthibs-like

i don't think it really matters either way because unless thibs changes he ways enough to appease the management hes most likely a goner...most ppl are reporting its beyond repair so it may be no hope

i'll tell you one thing though the players could save his job by stepping up...if the players are rallied behind him then the FO has no option but to keep him

their lackadaisical play which is causing them to underachieve isn't doing thibs any favors and really is only making his firing more justifiable

This is one thing that has really bothered me this year. The fact that the Bulls have been losing to many teams that are bottom teams is a concern. This clearly means that the Bulls team is under performing. The fact that the Bulls beat the good teams shows they have the talent.

But an under performing team usually is cuz of the coach. It's the coaches job to have the team prepared to play every night, and Thib's preaches that, but he has not done that.

 

[Scoot26]

KC Johnson on Thibs from his mailbag:

With the Noah/Gasol contracts expiring in 2016, does a potential split from Thibs make more sense for 2016 after giving it one more title run? Or would this same group of players buy in to a new coach for 2015-16? -- Scott, Lincolnshire


Actually, Gasol has a player option of $7.7 million for 2016-17. It will be interesting to see what decision he makes given the latest news about the salary cap possibly jumping to $90 million that summer.

I said this in last week’s mailbag, but the Thibodeau situation is mostly mutually exclusive from all other issues. It simply comes down to whether he and management can co-exist for one or -- even less likely -- two more seasons to fulfill his contract. The fluid aspects are multiple -- ownership could try to salvage one more year of the deal, Thibodeau, who loves living and coaching in Chicago, could decide the grass may not be greener elsewhere, the Bulls could make a title run. I’ve reported the relationship is beyond repair and I’ve offered the opinion that if I had to guess, Thibodeau will be coaching elsewhere next season. I’ve also emphasized this is a two-way street, that the relationship has soured from both ends. But to say his leaving is guaranteed or has been decided would be inaccurate. Let the season play out. Both he and management remain committed to winning a title this season and the relationship involves daily conversation that is cordial and professional.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Can anyone give an example, from any of the major sports, where head coaching change for the sake of change has benefited the team?

 

[Scoot26]

Can anyone give an example, from any of the major sports, where head coaching change for the sake of change has benefited the team?

The Warriors? The 1989 Chicago Bulls?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

The Warriors? The 1989 Chicago Bulls?

I don't think either of those qualify. Jackson was given two years, and we've discussed Collins in this thread. In addition, at the least with the 89 Bulls, there was a clear replacement.

I'm talking in terms of an established guy like Thibs.

 

[Scoot26]

I don't think either of those qualify. Jackson was given two years, and we've discussed Collins in this thread. In addition, at the least with the 89 Bulls, there was a clear replacement.

I'm talking in terms of an established guy like Thibs.

I was 1-2 years old when firing of Collins happened... Can Bulls fans who were older at that time attest to the fact that Jackson was the clear replacement and everyone had an idea of what they're were getting? I just find that hard to believe.

I recall Collins being popular when he was coach here.

Miami firing Stan Van Gundy and Pat Riley taking over can kind of be seen as such..

 

[clonetrooper264]

I don't think either of those qualify. Jackson was given two years, and we've discussed Collins in this thread. In addition, at the least with the 89 Bulls, there was a clear replacement.

I'm talking in terms of an established guy like Thibs.

Jackson like Phil Jackson or Jackson like Mark Jackson (referring to given two years)? I'm not sure why the Warriors don't fit the scenario...Jackson was an established coach with them and led them to places they had not seen since the 70s. I guess you could say that we don't yet know the end result. I could find that acceptable.

 

[Crystallas]

Can anyone give an example, from any of the major sports, where head coaching change for the sake of change has benefited the team?

Paul Westphal is the closest example I can think of, but that's a bit unfair as the Suns acquired a future Hall of Famer and former All-Star that year.

From a top-tiered coach to a fresh face?(eliminating Doug Collins, VDN, Mark Jackson, Bill Fitch) It does happen. But when teams make these changes, it rarely works out as a net benefit.

 

[Scoot26]

Paul Westphal is the closest example I can think of, but that's a bit unfair as the Suns acquired a future Hall of Famer and former All-Star that year.

From a top-tiered coach to a fresh face?(eliminating Doug Collins, VDN, Mark Jackson, Bill Fitch) It does happen. But when teams make these changes, it rarely works out as a net benefit.

In 1991, the Suns lost to the Utah Jazz at the Western Conference Playoffs' first round, 3 games to 1. During the rest of the playoffs, Fitzsimmons served briefly as a color commentator for NBC, most notably, alongside Marv Albert for Game 4 of the Eastern Conference Finals between the Chicago Bulls and the Detroit Pistons. In 1992, Cotton Fitzsimmons became only the sixth coach in NBA history to reach 800 wins. After losing to the Trail Blazers at that year's Western Conference Semi-Finals, 4 games to 1, Fitzsimmons retired as coach, to work as Suns senior executive vice-president. By then a long-time friend of Colangelo, he helped Colangelo decide to trade Jeff Hornacek, Andrew Lang and Tim Perry for Charles Barkley, while also helping with the decision of signing free agent Danny Ainge. He also did television commentary, joining Al McCoy for Suns broadcasts.

Fitzsimmons also retired, wasn't fired.

 

[Crystallas]

Fired, retired, sometimes one is just a more respectful way of doing the other.

 

[Scoot26]

Fired, retired, sometimes one is just a more respectful way of doing the other.

Well he was kept within the organization... The Bulls seem to want to completely do away with Thibs.

 

[Diddy1122]

I was 1-2 years old when firing of Collins happened... Can Bulls fans who were older at that time attest to the fact that Jackson was the clear replacement and everyone had an idea of what they're were getting? I just find that hard to believe.

I recall Collins being popular when he was coach here.

Miami firing Stan Van Gundy and Pat Riley taking over can kind of be seen as such..

Collins and management didn't see eye to eye, kind of similar to the Thibs situation now, but Krause had been eyeing Jackson a year prior to the firing and immediately offered him the job. MJ wasn't too pleased but it all did work out for the best.

That is one of the rare situations where it has worked. But as far as I can tell, there is no clear cut favorite to take over for Thibs. Add to the fact that he has 2 years left on his deal after this year, I truly don't believe he will be fired in the offseason. If the team fails this season AND next season, I fully expect the FO to part ways, while only losing 1 year of that guaranteed money, just like with Doug.

 

[Scoot26]

This Tribune article by Sam Smith from 1989 after the firing of Doug Collins can give us some incite to what it was like at the time...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...owner-jerry-reinsdorf-bulls-next-coach-lyme/2

A key section:

Reinsdorf saw Collins` staff being splintered apart by his egoism. The top assistant, Phil Jackson, who most likely will be the Bulls` next coach, was given the silent treatment by Collins, and his venerable ace assistant, Tex Winter, was barred from practices for a time because he dared speak his opinion about Collins` coaching mistakes.

Reinsdorf saw Collins running out players he didn`t want, such as Charles Oakley, then not utilizing his replacement, Bill Cartwright. He saw Collins, after agreeing to use draft choices for specified amounts of time during the season, banish last year`s No. 1 pick, Will Perdue, to the bench.

Reinsdorf saw his general manager, Jerry Krause, persuade him to hire Collins and then watched Collins try to get Krause fired so he could have his job, too.Reinsdorf saw his superstar, Michael Jordan, being burned up by Collins, whose insecurity-driven style wouldn`t allow him to adequately rest Jordan.

Reinsdorf saw Collins burning the candle at both ends, a fiery, driven coach on the floor and a man given to excess in his lifestyle off the floor.

Here was this gleaming, powerful locomotive of a coach barreling down the track at punishing speeds, seemingly heading in the right direction.
But the brakes weren`t working, and the bolts were coming loose, and just around the hill there were unseen dangers.

Jerry Reinsdorf hit the brakes for his coach, and to all it appeared unnecessary.

But maybe people need victims to truly assess a tragedy.

And Collins said all the right things. He was a defensive coach. He believed you put players in position to succeed by asking them to do only what they do well, as Don Nelson does. He believed in an up-tempo style, conducive to management`s plan of drafting quick players. He believed in playing youngsters. He knew Jordan needed rest and wouldn`t gear the entire offense toward him.

Some characteristics of Thibs are here... but not entirely. Players and his coaching staff seemingly had grown to not like Collins while with Thibs and the players get along great and I think his staff likes him as well (and Paxson fucked with his staff anyways).

There's mention of Collins not playing young guys, something Thibs has displayed (only plays them when he has to outside of an more experienced Euro players).

But in hindsight, Collin's problems seem a hell lot worse than anything we see being displayed from Thibs today.

 

[Axl Rose]

the overplaying is thibs-like too

 

[clonetrooper264]

the overplaying is thibs-like too

Except only Jordan was mentioned...and let's be real, you're not gonna complain about the GOAT playing too many minutes.

 

[Diddy1122]

This Tribune article by Sam Smith from 1989 after the firing of Doug Collins can give us some incite to what it was like at the time...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...owner-jerry-reinsdorf-bulls-next-coach-lyme/2

Some characteristics of Thibs are here... but not entirely. Players and his coaching staff seemingly had grown to not like Collins while with Thibs and the players get along great and I think his staff likes him as well (and Paxson fucked with his staff anyways).

There's mention of Collins not playing young guys, something Thibs has displayed (only plays them when he has to outside of an more experienced Euro players).

But in hindsight, Collin's problems seem a hell lot worse than anything we see being displayed from Thibs today.

Well Sam did conveintly leave out the fact that Krause hired Phil & Tex as the assistant, and not Collins. So Collins had an idea of what Krause was trying to do & basically tried to sabotage things for him by not playing the guys Krause went out and got.

The only real comparison I see in the situation is the disconnect with the GM. Other than that, the situations are apples and oranges. Thibs is beloved by his players and coaches, and even other players and coaches who've worked with him. He hasn't driven his star players into the ground or refused to play players out of spite.

This is why I feel Pax is the one who needs to go. He's meddled with every coach that he's had. He's a hot head and you can't have a hot head running your organization. It alienates the people under him, which we are seeing with Thibs now.

 

[Scoot26]

Well Sam did conveintly leave out the fact that Krause hired Phil & Tex as the assistant, and not Collins. So Collins had an idea of what Krause was trying to do & basically tried to sabotage things for him by not playing the guys Krause went out and got.

The only real comparison I see in the situation is the disconnect with the GM. Other than that, the situations are apples and oranges. Thibs is beloved by his players and coaches, and even other players and coaches who've worked with him. He hasn't driven his star players into the ground or refused to play players out of spite.

This is why I feel Pax is the one who needs to go. He's meddled with every coach that he's had. He's a hot head and you can't have a hot head running your organization. It alienates the people under him, which we are seeing with Thibs now.

Well its mentioned in many of these articles I've been reading that Collins and Krause started feuding within 6 months...From my understanding Phil was hired after Doug's first season? In that case, it could be seen as a power move by Krause.

Its also been shown every coach Krause hired, he feuded with from Collins to Jackson to Floyd.

Further reading has also shown that there's mixed opinion on how the players felt towards Collins. Jordan didn't seem to care one way or another, but lesser guys were shocked and surprised and upset that Collins was fired.