IGT: Heat vs BULLS Monday January 25th @ 7:00pm on CSN

[clonetrooper264]

Here's a thing about Rose. We talk a lot about him deferring to Jimmy, we've mentioned how it's either Jimmy or Rose, when one person has the ball the other one stands and watches, they don't really know how to play well together. But what kind of player complements Rose's play really? A pick and pop PF? I'm not sure who could offer a real 1-2 punch with him, instead of the 1 or 2 punch were getting now. I'm sure some coaching adjustments would have to happen, and I mean it took KD and Westbrook a while to really gel with each other, but KD and Westbrook are far better than Rose and Butler.

I don't know


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Prime Butler and MVP Rose are probably still worse than the KD/Westbrook combo, but it'd be closer at least. Unfortunately, we'll never see that to confirm or deny it. Still, it did take those two a long time to properly gel like you said and Rose and Butler haven't even had a full season together.

How much of their "lack of chemistry" is a function of design or unfamiliarity is anyone's guess. Just anecdotal speaking as a crappy pick up basketball player, it doesn't take me that long to figure out how to play with someone, but it does take a while to play with someone well.

That said, here's a breakdown of some of the offensive sets where Rose and Butler do work well together: http://www.blogabull.com/2016/1/27/10830540/rose-and-butler-are-slowly-working-better-together

 

[clonetrooper264]

Also just a random thought I had regarding this game and the comment that Rose doesn't make his teammates better...the offense was ridiculously bad in the 2nd half without Rose. That stretch with Jimmy at the point was painful. All that time I thought, if only we had Rose, we'd be doing so much better right now. He might not directly make his teammates better, but he makes the team better.

 

[cjswan232482]

People have been using the "Rose's teammates miss so his assists totals are lower than they should" argument since his MVP year. The fact is, every PG sets up their teammates only to have them miss. The main difference is, they set them up more often, giving them more chances, leading to higher assist totals. Rose is a shoot first player who is still trying to find that balance of scoring enough points while also setting up his teammates. In addition, Fred's preference is ball movement and swinging the ball around and not having one guy as the play maker. I remember at the beginning of the year, Rose said there's no reason he shouldn't average 7 APG with this roster. I agree with him...but it hasn't translated because he's not passing enough to get those totals. Unless you expect his teammates to hit every shot he passes them the ball, he needs to start passing more and giving them more chances if he's going to be a 7 APG player again.

Well this has also been exacerbated with Jimmy Butler insistence of playing more point guard. Lets be honest. Couple that with instability at sf and assists are down across the board.

 

[Enasic]

Well this has also been exacerbated with Jimmy Butler insistence of playing more point guard. Lets be honest. Couple that with instability at sf and assists are down across the board.

Those play a factor as well but Doug is a good kick out option and if Rose collapses the defense, he should get Snell a ton of open looks too. I think the main problem is, he doesn't give his teammates enough chances. If you only set up your teammates for an open look/easy score 7 times a game, they're not going to make all 7 of the shots. Mind you, I'm not acting like 7 is an exact number, but you get my point. As of late, he's just really been looking to score. Anyone whose been watching the games knows he isn't concentrating too much on being a facilitator.

 

[clonetrooper264]

As of late, he's just really been looking to score. Anyone whose been watching the games knows he isn't concentrating too much on being a facilitator.

Perhaps so, but I do think he'll find that balance again. Once he reestablishes himself as a constant threat to score I'm pretty certain the assists will go up. Again, Rose is one of those guys who generates assists because he's a threat to score. And really, the team is at its best when he is in that attack mode and looking to score and dishing it once the defense collapses around him. You can say the same for Jimmy really. He's getting lots of assists off of penetration as well.

 

[Enasic]

Perhaps so, but I do think he'll find that balance again. Once he reestablishes himself as a constant threat to score I'm pretty certain the assists will go up. Again, Rose is one of those guys who generates assists because he's a threat to score. And really, the team is at its best when he is in that attack mode and looking to score and dishing it once the defense collapses around him. You can say the same for Jimmy really. He's getting lots of assists off of penetration as well.

I don't disagree but some people are acting like Rose is dishing it left and right and guys are missing every single shot thrown their way from Derrick and only Derrick.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I don't disagree but some people are acting like Rose is dishing it left and right and guys are missing every single shot thrown their way from Derrick and only Derrick.

Nah, it's not totally like that. I mean, they do miss shots, but that's true for everyone. The reality is somewhere in the middle of the extremes of teammates always missing and Derrick never passing.

 

[GalePayton]

My rationale is based on statistics and metrics vs. what he is currently being paid. My rationale is also based on his comments at the beginning of the season where he, unprompted, talked about his contract in 2017.

Is your money being used to pay Rose? ... Is his pay keeping GarPax from making their first ever blockbuster trade or signing their first ever top free agent?

The answer to those questions is no, thus your rationale is silly.

 

[GalePayton]

Can we consider Christmas as to when he was over his eye injury? 19 ppg and 48% shooting is not MVP numbers, which as Prope (sorry Gus) insinuated in that Rose still thinks he's the MVP and he's not playing like one.

You guys have gotten to the point of making up reasons to hate Rose. It's silly.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

You guys have gotten to the point of making up reasons to hate Rose. It's silly.

See, this is where you just don't, and probably will never, understand the argument being put forward. I'm a Bulls fan, I want what is best for the team. Period. If that is with Rose great, but I think he's worth a lot less than what he's getting paid now. So if this play continues and he wants big money, then bye Felicia.

 

[Axl Rose]

Is his pay keeping GarPax from signing their first ever top free agent?

actually yes

im still a firm believer that we would have gotten Melo had we had the max to offer. Rose and his "Rose Rule" max blocked us from having the max whereas if he had the regular max we would have had it

is that Roses fault? no but his pay did hamper us

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Rose is a valuable asset to this organization. I think within the next couple of seasons, he is capable of being a fully dominant player again.

However, his knees are simply not going to hold up into his 30s. I just do not see that happening at all. His window of being possibly being a great player is closing very fast. And this is coming from someone with very high hopes for Rose dating all the way back to the ACL tear.

That is why I really have my doubts about offering him max money. Even if it means he walks.

 

[cjswan232482]

actually yes

im still a firm believer that we would have gotten Melo had we had the max to offer. Rose and his "Rose Rule" max blocked us from having the max whereas if he had the regular max we would have had it

is that Roses fault? no but his pay did hamper us

Nonsense, playing with Rose was a selling point. Taj Gibson was more of a hindrance because the Bulls made it clear a S and T option including not an option. M

 

[Axl Rose]

Nonsense, playing with Rose was a selling point. Taj Gibson was more of a hindrance because the Bulls made it clear a S and T option including not an option. M

you missed my point about the Rose Rule contract. his max was higher than the players with with his years in the league and that hindered us giving Melo a max deal.

im not blaming that on Rose as its not his fault he played so good they decided to change the rule...but his contract did indeed hurt us. also Bulls never made anything clear about S&T not being a option

Paxson said there was never any discussions about a S&T. if Melo said he'd sign i think they would have made the appropriate moves in order to meet melos demands...but if you take Taj off that team it becomes less appealing

things would have been so much easier if Rose just got the regular max. they could have offered Melo a max deal outright with no S&T or hoops to jump through

 

[clonetrooper264]

Not that it matters, but I don't think Rose even took the full max he could've with that Rose provision. Salary was still higher than anyone else in his draft class for obvious reasons. However, idk how much that 3M difference would have made in regards to the Melo thing. IIRC, we were like 10M short of a max or something.

 

[Axl Rose]

Not that it matters, but I don't think Rose even took the full max he could've with that Rose provision. Salary was still higher than anyone else in his draft class for obvious reasons. However, idk how much that 3M difference would have made in regards to the Melo thing. IIRC, we were like 10M short of a max or something.

Bulls had like 16-17m in cap space so yes 3m could have very well made a difference. i swear i did the math once where it showed Anthony could have got a max deal if Rose was on a regular max.

heres a thread around the time that i made...maybe i was high and had numbers mixed up
http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/...kout-was-the-worst-thing-to-ever-happen-to-us

but the thread still has some truth...we haven't been the same since that damn lockout

 

[clonetrooper264]

Bulls had like 16-17m in cap space so yes 3m could have very well made a difference

i swear i did the math once where it showed Anthony could have got a max deal if Rose was on a regular max

I remember it being where we could only offer him like 14M to start if we did something with Dunleavy or something like that. I could've sworn we were way more than 3M away from a max to start...

 

[Scoot26]

Bulls had like 16-17m in cap space so yes 3m could have very well made a difference

i swear i did the math once where it showed Anthony could have got a max deal if Rose was on a regular max

I dunno this is what I get:

Player	Salary
Derrick Rose	$18,862,875
Joakim Noah	$12,200,000
Taj Gibson	$8,000,000
Mike Dunleavy	$3,326,235
Doug McDermott	$2,277,960
Jimmy Butler	$2,008,748
Tony Snell	$1,472,400
Richard Hamilton	$333,333
TOTAL	$48,481,551

This is players there were under contract at the time and what their salaries would be.

The salary cap was set at 63.2 million.. so according to this math the Bulls only had just under 15 million in cap space without moving anyone. I think a max contract going into that year was 20.something million. Rose being paid the 25% rule instead of the 30% rule wouldn't net them $5 million.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Also for clarification, I keep using 3M because that's the difference between Rose and Westbrook's contracts at the time. Rose at 18M, Westbrook at 15M.

 

[Axl Rose]

i guess had my numbers wrong at the time so i apologize for my mistake

still 3 extra million could have been the difference. you move Dunleavy and you have 21m per with Rose making regular max and 22 if you move Snell, which was Carmelo's max....maybe this was my thinking

Rose-Butler-Taj-Noah-Doug and a max deal? shit i say he takes that