Illegal Immigration costs

[TSD]

I can respect PSR's compassion for his fellow man and also the live and let live attitude, but I think TSD has made the most logical points.



I have a question though.





If people are obtaining false SS #s to get work, and are denied "their" tax return, doesn't that mean that they have income tax withheld from their paychecks just like the rest of us? That would dampen the "illegals pay no taxes" argument a bit. (not that you said that, TSD)

Yes and no. Some do pay taxes and some dont. and In both gorups some try to file tax returns and if they didnt pay taxes simply lie to try and get a tax return. Obviously they dont, but they try.



The government really doesnt know what they have or have not taxed an individual until they audit them. So it is entirely possible someone who has paid no taxes can fake a tax return and get money. With illegals most of the time their SS is rejected.

 

[Pez68]

Yes and no. Some do pay taxes and some dont. and In both gorups some try to file tax returns and if they didnt pay taxes simply lie to try and get a tax return. Obviously they dont, but they try.



The government really doesnt know what they have or have not taxed an individual until they audit them. So it is entirely possible someone who has paid no taxes can fake a tax return and get money. With illegals most of the time their SS is rejected.

Exactly. I can tell you from personal experience that most of the illegals working here under fake SS numbers pay little to no income tax.

 

[ytsejam]

Thanks guys. That's why I asked.

This has been an interesting discussion so far.

 

[Pez68]

They've had our system pegged for probably ten years now. That is how far back my knowledge of illegals cheating the system goes, so it has probably been much longer than that. This is all from my father's experience, my experience, and by brother and brother-in-law's experience. Working with illegals, of course. Back roughly ten years ago, it cost an illegal around $100 to get a fake social security card and a fake license. With that, they could work pretty much any low wage job they wanted, and pay zero income tax. They would just claim a ton of dependents and never file their income tax. From there, they take the money they need to live and pay rent on their $500 a month apartment, that they split with ten people, and send the rest of the money back to Mexico... In Mexico they could build a REALLY nice house for roughly $30,000. This was the story for nine out of every ten illegals I knew and spoke to on a daily basis when working in the restaurant industry. The same for those I knew working in the industrial and labor industries. A lot of the time, they would save up the $1500 or so that it cost to smuggle another illegal into the country from Mexico to Chicago, and get another family member over here. Then they would use their experience working with a company to get their son/brother hired. Rinse and repeat... The naivety of some people is just astounding to me. I can't believe this isn't pretty much common knowledge by now...

 

[PatrickSharpRules]

Exactly. I can tell you from personal experience that most of the illegals working here under fake SS numbers pay little to no income tax.

That is very true. I know it bother's a lot of people, but when I get a paycheck and see 12 or 14% of it vanish something about it is alright. Our country wastes a lot of money, and does a ton of things COMPLETELY ass backwards. But in the end I have all the opportunities in the world here, can say whatever I want and its a great place to live. So yea the illegals aren't paying taxes, thats bullshit, but their doing something that non of us who grew up here in America could imagine. They picked up everything they knew and left, and left for what we would consider a pretty shitty life, but to them its golden. I have the utmost respect for that and still thank my great grandparents for doing the same. Also for the record, one of my great grandpa's never became a citizen, spoke broken english and raised 11 kids. My grandpa and great uncles fought in WWII and raised their own big families. This situation is not much different for these people. Just on a grander scale. So sure its not right for these people to be ducking out on taxes they have to pay, but for fucks sake if their criminals then lock me up.





Reagan would have been 100 today, and one of his moves was granting 3 million illegal aliens amnesty. I would have no problem with the move today.

 

[PatrickSharpRules]

They've had our system pegged for probably ten years now. That is how far back my knowledge of illegals cheating the system goes, so it has probably been much longer than that. This is all from my father's experience, my experience, and by brother and brother-in-law's experience. Working with illegals, of course. Back roughly ten years ago, it cost an illegal around $100 to get a fake social security card and a fake license. With that, they could work pretty much any low wage job they wanted, and pay zero income tax. They would just claim a ton of dependents and never file their income tax. From there, they take the money they need to live and pay rent on their $500 a month apartment, that they split with ten people, and send the rest of the money back to Mexico... In Mexico they could build a REALLY nice house for roughly $30,000. This was the story for nine out of every ten illegals I knew and spoke to on a daily basis when working in the restaurant industry. The same for those I knew working in the industrial and labor industries. A lot of the time, they would save up the $1500 or so that it cost to smuggle another illegal into the country from Mexico to Chicago, and get another family member over here. Then they would use their experience working with a company to get their son/brother hired. Rinse and repeat... The naivety of some people is just astounding to me. I can't believe this isn't pretty much common knowledge by now...

It is common knowledge by now. The fact is there not that crafty, there's clearly a lack of focus on the issue. The ones I know are paid under the table, obviously tax free. I mean I got a fake I.D. from a guy at 45th and kedzie for 80$. There not hiding like Anne Frank like you would expect. And one's I have met have never talked about going back to mexico and really other than talking about family seemed to despise the place. Not to mention the few guys I asked both said they wouldn't go through the passage into America again. I do know one guy who married an American citizen and subsequently became a citizen.

 

[TSD]

That is very true. I know it bother's a lot of people, but when I get a paycheck and see 12 or 14% of it vanish something about it is alright. Our country wastes a lot of money, and does a ton of things COMPLETELY ass backwards. But in the end I have all the opportunities in the world here, can say whatever I want and its a great place to live. So yea the illegals aren't paying taxes, thats bullshit, but their doing something that non of us who grew up here in America could imagine. They picked up everything they knew and left, and left for what we would consider a pretty shitty life, but to them its golden. I have the utmost respect for that and still thank my great grandparents for doing the same. Also for the record, one of my great grandpa's never became a citizen, spoke broken english and raised 11 kids. My grandpa and great uncles fought in WWII and raised their own big families. This situation is not much different for these people. Just on a grander scale. So sure its not right for these people to be ducking out on taxes they have to pay, but for fucks sake if their criminals then lock me up.





Reagan would have been 100 today, and one of his moves was granting 3 million illegal aliens amnesty. I would have no problem with the move today.

lol, 12 to 14% who are you paying taxes to? Damn near 40% of my pay goes to the state and federal goverment.



let me put it to you strait up. I am a Veteran, a college graduate and I make 60k a year. I live in a 1 bedroom apartment, I have a new car. After i pay rent, Utilities, car payment, cell bill, cable bill, I seriously dont have a whole lot left a month, and after taxes I get about 3200 a month. It pisses me the **** off, I am simply amazed at how people support families. You are up for a rude awakening when it comes time to where you dont have the support of anyone but yourself.



Seriously dude money doesnt go very far, when I was in college it was easy for me to dismiss shit like this too, considering I made money to go to college. i couldnt imagine if I also had to pay back student loan debt on top of all this shit. Seriously they rape you for everything.

 

[Pez68]

Listen man. Very few of the posters here are more than second generation citizens in this country. I imagine a bunch of us have grandparents or great-grandparents that immigrated here from another country. Three out of my four grandparents are immigrants from Europe. Two from Poland, and one from England. That doesn't change anything in this conversation. Those people came here legally and worked for what they earned. It was a totally different time in this country. They weren't getting welfare checks, WIC, food stamps, and government aid back in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. They were working their ASSES off, doing the jobs that had to be done. A lot of those people were also fleeing WAR TORN countries and PERSECUTION to come here. I don't understand how you can possibly compare immigrants from Europe 50+ years ago with the current situation we have with Mexican immigrants. It is apples to oranges.



Do you speak fluent Spanish? I do, and I hung out with many of these illegals in my teens and early twenties. The things they say amongst themselves, in Spanish, are the things I mentioned here. I had dinner with a lot of these folks. I hung out with them after work, traded favors with them, got drunk with them, etc. These were my friends. You learn a lot from people during your friendship with them. Things not many others know. I have no problem sharing these things now, because all but one or two of them are back in Mexico now, living the good life. Good for them, I'm happy they are doing well, but it still doesn't change my opinion on the situation. Our government shoulders probably 75% of the blame for this. They are the idiots that have allowed this exploitation to occur for as long as it has. The funny thing is, one simple change in our system could eliminate almost all of the problems with illegals. IMPLEMENT SOME KIND OF SOCIAL SECURITY VERIFICATION SYSTEM. It is really that simple. All of these programs, employment, taxes, everything is tied into SS numbers. It is a crime that it is as easy as it is to fool the system with fake social security numbers. Shit, I bet if I wanted to, I could collect all of these benefits under a fake alias as well, and I make a pretty damn good living... All you really need is the check and an ID with a matching name on it. Nothing is verified for ****'s sake.

 

[PatrickSharpRules]

Listen man. Very few of the posters here are more than second generation citizens in this country. I imagine a bunch of us have grandparents or great-grandparents that immigrated here from another country. Three out of my four grandparents are immigrants from Europe. Two from Poland, and one from England. That doesn't change anything in this conversation. Those people came here legally and worked for what they earned. It was a totally different time in this country. They weren't getting welfare checks, WIC, food stamps, and government aid back in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. They were working their ASSES off, doing the jobs that had to be done. A lot of those people were also fleeing WAR TORN countries and PERSECUTION to come here. I don't understand how you can possibly compare immigrants from Europe 50+ years ago with the current situation we have with Mexican immigrants. It is apples to oranges.



Do you speak fluent Spanish? I do, and I hung out with many of these illegals in my teens and early twenties. The things they say amongst themselves, in Spanish, are the things I mentioned here. I had dinner with a lot of these folks. I hung out with them after work, traded favors with them, got drunk with them, etc. These were my friends. You learn a lot from people during your friendship with them. Things not many others know. I have no problem sharing these things now, because all but one or two of them are back in Mexico now, living the good life. Good for them, I'm happy they are doing well, but it still doesn't change my opinion on the situation. Our government shoulders probably 75% of the blame for this. They are the idiots that have allowed this exploitation to occur for as long as it has. The funny thing is, one simple change in our system could eliminate almost all of the problems with illegals. IMPLEMENT SOME KIND OF SOCIAL SECURITY VERIFICATION SYSTEM. It is really that simple. All of these programs, employment, taxes, everything is tied into SS numbers. It is a crime that it is as easy as it is to fool the system with fake social security numbers. Shit, I bet if I wanted to, I could collect all of these benefits under a fake alias as well, and I make a pretty damn good living... All you really need is the check and an ID with a matching name on it. Nothing is verified for ****'s sake.

I really don't understand the first paragraph its apples to apples, except it takes no effort to live illegally. As I said one of my great grandpa's was illegal. Mexico is a horrible country to live in right now, just like the ones our people came from. These people are working there asses off on jobs that have to be done. It was a totally different time, but the situations of the immigrants aren't drastic at all.



And I don't speak fluent spanish, I just know the swears and bullshit words. I do know these people have a easy time getting around the system, cause it is a joke. As I said when I was 18 with one phone call and 80 bucks I had one saying I was 21, they crack down harder on underage drinking. With every post you seem to start seeing that the idiots running our country are the ones to blame while these people have a why bother attitude.

 

[PatrickSharpRules]

lol, 12 to 14% who are you paying taxes to? Damn near 40% of my pay goes to the state and federal goverment.



let me put it to you strait up. I am a Veteran, a college graduate and I make 60k a year. I live in a 1 bedroom apartment, I have a new car. After i pay rent, Utilities, car payment, cell bill, cable bill, I seriously dont have a whole lot left a month, and after taxes I get about 3200 a month. It pisses me the **** off, I am simply amazed at how people support families. You are up for a rude awakening when it comes time to where you dont have the support of anyone but yourself.



Seriously dude money doesnt go very far, when I was in college it was easy for me to dismiss shit like this too, considering I made money to go to college. i couldnt imagine if I also had to pay back student loan debt on top of all this shit. Seriously they rape you for everything.

I don't have a career, I'm taking about a 350-400 dollar paycheck.



I know I am in for a rude awakening, but I also plan on living as cheap as I can for as long as I can. And won't you be in for a rude awakening when you have to support someone other than yourself too?

 

[jaxhawksfan]

I don't have a career, I'm taking about a 350-400 dollar paycheck.



I know I am in for a rude awakening, but I also plan on living as cheap as I can for as long as I can. And won't you be in for a rude awakening when you have to support someone other than yourself too?

Um, no, I think that's why he's pissed off already, because he can see what the future holds. Unlike you.

 

[supraman]

Depends on the time frame. If we are talking late 19th century early 20th century, native born Americans were just as nasty to the massive waves of European immigrants as many appear to be to mexican immigrants now.





Both sides of this argument like to quote mine, twist statistics, and use fear tactics to rally more to their cause.



Do I like the idea illegal immigrants are a drain on the system? No. Do I think most illegal mexican immigrants are nefarious characters? No. What needs to happen is a more secure border AND an easier path to citizenship. With citizenship they can pay taxes.



Don't get me wrong I am not mother Teresa over here, people should not be allowed to come into this country and have our tax dollars support them out of the goodness of our hearts, just because I have a pretty good life, nobody gave me that.



So you can say I understand and relate to both sides of the argument. I dont think just leavin them illegals alone is right, and I dont believe the Maginot line of the southwest along with mass deportations is the right course of action either.



Im hateful to though, I fucking despise polish immigrants, they smell like BO and speak that filthy pig latin, at least mexicans wash themselves and speak a language derived from the tongue of the civilized.

We have a winnah. Fix the problem not the symptom. I don't like illegals because their first act in this country is to break a law and enter illegally. Kinda puts a bad taste in my mouth. But the path to citizenship is expensive and very time consuming. It shouldn't be that way, we need to streamline it as much as possible

 

[jaxhawksfan]

We have a winnah. Fix the problem not the symptom. I don't like illegals because their first act in this country is to break a law and enter illegally. Kinda puts a bad taste in my mouth. But the path to citizenship is expensive and very time consuming. It shouldn't be that way, we need to streamline it as much as possible

I'm not going to disagree with your sentiment here, but I, as well as a few others here have gone through this process. Are there ways which it could be streamlined as you suggest? Sure there are. Is it too time consuming or too expensive? I don't think so. Anything as valuable as US Citizenship should not be taken lightly and shouldn't be sold at the corner store. My ex-wife's process to get her "green card" cost about $5,000 (because a lawyer was hired to make sure everything was done correctly) and took about 1.5 years. The eventual path to citizenship took a handful more years, but didn't really require much more money being spent. I don't believe that is too high of a price or burden for something so precious.

 

[LordKOTL]

No. What needs to happen is a more secure border AND an easier path to citizenship. With citizenship they can pay taxes.

As someone who is going through the proccess of petitioning for a foreigner to come over to the states, I can say unequivocably that this NEEDS to happen accros the board--not just in the US, but for all countries (I hear the EU is just as bad).



Really, with the B.S. we've been dealing with thus far, I can fully understand why someone would take the Arizona Express route into the US. The system needs to revamped into *real* standards rather than subjective ones, and anything subjective needs to be addressed through a hearing and appeal proccess.



Hell, I put the petiton in on July 3rd, and we *finally* passed the USCIS portion (onto the State Department portion) on Jan. 27th. We had plenty of efidence that we had a preexisting relationship, that we have met within the past 2 years, and had oodles of evidence and whatnot, yet we got the roto-rooter treatment. Our agent also said that in those he proceesed in the same timeframe, they pretty much all passed in November, and a few of those passed with nothing more than passport scans. (which we had as well).



There needs to be some consistancy here.





Sorry...rant off.

 

[MassHavoc]

If they are here, they are going to be here whether they are a citizen or not, so make them a citizen. Tax the shit out of them, make them get their own insurances. And treat them as shitty as any other citizen. Force them to make a living wage like everyone else, and maybe then so many people won't come here to take the jobs that others won't do.

Who cares, finite number of jobs, when the flood of people come in, they will have to turn around and go right back because even the shitty jobs will be full. I'm honestly surprised this hasn't happened already as a way to better catalog and track everyone in the US under some weird homeland security system. Would you rather have a billion immigrants floating around out there with illegal documents or completely off the radar, or 1 billion citizens who are fully documented and creating a footprint everywhere they go.

 

[supraman]

I'm not going to disagree with your sentiment here, but I, as well as a few others here have gone through this process. Are there ways which it could be streamlined as you suggest? Sure there are. Is it too time consuming or too expensive? I don't think so. Anything as valuable as US Citizenship should not be taken lightly and shouldn't be sold at the corner store. My ex-wife's process to get her "green card" cost about $5,000 (because a lawyer was hired to make sure everything was done correctly) and took about 1.5 years. The eventual path to citizenship took a handful more years, but didn't really require much more money being spent. I don't believe that is too high of a price or burden for something so precious.

My friend who I was basing this off of grew up in America (legally) and didn't get her citizenship until 17 I believe might have been later. That's the extent of my knowledge with her personal dealing with it. But I've heard the 5k number before so it seems that's a bit standard.



Now needing a lawyer is problem. that in itself is a problem. "....[font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]Give me your tired, your poor, [/font][font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, [/font][font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, [/font][font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, [/font][font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"[/font]

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[font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]That sounds a whole a lot different from "Drop 5k and a handful years and you can be a citizen"[/font]

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[font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]It should in fact be easy to become a citizen in this country. It should be very easy, shit they had it right at Ellis Island, how many people were processed a day?[/font]

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[font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]I watched a video (probably on Youtube) that I received in an email and it talked about immigration and at the currents rates how long will it be before the latin community is the majority. Believe it or not the video was very neutrally biased. But what stuck out to me was that polls show that Americans like immigrants that come here legally.[/font]

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[font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]I can agree with that, I don't look down on immigrant because i was born here. StuG is StuG to me, not StuG from Finland. Jax I never knew you immigrated here so yeah don't see you differently either.[/font]

 

[Tater]

If they are here, they are going to be here whether they are a citizen or not, so make them a citizen. Tax the shit out of them, make them get their own insurances. And treat them as shitty as any other citizen. Force them to make a living wage like everyone else, and maybe then so many people won't come here to take the jobs that others won't do.

Who cares, finite number of jobs, when the flood of people come in, they will have to turn around and go right back because even the shitty jobs will be full. I'm honestly surprised this hasn't happened already as a way to better catalog and track everyone in the US under some weird homeland security system. Would you rather have a billion immigrants floating around out there with illegal documents or completely off the radar, or 1 billion citizens who are fully documented and creating a footprint everywhere they go.

But how is that fair to the people that went through the process legitimately?

I have no problem with them changing the path to citizenship but only AFTER the borders are more secure.

We have probably been lucky so far that terrorists sneaking in aren't more of a problem....yet.

 

[MassHavoc]

But how is that fair to the people that went through the process legitimately?

I have no problem with them changing the path to citizenship but only AFTER the borders are more secure.

We have probably been lucky so far that terrorists sneaking in aren't more of a problem....yet.

Who cares about fair, the entire system is fucked up. Let everyone who wants to be a citizen be a citizen, then tax the shit out of like the rest of us so that we stop paying for them. We aren't going to be able to stop them from being here. So make them pay to be here. You take an illegal, who is here because they can make more money. Then you legitimize them, tax the shit out of them. And see if they can still make as much at the job paying them minimum wage. If you give a clear path to anyone who wants to be a citizen, then you can quickly and easily deport those who aren't.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

I was born in America, as were my parents and grandparents. My ex-wife was from Romania, and I have tons of Romanian friends. I agree with KOTL that there should be consistency. Each person that goes through the process has a different experience.



Sometimes people call me a hypocrite because one of my top 3 issues is illegal trespassers from Mexico and other Central/South American countries. I have no problem with, and even encourage legal immigration. The USA is a great country because we are a melting pot of other nations. However, there is a HUGE difference between people who come from other lands and want to be Americans in every sense of the word, and those who just hop the fence to work here, avail themselves of our social services, and send their money back home.

 

[Tater]

I was born in America, as were my parents and grandparents. My ex-wife was from Romania, and I have tons of Romanian friends. I agree with KOTL that there should be consistency. Each person that goes through the process has a different experience.



Sometimes people call me a hypocrite because one of my top 3 issues is illegal trespassers from Mexico and other Central/South American countries. I have no problem with, and even encourage legal immigration. The USA is a great country because we are a melting pot of other nations. However, there is a HUGE difference between people who come from other lands and want to be Americans in every sense of the word, and those who just hop the fence to work here, avail themselves of our social services, and send their money back home.

Thank you for perfectly summing up my opinions on this.

Couldn't have said it any better. +1