IST: Chicago Cubs (1-1) at Colorado Rockies (2-0)

[beckdawg]

Lemahieu can play third

And clearly they thought Stewart would be a better player for them at 3B which is why they made the trade. Whether DJ was better over the past 4 years than Stewart is complete hindsight and frankly inconsequential because A) DJ doesn't make the cubs competitive in any of the past 4 years, B) he's not a better player than Olt, Russell, Bryant, Castro, Baez or whomever you personally think is going to be the cubs 3B going forward C) he's not a better player than <insert player> who you think is going to be the cubs 2B going forward.

This is my entire point. The most DJ would be on the cubs is a bench player going forward if that. Jonathan Herrera is a career .262/.323/.328 hitter with a .292 wOBA and a 66 wRC+. He's a career 5.1 UZR/150 at 2B. The cubs signed him to a minor league deal this offseason so presumably he's making the league min and it cost them nothing to get him other than that. He's 30 compared to DJ's 26. Not sure that really matters but whatever. DJ is a career .281/.318/.364 hitter with a .298 wOBA and a 71 wRC+. He's got a career 10.1 career UZR/150. If you want to argue DJ is marginally better than Herrera fine. I'll concede that. All I'm suggesting here is a player relatively similar was picked off the street for nothing. You could additionally argue that Valbuena ended up replacing him anyways considering Stewart didn't work out and Valbuena got the playing time. He too was picked up off the street for nothing. He's a career .229/.312/.372 hitter with a .304 wOBA and a 87 wRC+ to go along with his -5.4 UZR/150 at 2B. In other words, it's not hard to find players of this value.

All of the players in the trade are literally roster fillers baring some huge breakout season from DJ which I'd be surprised to see. If that happens then fine I can see being upset over the deal. But until that point we're complaining about league minimum type players here.

 

[JimJohnson]

But keep in mind this is the exact tact the front office took trying to rehab Arrieta, Strop, Valbuena and various others with spectacular results.

Valbuena was a spectacular result? LOL..

He hit 219, 218, and 249 in 3 seasons with the Cubs.

 

[JimJohnson]

And clearly they thought Stewart would be a better player for them at 3B which is why they made the trade. Whether DJ was better over the past 4 years than Stewart is complete hindsight and frankly inconsequential because A) DJ doesn't make the cubs competitive in any of the past 4 years, B) he's not a better player than Olt, Russell, Bryant, Castro, Baez or whomever you personally think is going to be the cubs 3B going forward C) he's not a better player than <insert player> who you think is going to be the cubs 2B going forward.

This is my entire point. The most DJ would be on the cubs is a bench player going forward if that. Jonathan Herrera is a career .262/.323/.328 hitter with a .292 wOBA and a 66 wRC+. He's a career 5.1 UZR/150 at 2B. The cubs signed him to a minor league deal this offseason so presumably he's making the league min and it cost them nothing to get him other than that. He's 30 compared to DJ's 26. Not sure that really matters but whatever. DJ is a career .281/.318/.364 hitter with a .298 wOBA and a 71 wRC+. He's got a career 10.1 career UZR/150. If you want to argue DJ is marginally better than Herrera fine. I'll concede that. All I'm suggesting here is a player relatively similar was picked off the street for nothing. You could additionally argue that Valbuena ended up replacing him anyways considering Stewart didn't work out and Valbuena got the playing time. He too was picked up off the street for nothing. He's a career .229/.312/.372 hitter with a .304 wOBA and a 87 wRC+ to go along with his -5.4 UZR/150 at 2B. In other words, it's not hard to find players of this value.

All of the players in the trade are literally roster fillers baring some huge breakout season from DJ which I'd be surprised to see. If that happens then fine I can see being upset over the deal. But until that point we're complaining about league minimum type players here.

Beck I think you're being trolled to an extent here. People keep replying to you with 1 or 2 sentences and you come back with 3-4 paragraphs. Give it a rest bud.

 

[CSF77]

Lemahieu can play third

He was not a proven player at that point. I don't know how many time I've heard the lottery ticket mantra from poster(s) to accually feel good about it. (See Baez for ref)

 

[SilenceS]

He was not a proven player at that point. I don't know how many time I've heard the lottery ticket mantra from poster(s) to accually feel good about it. (See Baez for ref)

Cause he was 23. He is just starting his prime and I bet will hit close to .300 this year while maybe hanging another GG. He has that good of D at Second base.

 

[Boobaby1]

I believe that's essentially what I posted.

Well that's good, because there are only so many "scouts and analysts" and I know quite a few scouts. I also know that I personally like Russell a lot. Then again, I already said that in my post you quoted.

And the Yankees won how many WS?

Most fans of other teams, don't watch other teams enough to have a solid, educated opinion on other teams' players.

How many games did you have to watch of Milton Bradley to get an educated guess on him when he was with other teams?

What does the eye test for Jay Cutler reveal about his demeanor? Why do people as well as the media think that he looks disinterested?

You can argue all you want, but Castro is talked about more than he should be. It is not a coincidence that he has been reprimanded for his lapses by previous coaches (and maybe the FO) in the past, and the media has also ran with it, and continues to do it today.

The perception that his mind tends to sway away from the game is always going to be pegged to him, like it or not. :dunno:

 

[Parade_Rain]

And clearly they thought Stewart would be a better player for them at 3B which is why they made the trade.

Thanks, Captain Obvious. That's why the trigger is pulled on the great majority of trades.

Whether DJ was better over the past 4 years than Stewart is complete hindsight and frankly inconsequential because A) DJ doesn't make the cubs competitive in any of the past 4 years, B) he's not a better player than Olt, Russell, Bryant, Castro, Baez or whomever you personally think is going to be the cubs 3B going forward C) he's not a better player than <insert player> who you think is going to be the cubs 2B going forward.

He's so inconsequential, Epstein commented that the trade was bad.

This is my entire point. The most DJ would be on the cubs is a bench player going forward if that. Jonathan Herrera is a career .262/.323/.328 hitter with a .292 wOBA and a 66 wRC+. He's a career 5.1 UZR/150 at 2B. The cubs signed him to a minor league deal this offseason so presumably he's making the league min and it cost them nothing to get him other than that. He's 30 compared to DJ's 26. Not sure that really matters but whatever. DJ is a career .281/.318/.364 hitter with a .298 wOBA and a 71 wRC+. He's got a career 10.1 career UZR/150. If you want to argue DJ is marginally better than Herrera fine. I'll concede that. All I'm suggesting here is a player relatively similar was picked off the street for nothing. You could additionally argue that Valbuena ended up replacing him anyways considering Stewart didn't work out and Valbuena got the playing time. He too was picked up off the street for nothing. He's a career .229/.312/.372 hitter with a .304 wOBA and a 87 wRC+ to go along with his -5.4 UZR/150 at 2B. In other words, it's not hard to find players of this value.

Your entire point is to write a frigging book defending a trade that even the person who made the trade said wasn't a good one so in hindsight that trade wouldn't happen.

All of the players in the trade are literally roster fillers baring some huge breakout season from DJ which I'd be surprised to see. If that happens then fine I can see being upset over the deal. But until that point we're complaining about league minimum type players here.

Trading players and replacing them with more of the same is a waste of organizational energy.

 

[Parade_Rain]

How many games did you have to watch of Milton Bradley to get an educated guess on him when he was with other teams?

I didn't have to watch games. I didn't like his attitude.

What does the eye test for Jay Cutler reveal about his demeanor? Why do people as well as the media think that he looks disinterested?

There wasn't an eye test about Cutler. There was no reason to get rid of Orton. The OL needed to get fixed before worrying about another QB and wasting 1st round draft picks.

You can argue all you want, but Castro is talked about more than he should be. It is not a coincidence that he has been reprimanded for his lapses by previous coaches (and maybe the FO) in the past, and the media has also ran with it, and continues to do it today.

And he's still a young player. When Russell comes up, he won't be as young, but he's still a young player who will make mistakes. That's why he isn't moving off of SS this season.

The perception that his mind tends to sway away from the game is always going to be pegged to him, like it or not. :dunno:

This is a strawman.

 

[SilenceS]

How many games did you have to watch of Milton Bradley to get an educated guess on him when he was with other teams?

What does the eye test for Jay Cutler reveal about his demeanor? Why do people as well as the media think that he looks disinterested?

You can argue all you want, but Castro is talked about more than he should be. It is not a coincidence that he has been reprimanded for his lapses by previous coaches (and maybe the FO) in the past, and the media has also ran with it, and continues to do it today.

The perception that his mind tends to sway away from the game is always going to be pegged to him, like it or not. :dunno:

Funny, because I hear the exact opposite. Rockies broadcast the other day. They praised him up and down.

 

[Boobaby1]

I didn't have to watch games. I didn't like his attitude.

So did you see the games Bradley was in, or did you catch it on Sports Center which is my point?

You had stated that people don't watch enough games to have an educated guess, but you didn't like Milton Bradley's attitude? How many Milton Bradley games did you see prior to the Cubs signing him to form an opinion?

 

[Boobaby1]

Funny, because I hear the exact opposite. Rockies broadcast the other day. They praised him up and down.

Funny. I heard the Sunday night baseball broadcast that had former baseball players commentating. They weren't praising Castro.

I believe they stated that he could move to 2B, 3B, or another team. Don't know why they would say that?

 

[Parade_Rain]

So did you see the games Bradley was in, or did you catch it on Sports Center which is my point?

You had stated that people don't watch enough games to have an educated guess, but you didn't like Milton Bradley's attitude? How many Milton Bradley games did you see prior to the Cubs signing him to form an opinion?

Here's what I didn't like-

Montreal Expos (2000–2001)
Cleveland Indians (2001–2003)
Los Angeles Dodgers (2004–2005)
Oakland Athletics (2006–2007)
San Diego Padres (2007)
Texas Rangers (2008)

That track record told me that as talented as the guy was, there was something wrong with him in the concept of team, if teams were willing to let that talent go so quickly. Too many stops along the way. I didn't watch one ball game. This is simple Employer 101 stuff.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Funny. I heard the Sunday night baseball broadcast that had former baseball players commentating. They weren't praising Castro.

I believe they stated that he could move to 2B, 3B, or another team. Don't know why they would say that?

It's ESPN. They always stir crap up. Olney is the only one suggesting anything about trades with Castro. Who does he work for?

 

[SilenceS]

Funny. I heard the Sunday night baseball broadcast that had former baseball players commentating. They weren't praising Castro.

I believe they stated that he could move to 2B, 3B, or another team. Don't know why they would say that?

Are you talking John Kruk and Curt Schilling? Castro already said last year that he would move off SS if it made the Cubs a better team. He told Theo and them that straight up. They have repeatedly told him that they have no plans to move him. So, now you are going by a couple of ESPN analyst who arent very good in the first place as your hard evidence. Can you say you just dont like Castro and thats why you always have these discussions. lol

 

[TC in Mississippi]

What does the eye test for Jay Cutler reveal about his demeanor? Why do people as well as the media think that he looks disinterested?

You can argue all you want, but Castro is talked about more than he should be. It is not a coincidence that he has been reprimanded for his lapses by previous coaches (and maybe the FO) in the past, and the media has also ran with it, and continues to do it today.

The perception that his mind tends to sway away from the game is always going to be pegged to him, like it or not. :dunno:

See but you're pointing out one of the worst flaws of today's sports media. They fixate on an issue and define players by that issue. That way, when they're setting up their storylines for a game, they can cast the player in the light they've chosen. With Russell getting close they've got an even juicier storyline with the young buck coming to take his job. It's nonsense and to feed into it is silly. Are there concerns with Castro's game? Sure, there aren't too many players without any, but he's an average defender at worst and coming into his prime as a hitter. His value to the Cubs is very high at SS and he'd be an upgrade at the position for 2/3 of the teams in the game if not more. That's not to say he can't get better, that's not to say he doesn't have the mental lapses that the national media has pinned on him, what it does say is that this kid at 25 years old his a well above average SS. If Russell ends up being better then so be it, that will prove itself out, but for this year he's their guy at the position and no nonsense from the national media is going to change that. I'm not saying he won't be traded, I'm pretty sure only Kris Bryant and Anthony Rizzo are untouchable from a position player standpoint, I'm just saying it's unlikely that the Cubs would move Castro in a year they're just figuring things out. He's a veteran at the position and he's not the extreme liability that the national media likes to paint him as. In fact one of the reasons his value is higher to the Cubs than it might be in trade is that perception and if you look at some of the proposed trades that Olney and others wrote about over the winter you'd see that. The reality is they're not going to give this kid away, he is high level starting SS in MLB and Addison Russell has a lot of options as to where he can play. Russell may very well play SS for the Chicago Cubs but it won't be in 2015 as a trade seems unlikely and they're not going to embarrass a high performing veteran by moving him off his position for a rookie.

 

[SilenceS]

See but you're pointing out one of the worst flaws of the today's sports media. They fixate on an issue and define players by that issue. That way, when they're setting up their storylines for a game, they can cast the player in the light they've chosen. With Russell getting close they've got an even juicier storyline with the young buck coming to take his job. It's nonsense and to feed into it is silly. Are there concerns with Castro's game? Sure, there aren't too many players without any, but he's an average defender at worst and coming into his prime as a hitter. His value to the Cubs is very high at SS and he'd be an upgrade at the position for 2/3 of the teams in the game if not more. That's not to say he can't get better, that's not to say he doesn't have the mental lapses that the national media has pinned on him, what it does say is that this kid at 25 years old his a well above average SS. If Russell ends up being better then so be it, that will prove itself out, but for this year he's their guy at the position and no nonsense from the national media is going to change that. I'm not saying he won't be traded, I'm pretty sure only Kris Bryant and Anthony Rizzo are untouchable from a position player standpoint, I'm just saying it's unlikely that the Cubs would move Castro in a year they're just figuring things out. He's a veteran at the position and he's not the extreme liability that the national media likes to pain him as. In fact one of the reasons his value is higher to the Cubs than it might be in trade is that perception and if you look at some of the proposed trades that Olney and others wrote about over the winter you'd see that. The relaity is they're not going to give this kid away, he is high level starting SS in MLB and Addison Russell has a lot of options as to where he can play. Russell may very well play SS for the Chicago Cubs but it won't be in 2015 as a trade seems unlikely and they're not going to embarrass a high performing veteran by moving him off his position for a rookie.

:clap:

 

[beckdawg]

Trading players and replacing them with more of the same is a waste of organizational energy.

Whether Theo says he'd make the trade again or not really doesn't matter to me. If it wasn't for Ian Stewart they would have made the trade for some other 3B because they had no other option there and apparently didn't have the money to spend there. Nothing Colvin or DJ have done since would make them off limits in a trade. If you can't understand that then I don't know what else to say. That's why it's an inconsequential trade.

Edit: I'll leave the subject like this. If you want bemoan the cubs for trading a player who has 2 fWAR over 1300 PAs then fine. That is your right. I just feel that he's not a loss just like Barney wasn't a loss and Theriot before him wasn't a loss. Maybe there was a better offer out there than Stewart. Maybe not. At the end of the day, they needed a 3B and scouts viewed Stewart as having quality skills in the past. The cubs took a chance on him hoping to pull them out of him. I'm never going to kill the team for taking a chance on a talented guy who's underperformed in the hopes they can get more out of him so long as the cost is reasonable. This trade didn't work out. But trades like the Arrieta trade has shown what happens when it does.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Whether Theo says he'd make the trade again or not really doesn't matter to me. If it wasn't for Ian Stewart they would have made the trade for some other 3B because they had no other option there and apparently didn't have the money to spend there. Nothing Colvin or DJ have done since would make them off limits in a trade. If you can't understand that then I don't know what else to say. That's why it's an inconsequential trade.

 

[beckdawg]

Hey, i feel you. That's how I feel about people complaining about losing DJ like he's some sort of star.

 

[Boobaby1]

It's ESPN. They always stir crap up. Olney is the only one suggesting anything about trades with Castro. Who does he work for?

Well, this was just another one that was reported, and of all places, Sports Den written by a Cubs fan. Furthermore, if you don't think Olney has connections, you are sadly mistaken.

Julie DiCaro of The Score/CBS Sports writes that Cubs fans don't give Starlin Castro enough credit. Yes, he is a mediocre defender, but his offensive contributions at the position more than make up for it and make him a positive asset overall.

Speaking of Castro, I spoke to one scout from a rival team who opines that, should the Cubs decide to trade him, the perception of Castro may make it difficult for the Cubs to get good value in return. He didn't say it was a league-wide perception, but he admitted that he personally has doubts. As I have said in the past, it is up to Castro to quell those doubts. It's a big year for him.

opcorn: