IST: Chicago Cubs (25-35) at Pittsburgh Pirates (29-33) (June 9-June 12)

How many games do the Cubs win?

  • Cubs Sweep!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cubs win 4 (Go Team Meatball!)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cubs win 1

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    5
  • Poll closed .

Captain Obvious

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jul 31, 2010
Posts:
4,967
Liked Posts:
697
:enough:

If you couldn't follow along that I was implying Bryant isn't ready for the MLB level, I give up.

And the fact you defend ownership being cheap instead of building the best product is sad for a fan.

I understand that you're saying he's not ready for the MLB level. I just don't understand why. He's destroying AA. Either give a reason why he needs AAA, or stop trolling.

So I should be naive about it and just expect them to spend all the money in the world because that will make me a good fan?

I'd much rather they be smart about it and have extra money to do other things with than waste it on a player in a situation that is avoidable. If that makes me a bad fan, then I'm a bad fan.
 

nwfisch

Hall of Famer
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Nov 12, 2010
Posts:
25,053
Liked Posts:
11,503
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Minnesota United FC
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Notre Dame Fighting Irish
I understand that you're saying he's not ready for the MLB level. I just don't understand why. He's destroying AA. Either give a reason why he needs AAA, or stop trolling.

So I should be naive about it and just expect them to spend all the money in the world because that will make me a good fan?

I'd much rather they be smart about it and have extra money to do other things with than waste it on a player in a situation that is avoidable. If that makes me a bad fan, then I'm a bad fan.
I guess I'm old school in the belief that if a guy hits a HR in 8 straight games at AA, leading the AA in major statistical categories, he should get a promotion.

He can figure out the defense at AAA I'm sure.

What can they do other things with extra money?
 

Captain Obvious

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jul 31, 2010
Posts:
4,967
Liked Posts:
697
I guess I'm old school in the belief that if a guy hits a HR in 8 straight games at AA, leading the AA in major statistical categories, he should get a promotion.

He can figure out the defense at AAA I'm sure.

What can they do other things with extra money?

Okay and then you stunt Villanueva's development. Is there a difference in playing defense at 3rd in AA vs. AAA?

Buy pitching, buy another bat, pay for Shark, pay for an extension for Baez, there are many things they can do with money. It's pretty neat.
 

JZsportsfan

New member
Joined:
Mar 31, 2013
Posts:
2,503
Liked Posts:
674
Location:
Chicago
Then they should package Villanueva in a trade to get more in return because he isn't going to be a 3B for the long haul in Chicago anyways
 

chibears55

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 18, 2013
Posts:
13,554
Liked Posts:
1,915
Beckdawg. . I think your over analyzing this too much..
If you have a kick ass player who dominating and his position is open , most teams don't care about suoer 2 garbage and bring the kid up.. ( bryce harper, mike trout)
if he handles himself he stays , if he struggles he sent back down...

Why is it dumb to worry about? If you don't have to spend the extra money, why do it? If you're going to do it, at least make it worth while. How does bringing Bryant up pre-Super 2 status benefit the team? It doesn't. Sure, we might get a few more wins this year. So what? We're not going to the playoffs. It doesn't benefit

bringing Bryant up for the last couple months mostly helps bryant get an early taste of major league action without any real pressure to perform...

helps the team by knowing if he can handle it or not and that could be one less position they need to worry about filling in off season. .. money spent elsewhere


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk
 

X

When one letter is enough
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
May 12, 2010
Posts:
24,664
Liked Posts:
7,783
Then they should package Villanueva in a trade to get more in return because he isn't going to be a 3B for the long haul in Chicago anyways

but then we'd lose our minds for trading a ML player...
 

Captain Obvious

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jul 31, 2010
Posts:
4,967
Liked Posts:
697
Beckdawg. . I think your over analyzing this too much..
If you have a kick ass player who dominating and his position is open , most teams don't care about suoer 2 garbage and bring the kid up.. ( bryce harper, mike trout)
if he handles himself he stays , if he struggles he sent back down...



bringing Bryant up for the last couple months mostly helps bryant get an early taste of major league action without any real pressure to perform...

helps the team by knowing if he can handle it or not and that could be one less position they need to worry about filling in off season. .. money spent elsewhere


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk

I'm all for bringing up Bryant this year. But does bringing him up now vs. in a month make that much big of a difference to him and to this season? If we wait a month we save millions over the next 6 years. That's worth a month of Olt at 3rd in a season where we aren't going to the playoffs regardless.
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,750
Liked Posts:
3,741
Beckdawg. . I think your over analyzing this too much..

You're welcome to your opinion. But the fact of the matter is if it was not a big deal teams would call up players whenever they wanted and they rarely do. In the cases you cite, Harper didn't sign a traditional contract out of the draft.

As reported by Adam Kilgore of the Washington Post, Harper signed with the Nationals in 2010 just minutes before the deadline for clubs to sign draft picks. He agreed to a five-year, $9.9 million contract -- a major-league contract, which is rare for draftees.

As such, Harper wouldn't even be eligible for super two regardless. Trout on the other hand wouldn't have earned super two. This is part of the issue his agent had with the team because in his third year he was set to make $510,000 and this season would have made $1,000,000 before they did the long term deal with him but still wasn't eligible for arbitration.

This year the biggest super 2 guys were Hosmer and Belt. The year prior to that the biggest player to reach super 2 was Everth Cabrera. Year prior to that biggest guys were Jay Bruce and Chase Headley. In the case of Trout and Belt, both have a very similar amount of time. Both came up in 2011. However the difference between them is Trout currently has 2 years 70 days of service time and Belt has 2 years 128 days of service time. You're talking about 58 days on the active roster. That was a difference between 63 games for Belt in 2011 and 40 for Trout.

I get why people are impatient. But you're often talking about less than 30 games. Most players will struggle to put up 1 WAR in 30 games. If you look at someone like Bruce who was a super two guy, his first arbitration year would have likely cost around $500k without super two. He signed a long term deal like you would suggest. Instead of $2,791,666, $5 mil, $7.5 mil, $10 mil, $12 mil he got from his deal he would likely have been more like $500k, $2.8 mil, $5 mil, $7.5 mil, and $10 mil. So something as little as 30 games can cost a $11.5 mil difference over 5 years.

That doesn't seem like a lot of money. It's only like $2.2 mil per year right? Well consider that Jackson got a 4 year $48 mill contract and Sanchez who was their first choice got $58.2 over the first 4 years of his deal. Perhaps that's cherry picking an example but it goes to show how little things make a big difference. If Castro hadn't achieved as much service time in his first 2 years maybe the front office has enough money to compete and grab Sanchez. Like I said, I get the concept that there is no cap on what you can spend. But, I just gave an example of a way this current cubs could have been better within the salary confines had they waited roughly 80 days in 2011 to call Castro up.
 

chibears55

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 18, 2013
Posts:
13,554
Liked Posts:
1,915
I'm all for bringing up Bryant this year. But does bringing him up now vs. in a month make that much big of a difference to him and to this season? If we wait a month we save millions over the next 6 years. That's worth a month of Olt at 3rd in a season where we aren't going to the playoffs regardless.
didn't realize you were only talking a month from now.. my thoughts were they were gonna wait til after they start trading players which would be at some point beginning of July before they decide to move baez bryant and maybe alcantara. .
so to answer your question above no it don't make a difference. .

As far as Olt goes , his struggles has got to him mentally and until he fixes that part of his game ( mental approach) he never gonna make it..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
4,579
Location:
Hell
While I can agree with some of what you're saying, this is just wrong. The Yankees were the largest market in baseball and they couldn't afford to keep Cano who was one of their guys. Whether people recognize it or not, this sort of financial stuff does matter. I'll be the first to say super two is Special person because it hurts the player and it hurts teams. But, it is a major thing.

What do you mean they couldn't afford? I saw it more as they learned from giving monster contracts that do not match production, no?
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
4,579
Location:
Hell
Why is it dumb to worry about? If you don't have to spend the extra money, why do it? If you're going to do it, at least make it worth while. How does bringing Bryant up pre-Super 2 status benefit the team? It doesn't. Sure, we might get a few more wins this year. So what? We're not going to the playoffs. It doesn't benefit us.

You are wrong, it's almost all benefit. Bryant is wasting away in AA. There's nothing more for him there. It's time he moves up to at least AAA, but let's say the Bigs for argument's sake.

You waive Olt and say thanks for the memories. You then give Bryant the everyday 3b position. He plays what's left of the season and provides ideally glimpses into the future or maybe he starts off as a super stud which would be even better. Now in the off season free agents and players that have the Cubs on their no trade list might, just might consider waiving it to go to the Cubs. They got potential and an outside player might see the Cubs as a viable option again. It moves the big league club along further which is ALWAYS (that excludes the word NEVER) a good thing when you are in the position that the Cubs are in.

You want to save money by not taking the asparagus over the mixed veggies while having visions of your burger turning into a filet mignon at dinner.

This is the Chris Rock comedy hour when he wants a deal for one rib implying he is short on money then asks the establishment if they have change for a $100.00 bill.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
4,579
Location:
Hell
OK, I want to give major Kudos to Zack. In the IST he did his best to right a ship that got hijacked by all of us into a Bryant discussion.

Sorry Zack.

:clap:
 

CSF77

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
18,664
Liked Posts:
2,845
Location:
San Diego
When you go to extend players it's based on service time. If you are on pace for super 2 then you're paying substantially more for one of the years. It's not a case where you can say well the guy is good and we can just avoid that by signing him long term. You pay for it either way if they already have the service time. The only way this isn't the case if you do something like the Astros did with Singleton by signing him before he plays. However, players generally wont do this and in fact many are criticizing Singleton for not betting on himself.

People can say well the extra arbitration year is what maybe $5-10 mil more? In the case of the cubs this year, that's Hammel and Bonifacio. Like I said, if you're doing it one time because the player is the difference between a championship and not fine. But, if you start hitting it with multiple players then your ability to add other players with them is severely limited.

Right now they are limited but by the time he comes up the new signs should be up and they would be out of the WGN contracts.

You act like this money strap is a forever thing.

Not to mention how many years are left on the forced merger?
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,750
Liked Posts:
3,741
What do you mean they couldn't afford? I saw it more as they learned from giving monster contracts that do not match production, no?

Perhaps. However, the motivation behind it isn't really the point. The point was people were suggesting big market teams shouldn't care about costs and can afford their players. Whatever the motivation, Cano isn't a yankee anymore.
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,750
Liked Posts:
3,741
Right now they are limited but by the time he comes up the new signs should be up and they would be out of the WGN contracts.

You act like this money strap is a forever thing.

Not to mention how many years are left on the forced merger?

I act that way because until proven otherwise this is what the team is. Look, I'm not the one to constantly bash ownership as being cheap. However, the team isn't spending the kind off money you would expect from a bigger market team. Maybe they do in the near future. But, maybe they don't. And maybe if they do spend more it's only $10-20 mil more. Point here being that until they do it you shouldn't expect anything.

And whether or not they will have more money is beside the point. As I illustrated with the Belt vs Trout example, you're talking about around 30 games most of the time. How many situations is the team realistically going to be in where 1 player over 30 games is the difference? Again, I know some don't buy into the concept of WAR but it suggests that a Rizzo level player this year would be worth around 1 win over a 4A player over 30 or so games. Now there's some examples you could make where 1 win makes a difference. However, it's not going to be often that those examples will feature a 4A player as a starter. Typically, if you're going to be fringe playoffs you're going to be average or better at most positions. Sometimes you may have a superstar or two and then you might see a 4A type on a potential playoff team. But again, that's more the exception than the rule.

So, barring a few niche cases, you're most of the time not getting much out of promoting someone prior to the super two date and it can cost you $10 mil or more depending on the case. There's relatively few cases where it makes sense. But, Bryant and Baez definitely aren't. And no one for the foreseeable future is as of yet either.
 

CSF77

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
18,664
Liked Posts:
2,845
Location:
San Diego
Lets say they end up with a 130 mil payroll after everything is said and done. There is also tax issues going on with the city and coding issues that will persist. This is why they should get out of the city and out of Chicago city code red tape.

Like build a new stadium and sense Wrigg is a historical site play there say 20 games out of 81. Day games. Keep it traditional.

Then play the bulk is a modern facility where they have 100% control of revenue resource. Revinue generated by Stadium naming rights. Not dealing with noise ordnance due to the park being built in residential land...dumbest thing ever.

And so on.

These are things I would do to fix the long term projections.

Sure they want to play in Wrigg for another 100 years. Stuck in the middle of a bunch of bureaucrats telling them how to run their business. Sounds like a winning plan.
 

Captain Obvious

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jul 31, 2010
Posts:
4,967
Liked Posts:
697
You are wrong, it's almost all benefit. Bryant is wasting away in AA. There's nothing more for him there. It's time he moves up to at least AAA, but let's say the Bigs for argument's sake.

You waive Olt and say thanks for the memories. You then give Bryant the everyday 3b position. He plays what's left of the season and provides ideally glimpses into the future or maybe he starts off as a super stud which would be even better. Now in the off season free agents and players that have the Cubs on their no trade list might, just might consider waiving it to go to the Cubs. They got potential and an outside player might see the Cubs as a viable option again. It moves the big league club along further which is ALWAYS (that excludes the word NEVER) a good thing when you are in the position that the Cubs are in.

You want to save money by not taking the asparagus over the mixed veggies while having visions of your burger turning into a filet mignon at dinner.

This is the Chris Rock comedy hour when he wants a deal for one rib implying he is short on money then asks the establishment if they have change for a $100.00 bill.

You still haven't addressed how you know that FAs don't want to come here. If the Cubs offer the most money, why wouldn't they?

I'm all for giving Bryant the everyday 3B job. In about a month. It's not worth 11 million dollars to give it to him now. That's just the example that was used early, but a months worth of games are not worth it. If Bryant is going to produce this year, he'll still do it in a month. Again, if you move Bryant up to AAA, then Villanueva is screwed. That's also not worth it.

No one has mentioned any reason why Bryant should be at AAA, what benefits does he get by playing there? The best reasoning for moving him up to the MLB now is that it will get us FAs to come here in the offseason... that's bullshit. You don't know that. Unless you have talked to these FAs. Sure it might cause someone to waive a NTC. But who exactly are we trading for?... We're obviously going to be sellers at the deadline.
 

nwfisch

Hall of Famer
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Nov 12, 2010
Posts:
25,053
Liked Posts:
11,503
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Minnesota United FC
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Notre Dame Fighting Irish
You still haven't addressed how you know that FAs don't want to come here. If the Cubs offer the most money, why wouldn't they?

I'm all for giving Bryant the everyday 3B job. In about a month. It's not worth 11 million dollars to give it to him now. That's just the example that was used early, but a months worth of games are not worth it. If Bryant is going to produce this year, he'll still do it in a month. Again, if you move Bryant up to AAA, then Villanueva is screwed. That's also not worth it.

No one has mentioned any reason why Bryant should be at AAA, what benefits does he get by playing there? The best reasoning for moving him up to the MLB now is that it will get us FAs to come here in the offseason... that's bullshit. You don't know that. Unless you have talked to these FAs. Sure it might cause someone to waive a NTC. But who exactly are we trading for?... We're obviously going to be sellers at the deadline.

Really? We're really concerned about Villaneuva's development more than we are about Kris Bryant's?
 

CSF77

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
18,664
Liked Posts:
2,845
Location:
San Diego
And whether or not they will have more money is beside the point. As I illustrated with the Belt vs Trout example, you're talking about around 30 games most of the time. How many situations is the team realistically going to be in where 1 player over 30 games is the difference? Again, I know some don't buy into the concept of WAR but it suggests that a Rizzo level player this year would be worth around 1 win over a 4A player over 30 or so games. Now there's some examples you could make where 1 win makes a difference. However, it's not going to be often that those examples will feature a 4A player as a starter. Typically, if you're going to be fringe playoffs you're going to be average or better at most positions. Sometimes you may have a superstar or two and then you might see a 4A type on a potential playoff team. But again, that's more the exception than the rule.

It have more to do with extending the line up past Rizzo.

Take last nights game:

Bonifacio: .268
Lake: .242
Rizzo .284
Castro .277
Ruggiano .246
Olt .151
Barney .200

That is your line up. 3 hitters batting over .250. 4 of those hitter are in a favoritable platoon where they should be having the advantage.

God ricky is dumb. It is like running his head into a brick wall every day and saying it will work the next one regarding these platoons. Swear he should look into Deming's theory.
 

nwfisch

Hall of Famer
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Nov 12, 2010
Posts:
25,053
Liked Posts:
11,503
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Minnesota United FC
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Notre Dame Fighting Irish
I'm sure the Angels are glad they held Mike Trout back.
 
Top