IST: Cubs @ Kansas City

[CSF77]

a) OBA/OBP is a component of OPS. If they look at OPS, Javy ranks well, in spite of the OBP.

b) He doesn't enough GG consideration because he plays multiple positions, but he is great at all of them.

c) Pitching IS in consideration for MVP - and I think they already have that award, so I wish it wasn't.

OBA and SLG are not equal values so OPS is a faulty bench mark. If you want to have conversations on metrics is starts with wOBA and gets deeper with wRC+

 

[CSF77]

Not disagreeing with your prognosis, just the way the award is perceived. It's not just an offensive award or at least it shouldn't be. It should be an all around award where offense, defense and baserunning have equal parts. While both Goldy and Freeman are good fielders, they do not change games with their defense and they certainly don't with their baserunning. Baez has won games on all three parts and has done it multiple times on each. The season he's having is very unique and something that neither Goldy or Freeman are in any way capable of.

Don’t get me wrong. I love Javy’s game and even Hamels said that he had a Hall of fame 3B for years and Javy is bordering that territory.

But there are 2 things working against him.

1. Doesn’t take walks. Even 8% would be acceptable. It shows too agressive. (Under 4% current)

2. Not a set position. Making great plays is fantastic. But when compared to his peers well what is he?

 

[Diehardfan]

Don’t get me wrong. I love Javy’s game and even Hamels said that he had a Hall of fame 3B for years and Javy is bordering that territory.

But there are 2 things working against him.

1. Doesn’t take walks. Even 8% would be acceptable. It shows too agressive.

2. Not a set position. Making great plays is fantastic. But when compared to his peers well what is he?

Ahhh, but once again this makes him more "valuable". How many positions can Goldy or Freeman play? Plus they are always 2, 3 or 4 on the lineup card where Baez bats seemingly everywhere. What's wrong with aggressive? How many times has Baez taken a pitch out of the strike zone and drove it down the line to drive in runs? He takes a walk in those situations and it falls on someone else to do the job....that's not what MVPs do.

 

[CSF77]

Ahhh, but once again this makes him more "valuable". How many positions can Goldy or Freeman play? Plus they are always 2, 3 or 4 on the lineup card where Baez bats seemingly everywhere. What's wrong with aggressive? How many times has Baez taken a pitch out of the strike zone and drove it down the line to drive in runs? He takes a walk in those situations and it falls on someone else to do the job....that's not what MVPs do.

More valuable to Joe’s method. Joe doesn’t hold a vote.

Again don’t get me wrong. I love the guy. But...

 

[fatbeard]

OBA and SLG are not equal values so OPS is a faulty bench mark. If you want to have conversations on metrics is starts with wOBA and gets deeper with wRC+

wRC+ is a much better stat, IMO. It's easier to understand; 100 is an average player and 110 is 10% better than average, etc. With wOBA you have to remember arbitrary ranges that don't make much sense. It also takes park factors into account, while wOBA doesn't.

 

[chibears55]

Bote Ball continues

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[bamainatlanta]

San Diego up 7-5 in top 7th over Brew Crew.
Is it San Degan or San Diegoite?

 

[CSF77]

San Diego up 7-5 in top 7th over Brew Crew.
Is it San Degan or San Diegoite?

San Diegoian

 

[CSF77]

wRC+ is a much better stat, IMO. It's easier to understand; 100 is an average player and 110 is 10% better than average, etc. With wOBA you have to remember arbitrary ranges that don't make much sense. It also takes park factors into account, while wOBA doesn't.

Fair enough

 

[CSF77]

But using wRC+ as a gauge:

1. Carpenter: 160
2. Suarez: 154
3. Yelich: 147
4. Freeman: 146
5. Arenado: 143
6. Aguilar: 142
7. Baez: 141
8. Goldscmidt: 140

I really think it is hard to argue against Matt right now.

 

[bamainatlanta]

San Diego's leadoff hitter with 5RBI as SD scores 11 runs from innings 3 thru 9 after giving up a 4spot in the first

 

[bamainatlanta]

But using wRC+ as a gauge:

1. Carpenter: 160
2. Suarez: 154
3. Yelich: 147
4. Freeman: 146
5. Arenado: 143
6. Aguilar: 142
7. Baez: 141
8. Goldscmidt: 140

I really think it is hard to argue against Matt right now.

The amazing part is that he started off so freaking terrible this year until about mid-May

 

[bamainatlanta]

San Diegoian

[video=youtube_share;X7E4surv9ic]https://youtu.be/X7E4surv9ic[/video]

 

[chibears55]

But using wRC+ as a gauge:

1. Carpenter: 160
2. Suarez: 154
3. Yelich: 147
4. Freeman: 146
5. Arenado: 143
6. Aguilar: 142
7. Baez: 141
8. Goldscmidt: 140

I really think it is hard to argue against Matt right now.

The argument i heard against Carpenter was that he struggled bad his first 2 months, so they may use that against him...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[PickSix]

Bote Ball continues

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

KB = Wally Pipp.

 

[TL1961]

Womp womp.

Next time, pick a hill to die on that can't be disproved with two minutes of research.

Your research is to use a stat, WAR, that only recently became available to compare players’ seasons from decades ago.

Nobody had Arky Vaughn’s WAR when they voted.

That being said, WAR is still an imperfect measurement. Baez is better than Matt Capenter defensively and as a baserunner and it’s not remotely close. But Carpenter has a higher WAR due greatly to walls.

I get the obp importance, but there is no way he has been more valuable when he is so flawed in so many categories: glove, arm, baserunning.

 

[CSF77]

KB = Wally Pipp.

Doubtful

 

[anotheridiot]

The argument i heard against Carpenter was that he struggled bad his first 2 months, so they may use that against him...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

So Baez and Carpenter struggled, Freeman will split votes with his Atlanta team mate, I guess that leaves Suarez.

 

[fatbeard]

Your research is to use a stat, WAR, that only recently became available to compare players’ seasons from decades ago.

Nobody had Arky Vaughn’s WAR when they voted.

Irrelevant; Vaughn still beat Hartnett on the all counting stats that were available at the time. AVG, H, HR, R, RBI, OBP, SLG...pick your poison.

That being said, WAR is still an imperfect measurement. Baez is better than Matt Capenter defensively and as a baserunner and it’s not remotely close. But Carpenter has a higher WAR due greatly to walls.

I get the obp importance, but there is no way he has been more valuable when he is so flawed in so many categories: glove, arm, baserunning.

All stats that aren't counting stats are imperfect, it's just a question of how imperfect they are. WAR is pretty good, but has flaws (bWAR has Cain as the NL MVP!) But this makes my point: When you have a cluster of players with similar WARs, it's fine to look at other factors that might differentiate their seasons when considering the MVP.

 

[CSF77]

The argument i heard against Carpenter was that he struggled bad his first 2 months, so they may use that against him...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

Means little. What factors is how the team does imo. Dawson was a exception to the rule because he was clearly better then the rest. But when you look at a group of 5 guys then you start nit picking. Like are they a contender or not. Is that player the main cog or a product of a strong support cast.

Baez has a strong arguement here. Carpenter may be the correct choice today but the Cards blow and Carpenter is not producing at Trout’s level that supersedes any team concideration.