brett05
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As a piece perhaps.
As a piece perhaps.
TC in Mississippi
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I stand corrected. Depending on sources Marcus Semien was as high as #3 to start last year and as low as #5.
TC in Mississippi
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So once they win a Cy Young they're an ace forever? I'm not sure what your saying. There are guys who are an ace for a year or two and fall off, there are guys who are a team's stud for several years but that I would never call an ace. Semantics I suppose.
brett05
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No. Pitchers are never an ace for life. Ex....Nolan Ryan was an Ace. Same with Maddux. Not at the end of their careers though. Like I said, your definition needs work.
TC in Mississippi
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As near as I can tell I didn't define an ace or "true #1". I don't think you can. You know one when you see one.
brett05
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I can accept that. Last year Shark was an ace. This year, not at all.
chibears55
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I dont think there are any true baseball Aces anymore.. Kershaw Scherzer and Hernandez may be the closest or only true ones left..
There team Aces and guys youd want to lead your rotation but none IMO are true baseball Aces like the Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Etc. were...
There team Aces and guys youd want to lead your rotation but none IMO are true baseball Aces like the Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Etc. were...
beckdawg
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Think you're undervaluing him a bit. Keep in mind where I stand on him. Of recent top 15 pitchers being traded you have the following trades
Didi Gregerious for Trevor Bauer deal
Tyler Skaggs in the Trumbo deal
Pineda for Montero deal
Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano
If you look at these trades as a collection the trend here is that as prospect the return wasn't quite as much as you would expect. Gregerious wasn't thought of as a star in the making. He was a defense first SS. Trumbo was.... well a power hitting LF. Pineda had already had successful MLB debut. Zambrano wasn't viewed as an ace. Even after a slow debut a position player like Baez as a top 10 talent holds considerable trade value.
beckdawg
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Feel like this is a bit too much "IN MY DAY!" for me. I look at it like this. If you had to win a playoff game would <x> pitcher be the guy you go with? If yes the guy is a #1.
chibears55
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And that guy could be yes today and no tomorrow
which is my point. ..
There no pitcher really that basically dominates during season and post season year after year anymore. .
Not talking about Ace for a series, month, season
There lots of those...
Im saying there no more true Aces left but maybe a couple , who stands on top year after year above the rest...
beckdawg
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I'd argue you're viewing things different in hindsight. Just judging by you're tone I'm sort of guessing you're throwing length of start into your definition which I mean I get. But that's not necessarily a pitchers fault. The game has just changed to be more reliant on bullpen than when Ryan pitched. If we just use an arbitrary number of 4 fWAR as the judge you get names like Kershaw, Kluber, Price, Hernandez, Hughes, Lester, Zimmerman, Sale, Scherzer, and Quintana as 5+ fWAR guys and Wainwright, Cueto, Richards, Strasburg, Greinke, Hamels, Samardzija and Bumgarner. If you compare that to the "old days" of say 1984 you're looking at Gooden, Sutcliffe, Mike Witt, Dave Stieb, Valenzuela, Doyle Alexander, Bert Blyleven(last of the 5+ fwAR guys), Alejandro Pena, Jerry Koosman, Storm Davis, Bud Black, Dan Petry, Mark Langston, Rick Rhoden, Mike Moore, Orel Hershiser, Jack Morris, Jim Beattle, and Ryan.
Maybe you argue fWAR isn't a precise measure here but you're talking 18 pitchers in 2014 and 19 in 1984 with 4+ fWAR and 10 pitchers in 2014 and 7 with 5+ fWAR in 1984. You're always going to have guys year to year who surprise. Storm Davis for example had his career year in 1984 with 4.7 fWAR at 22 and was never above 3 after that. I just feel people only remember the great players and forget some of the other guys.
chibears55
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Was never really talking old days vs today or comparing any stats...
Just made an opinion of my own that I dont feel there are any or as many true Aces in baseball today..
Pitchers that you know game after game will pretty much dominate and win consistently..
I named a couple players that could be that guy now..
I named a couple players of whom readers would recognize as to what type of pitchers (true baseball Aces) im referring to..
Im not disputing there aren't very good starters today, I just dont see them as true Aces like the ones I used as examples. . There a huge difference
beckdawg
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Obviously you're welcome to your opinion. All i'm really getting at is I'm willing to bet if you go back and look at those players on a game to game basis you'd see they aren't as dominant as you think. It's similar to the view people have on Jeter as "clutch" in my opinion. In other words, it's easy to think of Ryan with his 7 no-hitters/numerous shutouts and think man he's dominant. However, the guy started 773 games. Clearly he was a great pitcher over his career else we wouldn't be talking about him. But when you start talking game to game he's going to have let down's just like most pitchers today.
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The best pitchers in the league stay on top around 3 years. Kershaw and Hernandez are aces in any generation at any tome
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brett05
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huh?
OK, trying not to be sarcastic here,, please define what an ace is. In my opinion every guy you listed lines up behind Kershaw.
brett05
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I'll be interested to see if Baez even is a top 10 guy now. His failure in his limited time and his inability to make the team out of spring training has seriously hurt his value. Plus I'd argue that Noah has been seen as a higher ceiling than all the guys you listed.
chibears55
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And I mentioned Kershaw and Hernandez, along with Scherzer as ones who would be considered that dominant true Ace today..
My whole argument has been as you just named 2 for today, that there aren't as many true Aces today as there have been in the past..
That all im saying. ..
brett05
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I like that definition. If that is the case, I think there's quite a bit of guys that qualify for Ace.
chibears55
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See post 57
brett05
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