J Freeman is better than Luke Kuechley

[FirstTimer]

No you seem confused. I am arguing two separate points.

1. I don't recall any empirical evidence you provided that proved this definitively about the season in question. If you wish to re-debate something from 5 months ago then present your evidence. I am not just accepting you claiming to have provided it just because you said so.

2. One of the reason I doubt this claim is because in the same thread, FT was taking me to task for using team passing stats to support Amos, I don't recall you admonishing him by saying using team stats are fine.

So there seems to be an inconsistency here why you apparently hold me to standards you don't hold FT or yourself to. You use words interchangeable and that's cool. And the Right hand of Rory uses team stats while the left hand of FT says I shouldn't use team stats. It's a nice little tag team there where you guys pretend like people don't view you guys as one in the same despite the fact all you and FT do is thank bang each others posts.

This is a flat out lie.

 

[remydat]

Two separate thoughts. First thought, I asked you "Why isn't it feasible?", because you didn't really give a reason, and you obviously did not respond to my question. My second thought was, instead of PFF dividing the workload up by teams, have them divide it up by positional groups. You haven't really responded to that, either.

I had already explained my first proposal. It was very simple. How you can think that my second, different proposal is me 'reiterating what I've been saying all along' is completely incomprehensible...its a different proposal.

John Lynch: I want 3 first round picks for our #2 overall.
Ryan Pace: That's just not feasible.
John Lynch: Why isn't that feasible? How about 2 first round picks and Leonard Floyd for our #2 overall?
Ryan Pace: Wait, are you still talking about wanting 3 first round picks?

I gave a reason in the original post.

I can defend/explain my opinion with thoughts. You can't defend/explain PFF grades, because you don't know the calculations or who is doing the calculations. I would rather the PFF grades be done entirely by one person, because then you would at least have some semblance of consistency throughout the league. Having so many different people do the PFF grades make player comparison completely pointless...like how one PFF grader had Adrian Amos as an '85' while another PFF grader had Harrison Smith as an '83'.

What is the point of having individual subjective player grades that cannot be compared to other players?

The reason it's not feasible is because of the volume of work required. Duh!. Hence why I used the example of saying it would be like having a single judge or jury review all cases to ensure the law is applied consistently. Asking a single person to review thousands of players and be able to publish the data in a reasonable time frame is Special person.

Second your example above, is one train of thought in a single post. When your posts were separated by several other posts, it is not clear. You already know this because in your response you switched from asking why to using the word IF.

 

[remydat]

I absolutely did not. Link said posts.

On top of that if you're discussing this with Rory what do my opinions have to do with his views on things?

You're just trying to deflect again and are flat out lying about one thing and bringing up irrelevant points on the other hand.

Sure when Rory links the empirical data. You guys are a package deal I'm afraid.

 

[remydat]

I will end my involvement in this thread with a final question to remydat...do you view PFF grades as being 'stats'?

Do you view why as being the same as if? Answer that and you have the answer to your question.

 

[emaugust]

He just took PED's and was suspended for a few games

At least he was trying.

 

[FirstTimer]

Sure when Rory links the empirical data. You guys are a package deal I'm afraid.

I repeat:

I absolutely did not. Link said posts.

Stop flat out lying and making shit up and link the posts you say occurred.

Go for it.

 

[Bearly]

I was wrong about Trubiksy was I not? Although not sure your point. Who goes around advertising when they are wrong?

I don't see what you were wrong about in that case. Nothing is yet proven. I could be mistaken but don't recall you making a big deal about who gets drafted where. Just a strong personal preference for another guy that got taken 10 picks later.

 

[Bearly]

From the original thread:






















Amazingly, this continues on for several more pages, with you refusing to answer any questions and offering zero insight.

[video=youtube;VyUd1QVyCnM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyUd1QVyCnM[/video]

I think he may even be wrong about being wrong.

 

[remydat]

From the original thread:






















Amazingly, this continues on for several more pages, with you refusing to answer any questions and offering zero insight.

[video=youtube;VyUd1QVyCnM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyUd1QVyCnM[/video]

You said you provided empirical data. None of the data you provided was specific to Harrison. You spoke generally about the Vikings D initially which doesn't prove anything about Harrison specifically which was the whole point of my response. I then provided the link to the below data.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-big-play-differential/2016/

My argument still remains. Amos was the highest graded player at the time in our secondary. At the time of the above, the Bears had less big passing plays than the Vikings and Amos was playing with shittier players than Smith was. So despite the Vikings being a better overall pass defense, to claim Smith was better in 2016 (2015) based on empirical data is a stretch. Their traditional stats were fairly close on a per snap basis including their their lack of interceptions and PDs and the Bears D gave up less big passing plays than the Vikings despite the Vikings have better all around players.

So when I look at the above and then look at the PFF grades, the impression I get is that Amos didn't give up a lot of big plays but does not get TOs. The reason the Bears passing D was atrocious overall was because virtually everyone in the secondary was poor.

You have no empirical data that proves anything about Harrison because Harrison was playing with better over all players and yet the Vikings still gave up a decent amount of big plays.

 

[bearmick]

How can this still be going on?

 

[remydat]

I don't see what you were wrong about in that case. Nothing is yet proven. I could be mistaken but don't recall you making a big deal about who gets drafted where. Just a strong personal preference for another guy that got taken 10 picks later.

No I was referring to early in the season when Trubisky first started getting buzz from a few posters and long before it was clear he was going to be a top pick, I said I would be shocked if he was a first rounder. Might have been 2 games after the VT stinker. I believe Wild Card may have been one of the posters that was on Trubisky very early and I thought didshe was one of them as well hence why I mentioned it.

 

[remydat]

How can this still be going on?

Simple. Rory came off his latest ban or vacation and started digging up threads. Last post was like from 5/25 before Rory decided on 5/30 to revisit the discussion.

 

[FirstTimer]

You said you provided empirical data. None of the data you provided was specific to Harrison. You spoke generally about the Vikings D initially which doesn't prove anything about Harrison specifically which was the whole point of my response. I then provided the link to the below data.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-big-play-differential/2016/

My argument still remains. Amos was the highest graded player at the time in our secondary. At the time of the above, the Bears had less big passing plays than the Vikings and Amos was playing with shittier players than Smith was. So despite the Vikings being a better overall pass defense, to claim Smith was better in 2016 (2015) based on empirical data is a stretch. Their traditional stats were fairly close on a per snap basis including their their lack of interceptions and PDs and the Bears D gave up less big passing plays than the Vikings despite the Vikings have better all around players.

So when I look at the above and then look at the PFF grades, the impression I get is that Amos didn't give up a lot of big plays but does not get TOs. The reason the Bears passing D was atrocious overall was because virtually everyone in the secondary was poor.

You have no empirical data that proves anything about Harrison because Harrison was playing with better over all players and yet the Vikings still gave up a decent amount of big plays.

Yet Smith was part of one of the best pass defenses in the NFL...where as Amos was not.

To which you have yet to respond to:

Do you also find it interesting that the Vikings and Bears can give up the same number of big pass plays, yet the Vikings pass defense is remarkably better statistically than the Bears pass defense? Perhaps the "big pass play" stat is somewhat meaningless, since it cannot be correlated to overall success? Perhaps the actual stats confirm my thought that "conservative scheme" isn't an 'unprovable statement' on my part, its in fact the reality of the situation that can be proven with statistics?

On a side note, I actually cited the Vikings defensive passing statistics vs. the Bears defensive passing statistics, not "big pass plays". If you need further evidence, then compare the 2015 Vikings defensive passing statistics vs. the 2015 Bears defensive passing statistics. The reason why I put emphasis on these statistics is because THEY ACTUALLY HAPPENED. They represent reality.

 

[iueyedoc]

Simple. Rory came off his latest ban or vacation and started digging up threads. Last post was like from 5/25 before Rory decided on 5/30 to revisit the discussion.

 

[remydat]

Yet Smith was part of one of the best pass defenses in the NFL...where as Amos was not.

To which you have yet to respond to:

I already responded to that. He was part of one of the best pass defenses because he has good teammates. It's hard to be a part of one of the best past defenses when your teammates are shit.

Again you can't say traditional stats support Harrison as the reason for the great Vikings pass D. The traditional stats are more favorable to the CBs and Sendejo than they are to Harrison who looks like more of a run stopper judging by the stats. And the fact that where the Vikings pass D got beat was deep leads one to believe their S play wasn't all that great. So again it's odd to hype of Harrison for overseeing a pass D that gave up more big plays than Amos and the Bears. I think the stats show that the Vikings CB play was good and they didn't give up the short stuff but they were vulnerable deep.

 

[FirstTimer]

He was part of one of the best pass defenses because he has good teammates.

Yeah, not like Smith has proven to be an elite NFL safety for nearly half a decade.................

Again you can't say traditional stats support Harrison as the reason for the great Vikings pass D.

Yes. You can. Smith has proven to be a very good/great safety on a top NFL defense of MULTIPLE YEARS. Smith was not a rookie in 2016.

And the fact that where the Vikings pass D got beat was deep leads one to believe their S play wasn't all that great.

Did you watch Harrison Smith play football in 2016?

So again it's odd to hype of Harrison for overseeing a pass D that gave up more big plays than Amos and the Bears.

Did you watch Harrison Smith play football in 2016?

I think the stats show that the Vikings CB play was good and they didn't give up the short stuff but they were vulnerable deep.

Did you watch Harrison Smith play football in 2016?

 

[FirstTimer]

remy in here defending grades of players that he didn't watch...Great stuff!

 

[remydat]

I guess similar to "stats" and "ratings", you use the terms "empirical data" and "data specific to Harrison Smith" interchangeably? That is the only logical explanation.

No you said, empirical data proves Harrison is better but your empirical data doesn't prove Harrison is better. It may prove the Vikings secondary was better.

Sorry for stating the obvious, but I guess I need to post this again:

Do you also find it interesting that the Vikings and Bears can give up the same number of big pass plays, yet the Vikings pass defense is remarkably better statistically than the Bears pass defense? Perhaps the "big pass play" stat is somewhat meaningless, since it cannot be correlated to overall success? Perhaps the actual stats confirm my thought that "conservative scheme" isn't an 'unprovable statement' on my part, its in fact the reality of the situation that can be proven with statistics?

On a side note, I actually cited the Vikings defensive passing statistics vs. the Bears defensive passing statistics, not "big pass plays". If you need further evidence, then compare the 2015 Vikings defensive passing statistics vs. the 2015 Bears defensive passing statistics. The reason why I put emphasis on these statistics is because THEY ACTUALLY HAPPENED. They represent reality.

I do find it interesting and I think what it tells me is their CBs are much better than the Bears CBs. Not sure why I would attribute that success solely to a guy that had like 0 Ints and 2 PDs when the main area you would think him responsible for in the Vikings D (ie deep) is where the Vikings performed worse than the Bears.

Also, not sure why you are bringing up past stats. I never argued that Smith wasn't a good S or had a good year in the past. I argued that his traditional stats in 2016 does lead one to believe he had a great year. Hence why I like to see where PFF has a guy like him since the traditional stats don't support his previous reputation.

 

[FirstTimer]

Also, not sure why you are bringing up past stats. I never argued that Smith wasn't a good S or had a good year in the past. I argued that his traditional stats in 2016 does lead one to believe he had a great year.

Did you watch Harrison Smith play football in 2016?

 

[remydat]

Yeah, not like Smith has proven to be an elite NFL safety for nearly half a decade.................



Yes. You can. Smith has proven to be a very good/great safety on a top NFL defense of MULTIPLE YEARS. Smith was not a rookie in 2016.


Did you watch Harrison Smith play football in 2016?


Did you watch Harrison Smith play football in 2016?


Did you watch Harrison Smith play football in 2016?

Good players have down years. No one is arguing that Smith wasn't a great player in the past. I am saying his stats don't unequivocally prove he was a great or elite player in 2016.

It's like you guys are arguing because he was elite in the past, it must mean he was elite in 2016.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/14945/harrison-smith

Here are his traditional stats. I see a guy that was a major factor in the passing game in the past whose production has dropped off. To argue he was still elite or great in 2016 based off of traditional stats seems really odd to me. The dudes lack of turnovers and PDs despite playing with much better players around him is a bit concerning to me but I guess you want to praise the guy because of past performance. This is especially true when during the actual years he made his reputation he had more interceptions and passes defensed than he did in 2016. All the information from traditional stats teams me it was the Vikings CBs and maybe the other S that made the big plays and clamped down on teams not Smith. It also helps too that they have a good pass rush.